Evidence for God from Science

Kurieuo wrote: You know, I've had one friend tell me the world would be much better if humans simply did not exist. No one polluting the world, no wars and massive evils committed, no this species and that species becoming extinct, no natural environments being corrupted and laid to waste. Is such thinking something that should not be had?

I think theres only one that can truly say whether it would be better for humans to exist or not.
God Himself.

God's wisdom is not the same as human wisdom. So really for any human to try to answer that, is putting themselves in God's place. Saying they know whats 'better'. We have such limited knowledge. None of us can see the beginning to the the end. We havent even solved the 'problem of pain' yet. We dont fully understand suffering or how it is always used.

So unless a person has gained some higher knowledge, it seems (at least to me as a Christian) futile to make such statements like that.

Kurieuo wrote:

RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:As an addendum, while I'm playing with you Kenny in my last post, I appreciate you weighing in. I must say, I'm disappointed no other residential non-Christians here have taken up the question as yet.

If it makes you feel better, I can pretend I'm atheist, and answer your question.

You'd just be pretending eh? Feel free to answer, I'm feeling a bit disappointed more didn't respond.

I think if I were an atheist, I'd be a lot smarter than I am now. I think religion has dumbed me down.

As an atheist, I'd say that you can't do as you please. You do as you must. Do as you are predetermined to do. There is no free will. It's just an illusion. Your brain neurons are playing tricks on you. That's my opinion, subjectively speaking of course. Or is it not my opinion? Maybe I was forced to say that, because my brain determined that I must say that. Argh!! This atheism/determinism stuff is too difficult for my predetermined brain to understand.

Nessa wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: You know, I've had one friend tell me the world would be much better if humans simply did not exist. No one polluting the world, no wars and massive evils committed, no this species and that species becoming extinct, no natural environments being corrupted and laid to waste. Is such thinking something that should not be had?

I think theres only one that can truly say whether it would be better for humans to exist or not.
God Himself.

God's wisdom is not the same as human wisdom. So really for any human to try to answer that, is putting themselves in God's place. Saying they know whats 'better'. We have such limited knowledge. None of us can see the beginning to the the end. We havent even solved the 'problem of pain' yet. We dont fully understand suffering or how it is always used.

So unless a person has gained some higher knowledge, it seems (at least to me as a Christian) futile to make such statements like that.

Agree, but this friend wasn't Christian so didn't believe in God's wisdom. I often share his sentiments though, seeing the evil in the hearts of humanity of which I'm associated with by nature and have become a participant. It seems better to me at times, if humanity never existed, as I've probably shared with you.

RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:As an addendum, while I'm playing with you Kenny in my last post, I appreciate you weighing in. I must say, I'm disappointed no other residential non-Christians here have taken up the question as yet.

If it makes you feel better, I can pretend I'm atheist, and answer your question.

You'd just be pretending eh? Feel free to answer, I'm feeling a bit disappointed more didn't respond.

I think if I were an atheist, I'd be a lot smarter than I am now. I think religion has dumbed me down.

As an atheist, I'd say that you can't do as you please. You do as you must. Do as you are predetermined to do. There is no free will. It's just an illusion. Your brain neurons are playing tricks on you. That's my opinion, subjectively speaking of course. Or is it not my opinion? Maybe I was forced to say that, because my brain determined that I must say that. Argh!! This atheism/determinism stuff is too difficult for my predetermined brain to understand.

You sound confused. See what being atheist does to you?

I was kinda surprised that Kenny was advocating for Free Will. Until I realized that he was actually advocating for Free Willy. He subjectively thinks killer whales should not be in captivity.

Kurieuo wrote:

RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:As an addendum, while I'm playing with you Kenny in my last post, I appreciate you weighing in. I must say, I'm disappointed no other residential non-Christians here have taken up the question as yet.

If it makes you feel better, I can pretend I'm atheist, and answer your question.

You'd just be pretending eh? Feel free to answer, I'm feeling a bit disappointed more didn't respond.

I think if I were an atheist, I'd be a lot smarter than I am now. I think religion has dumbed me down.

As an atheist, I'd say that you can't do as you please. You do as you must. Do as you are predetermined to do. There is no free will. It's just an illusion. Your brain neurons are playing tricks on you. That's my opinion, subjectively speaking of course. Or is it not my opinion? Maybe I was forced to say that, because my brain determined that I must say that. Argh!! This atheism/determinism stuff is too difficult for my predetermined brain to understand.

You sound confused. See what being atheist does to you?

Confused? No. My chemical reactions are just a little "off".

Is it true that atheism is a non-prophet organization?

Is it true that If there were no God, there would be no Atheists?

RickD wrote:Is it true that atheism is a non-prophet organization?

Is it true that If there were no God, there would be no Atheists?

Start a new thread with your side questions please!

Kenny wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: What is unfair? I think the whole world is unfair!

Let's say I have a blacklist of people in my mind who've crossed me in one way or another that I'd like to off.
Then in the finale act, I'll just do myself in also as a kind of self-retribution for participating in it all.

Maybe you'd say, "No!" I should not do such. Beyond saying you disagree what then? Nothing.
Why shouldn't I do as I please, it's my life to do with as I please!

If you and I disagree on what is fair, the best I could do is to get society involved and perhaps make my case to them in an effort to get a law passed on the issue. Of course you have the same option as well; whoever makes the best case wins.

Kurieuo wrote: Whoever makes the best case wins, really?

Yes! In this particular case, whoever succeeds in getting society to enact a law around what they feels is right wins.

Kurieuo wrote: I'd say many have succeeded in doing what they please.
Take some mass shooting wherein the shooter didn't care about dying, or 9/11...

Do you seriously think you won against these with your "best case" to some social system they clearly didn't care an ounce for? Perhaps you both won.

Such a person on a suicide mission will probably kill lots of people, before he gets killed…..what’s your point?

Kurieuo wrote: No point, but "your winning" seems to be rather lackluster and a hollow victory.

In this context “winning” is getting society to agree with what you feel is right. Humans are natural social creatures, so when you can get the backing of the society they have chosen to become a part of; to support their version of right vs wrong, they get to live in a social environment where their version of right is enforced by the law of society

Kurieuo wrote:Yes, I can see how "society" agreeing means one is winning.



Sadly, in Southpark society you're the loser it seems in many episodes. But hey, at least our modern society wouldn't condone such violence against you, I don't think... maybe laugh, but not condone.

I don’t do South Park, I don’t have the patience to sit through 7 plus minutes of it, but if they want to consider me a loser; I’m okay with that considering the source.

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: Furthermore, I'm not sure I understand the reason why such "should not" have done as they pleased despite laws they evidently disagree with. After all, it's their life, not societies'.

If you choose to live by yourself; away from society, you can do whatever you want and suffer the consequences thereof.
Because the society of people will outnumber you, you must take their laws into consideration before doing as you please. My point only applies if you choose to live in a society of other people.

Kurieuo wrote:Yes, tell that to those who suicide kill themselves. Don't you know they go straight to paradise? They got what they wanted for sacrificing their life. A "higher" society agreed with them if you will, just as meaningful as any finite human society which'll die out right?

Yes those types do exist. As far as them going to paradise, that is a theistic position; remember who you are talking to? Is there a point to this?

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: The most I see you could say is such a person was a loser in the sense that they were a lost to society. But then, remove yourself from your shoes and place yourself in theirs -- as lost to society and vice-versa society being lost on them, should they not do as they please even if that involved killing lots of people and in their eyes making a lasting improvement upon the world?

As I said before, if you live by yourself and stay away from other people, you can do what you want and suffer the consequences that may result.

Kurieuo wrote:Bah, to someone who cares zero for the consequences that society might pay them, such matters little.

Yeah those types usually either wind up in prison or dead. Either way; problem solved.

Kurieuo wrote: It seems, you turned away from Christianity due to some fire and brimstone preaching, and yet you think you win due to whatever "fire and brimstone" society might serve up? You haven't strayed much from the Christianity you were brought up with Kenny.

Just because I don’t agree with all of Christianity doesn’t mean I can’t agree with any of it.

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: You know, I've had one friend tell me the world would be much better if humans simply did not exist. No one polluting the world, no wars and massive evils committed, no this species and that species becoming extinct, no natural environments being corrupted and laid to waste. Is such thinking something that should not be had?

This is a huge planet with lots of deserted areas where people do not exist. Perhaps he could go to one of those places and live by himself

Kurieuo wrote:Perhaps a terrorist could go to a deserted area and live alone, but if he wants to die killing you, and he succeeds, then he wins regardless of what you or any one "society" says. Right? Well, at least you won because the law in society didn't agree with him killing you. You have that I suppose.

My reference to winning was about people who do care about living, who do care about doing right, and who do care about living peacefully with others; not whatever it is you are describing now.

Kurieuo wrote:It's alright Kenny, no one would seriously enjoy killing you. Then again...




Sorry, now I'm beginning to understand why you feel acceptance by society is so important.

[/quote]
Such a sick person who has no respect for others, or the rules of society will not have respect for your God says either, right?

Ken

First time I saw Kenny and ever since, I always thought of southpark.

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Yes, tell that to those who suicide kill themselves. Don't you know they go straight to paradise? They got what they wanted for sacrificing their life. A "higher" society agreed with them if you will, just as meaningful as any finite human society which'll die out right?

Yes those types do exist. As far as them going to paradise, that is a theistic position; remember who you are talking to? Is there a point to this?

They think they're going to paradise, but they're probably not. The point is they feel justified by a different society.

On the whole though I'm not sure this is a worthwhile argument. It's easy to ask why non-theists would try to work out and do what's right but as Kenny said we're social creatures and for most people having some kind of conscience and wanting to fit in with society do the job. Of course there are those who are idiots / anti-social / drug-addicted and desperate / greedy and ruthless, and I'm sure they've all increased with the decline of biblical thinking in our society, but most people still seem to be brought up with and retain a reasonable conscience and a desire to be a responsible member of society.

Well, if I didn't believe in God, seriously believed when I died that was it, I'd sure do more as I please, and likely to my detriment. Perhaps that shows a character flaw, really I see such as being pragmatic. What is useful and beneficial to me, that is what I'd do and pursue. Why, I think I'd be a quite scary person to be around.

Kurieuo wrote:Well, if I didn't believe in God, seriously believed when I died that was it, I'd sure do more as I please, and likely to my detriment. Perhaps that shows a character flaw, really I see such as being pragmatic. What is useful and beneficial to me, that is what I'd do and pursue. Why, I think I'd be a quite scary person to be around.

Hmm. But you think so deeply about things. Would you really be that self-centred?

I guess I've known plenty of people who generally seemed to want the best for everyone else, and most of them weren't Christians (but many of them were). Of course they're probably each their own number one person, with their family close behind, but there's still a sense of mostly wanting to be a good person. The difference is that Christians are aware that it's God who's number one, that we're all equally important and that sometimes he wants us to put others first.

Working in early childhood education and care I see social morality reflected in the Australian Early Years Learning Framework, which has been around for a few years now. One of the five learning outcomes is 'children are connected with and contribute to their world', which involves considering others, being aware of fairness and having empathy. Developing these qualities in children is obviously seen as contributing to a good society - nearly everyone wants the next generation to be responsible citizens and not crims, thugs and hoons.

Kurieuo wrote:Well, if I didn't believe in God, seriously believed when I died that was it, I'd sure do more as I please, and likely to my detriment. Perhaps that shows a character flaw, really I see such as being pragmatic. What is useful and beneficial to me, that is what I'd do and pursue. Why, I think I'd be a quite scary person to be around.

Do me a favor; maintain your religion. Don't allow anybody to cause you to loose your faith in God; because I would hate to see what you might be capable of if you did.

Ken

Ken?

I'd love to see what you'd be capable of if you found God