Evidence for God from Science

Ice: Ironically, the Christian God makes the most sense to me. However, I do not have enough faith to accept Jesus Christ as the incarnation of God

A lot to unpack here. But God DOES hear the sincere prayers of those who want to know the truth of His existences, and who want to know WHO He is (amongst the choices they may or may not know of). Cornelius, the Roman centurion, amongst the first of the Gentile converts of Christ, did not yet know Jesus, nor the Gospel, only first hearing it because God honored his prayers of seeking Him, by sending Peter with the Gospel message. Which also relates to WHAT prayers of unbelievers does God listen to: Its those whom are seeking His will for them and their lives.

Note that God HAS ALREADY and ALWAYS known of every single prayer every person who ever lives will ever utter. And He also knows what His will is and precisely what His response will be to those prayers, as He interacts with humans in real time during their lives on earth. The key to prayers being effective are, is the prayer request submitted in God's will to answer it - whether at all, or whether in a way different than requested. Sometimes NO answer to prayer IS an answer - that the prayer was not something in God's will for us. No doubt, God knows our hearts and minds as to what we pray - our motives, sincerity - all of that. But we also must realize that while God IS concerned about our well-being and needs here on earth, that He is far more concerned with our eternal needs and spiritual growth. He is not a money machine, although people act as if He is. And no doubt, God has considered every possible aspect of one's prayers - as to how they do or do not line up for His will for them, and as how they also line of with His collective will for countless others.

Lastly, we're told in Scripture that "your Father knows what you need before you ask him" (Matthew 6:8). And, "For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words" (Romans 8:26).

Ice, my constant prayer for you would be that you feverently and sincerely ask God to show you the truth about Who Jesus is. Never forget, that of the 12 disciples and the one whom replaced Judas (Matthias), all but one of those men continued to preach that they had seen the risen Christ after the Resurrection. THINK about that! Would all of those men risk what happened to Jesus, a brutal scouraging and unthinkably horrible death, IF THEY KNEW THAT JESUS DID NOT RISE AFTER DEATH AND THEY NEVER SAW HIM ALIVE AGAIN???!!! The other, the Apostle John, also continued to preach a resurrected Christ and suffered greatly for that. WHY would they ALL risk that - IF they had, subsequent to the Crucifixion, never seen the risen Christ? As they would have ALL realized that Jesus was a complete fraud and madman, thinking and claiming Himself to be God, who was only a deluded lunatic that 1) got Himself killed, and 2) if they continued His Messiah narrative, they would likely (and did!) suffer the very same fate.

Ice, also consider the Apostle Paul - an upcoming rockstar amongst the religious establishment, gaining great favor and prestige for his reknowned zeal for rooting out Christians, having them beaten, killed, etc. One of the most educated men and great intellectuals of his time, the "Jew's JEW," whom hated Christians and their "deluded Jesus cult," dedicated to eradicating them - one must ask, why, WHY did Paul suddenly and almost immediately GO OVER TO THE SIDE OF THOSE HE FORMERLY DESPISED???!!! What could have possibly have been his motive? He lost and gave up everything that he had considered important - his prestige, status, security of being with the ultimate Jewish status quo - for WHAT??? Beatings, prision, impoverishment, the constant threat of death, great danger, being deprived of food, shelter, etc. Was he ALSO a madman? Does not the only thing that makes sense is that ALL these many men actually encountered the RISEN Christ? Why ELSE??? READ their writings - scrutinized by millions of Christians and scholars, for centuries. Their collective influence has been a major force in Western thinking and spiritual thought. Their writings, the most sober and rational arguments laid out with almost classical thinking and approach. Their relation of their own sad actions, fears, doubts, and disarray prior to seeing the risen Jesus, honestly recorded. This ragtag crew of men absolutely changed the world forever. WE mark time itself by the approximated birth of Christ. All this because some mad, obscure Jewish rabbi got himself killed (and nearly everyone who followed Him), in some godforsaken Roman backwater place like Palestine?

Ice, fervently pray one key pray: God, WHO really was Jesus? Was He part of your Trinity? Was He GOD??? If you really want the truth, 1) DESIRE the truth, 2) be prepared to embrace it and follow it!

IceMobster wrote:However, I do not have enough faith to accept Jesus Christ as the incarnation of God. Hence, I don't agree with the satiation of the hunger through Christ.

Yes, I understand that. We have different worldviews. My worldview on Christ as the incarnation of God is based on my acceptance of the historical truth of Scripture. The Bible predicts that before the arrival of Christ at His, let's call it "Second Incarnation" that there would be a famine. A famine causes hunger. This is the described famine:

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

IceMobster wrote:Moreover, what of all the people who "satiate their hunger" true another faith? They seem perfectly fine, you know.

Sure. Generally, most of them do seem perfectly fine. But is who or what they are worshipping, true? In my Christian views on eschatology, even if all these people from other faiths worship something else, they do not escape Christ's judgement. How "perfectly fine" do you think they will be when in the future, they are faced with the reality of standing before Christ, knowingly recognizing that they spent their entire lives worshipping something that they thought was God but was not?

IceMobster wrote:As you can see from the title, I asked HOW do you pray and not DO you pray...

I did answer how I pray. I said:

Katabole wrote: When I pray, I always ask the prayers directly to God the Father, not Christ or the Holy Spirit but I do ask the Father to fulfill those prayers through Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I did go into more detail, as to help you understand.

IceMobster wrote:Also, wouldn't it be wiser to replace the first word with "if"?

No. I would not replace the word "When" with "If". Because I believe the Bible to be a complete book and that it is the Word of God, that is, it is the exact message that God wanted to convey to humanity. The Bible claims to be the Word of God. I have read what people have said about the Bible in the past. That the Bible contains the "words of God" but it is not "The Word of God". That is an impossible, illogical statement. The Bible either is God's Word. Or it is not. If the Bible is not what it claims to be, it is not only not a "good" book. It is unworthy of further attention. So when I said:

Katabole wrote:When you accept Christ as your Savior,

I am referring to another few verses that you are probably unaware of.

Isaiah 45:23: "I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."


Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Those verses prophesy of a time in the future when everyone who ever lived, including you and I, will admit with our own mouths what those verses clearly state and I specifically underlined because they will clearly see the truth at that time. If those prophecies are true (which I believe they are), then it is not a matter of "if" as you would say. But "When".

I don't really know how else to proceed, as you have claimed you do not have enough faith and I do not want to waste either your time or my own, using Scripture to base my argument on, when you do not look on the Bible as the same way I do and I feel I would do a disservice to you at this time by quoting it anymore.

However, this link may help you, at least to understand my worldview.

How to Enjoy the Bible by E W Bullinger

http://philologos.org/__eb-htetb/

Philip wrote:IF THEY KNEW THAT JESUS DID NOT RISE AFTER DEATH AND THEY NEVER SAW HIM ALIVE AGAIN???!!! The other, the Apostle John, also continued to preach a resurrected Christ and suffered greatly for that. WHY would they ALL risk that - IF they had, subsequent to the Crucifixion, never seen the risen Christ?

Yeah, they willfully and without hesitation gave their lives for Christ. Well, men willfully and without hesitation gave their lives for certain people/ideologies, as well.

Philip wrote: ...All this because some mad, obscure Jewish rabbi got himself killed (and nearly everyone who followed Him), in some godforsaken Roman backwater place like Palestine?

A bit more complex than that, perhaps, but, yes that is a possibility.

Btw, there is no need for you to explain me the perfectness of God. I am aware of the things you stated in the 2nd and 3rd paragraph.

Katabole wrote: Sure. Generally, most of them do seem perfectly fine. But is who or what they are worshipping, true? In my Christian views on eschatology, even if all these people from other faiths worship something else, they do not escape Christ's judgement. How "perfectly fine" do you think they will be when in the future, they are faced with the reality of standing before Christ, knowingly recognizing that they spent their entire lives worshipping something that they thought was God but was not?

Eh, they can say (and they do) the same. Imagine you were born in Algeria. You were raised a Muslim. You have obviously heard about Christianity and Christ, but you decide to stay in the religion and worship a God you see as the truth. Would you not say the last sentence as well but change the word Christ with Allah?

Katabole wrote: No. I would not replace the word "When" with "If". Because I believe the Bible to be a complete book and that it is the Word of God, that is, it is the exact message that God wanted to convey to humanity. The Bible claims to be the Word of God. I have read what people have said about the Bible in the past. That the Bible contains the "words of God" but it is not "The Word of God". That is an impossible, illogical statement. The Bible either is God's Word. Or it is not. If the Bible is not what it claims to be, it is not only not a "good" book. It is unworthy of further attention.
Those verses prophesy of a time in the future when everyone who ever lived, including you and I, will admit with our own mouths what those verses clearly state and I specifically underlined because they will clearly see the truth at that time. If those prophecies are true (which I believe they are), then it is not a matter of "if" as you would say. But "When".

I don't really know how else to proceed, as you have claimed you do not have enough faith and I do not want to waste either your time or my own, using Scripture to base my argument on, when you do not look on the Bible as the same way I do and I feel I would do a disservice to you at this time by quoting it anymore.

Woah. You really do believe at one point in time, the whole world would be Christian? That is absurd, lol. Perhaps at the Second coming of Christ...?
Anyways, do you believe God killed people as stated in the OT?

IceMobster wrote:Would you not say the last sentence as well but change the word Christ with Allah?

No, not after studying Judaism, Christianity and Islam as much as I have.

The Jews believe Jesus died.

The Muslims believe Jesus did not die.

The Christians believe Jesus died and rose again.

Just from those three statements, someone is lying and someone is telling the truth. I happen to believe the last statement is true and historically accurate, based on historic records and cultural influence. I'll even quote an atheist to back that statement up:

"For the normative self-understanding of modernity, Christianity has functioned as more than just a precursor or catalyst. Universalistic egalitarianism, from which sprang the ideals of freedom and a collective life in solidarity, the autonomous conduct of life and emancipation, the individual morality of conscience, human rights and democracy, is the direct legacy of the Judaic ethic of justice and the Christian ethic of love. This legacy, substantially unchanged, has been the object of a continual critical reappropriation and reinterpretation. Up to this very day there is no alternative to it. Christianity, and nothing else, is the ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy, the benchmarks of Western civilization. We continue to nourish ourselves from this source. Everything else is postmodern chatter."
Leading German atheist sociologist and historian Jurgen Habermas, 1999

IceMobster wrote:You really do believe at one point in time, the whole world would be Christian?

Yes, it is written. It will be a Theocratic monarchy with Christ as it's King.

IceMobster wrote:That is absurd, lol.

From your worldview, I am sure it is. But I believe atheism is absurd.

Atheism has no answer to death, no ultimate hope to give. it is an empty and sterile worldview, which leaves us in a closed universe that will ultimately incinerate any last trace that we ever existed. It is quite literally a "hope-less" philosophy. Atheism's story ends at the grave. But the resurrection of Jesus opens the door on a bigger story.

Nietzsche struggled with deep depression most of his adult life. I believe he really wanted to accept that there was a personal God who loved him but his intellect kept pushing him into the farthest depths of nihilism.

The atheist Bertrand Russell claimed that science was the only way to truth because he said, "What science cannot explain, humanity cannot know." Russell was a good writer but not a very good philosopher and an even worse logician. In schools of philosophy, his statement is known as a logically incoherent statement. That is, it follows the same line of rules of formal argument but it is incomprehensible, therefore making it a false statement. Is Russell's statement a scientific one? No. Therefore we cannot know it.
Science cannot explain even the simple question of a child, "What is the purpose of my life?" Science is limited and that is no insult to science.

IceMobster wrote:Anyways, do you believe God killed people as stated in the OT?

Yes. It is called Divine Justice based on the God of the Bible's righteous indignation. You should probably read Paul Copan's book, 'Is God a Moral Monster?' if you really want to understand the question you asked me.

Katabole wrote:Just from those three statements, someone is lying and someone is telling the truth. I happen to believe the last statement is true and historically accurate, based on historic records and cultural influence. I'll even quote an atheist to back that statement up:...

That quote does not, in any way, back up that Christians believe Jesus died and rose again. You can not know whether that or some above statement is true.

Katabole wrote:Yes, it is written. It will be a Theocratic monarchy with Christ as it's King.

So, the second coming of Christ. http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 13&t=40886

Katabole wrote:From your worldview, I am sure it is. But I believe atheism is absurd.

Well, damn. That is one point we agree upon!
But, yeah, I suppose I should have said it otherwise: it is absurd up until the point of the second coming of Christ.

The next paragraphs are quite nice. I didn't know about the last one.

Katabole wrote:

IceMobster wrote:Anyways, do you believe God killed people as stated in the OT?

Yes. It is called Divine Justice based on the God of the Bible's righteous indignation. You should probably read Paul Copan's book, 'Is God a Moral Monster?' if you really want to understand the question you asked me.

Indignation? Since when does God have emotions? Emotions would limit his perfectness by making him dependent of time. I don't see how would such a Being and Existence itself deny the greatest gift it has given to man and kill certain people.

IceMobster wrote:Since when does God have emotions?

• Anger – Psalm 7:11; Deuteronomy 9:22; Romans 1:18
• Laughter – Psalm 37:13; Psalm 2:4; Proverbs 1:26
• Compassion – Psalm 135:14; Judges 2:18; Deuteronomy 32:36
• Grief – Genesis 6:6; Psalm 78:40
• Love – 1 John 4:8; John 3:16; Jeremiah 31:3
• Hate – Proverbs 6:16; Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:5
• Jealousy – Exodus 20:5; Exodus 34:14; Joshua 24:19
• Joy – Zephaniah 3:17; Isaiah 62:5; Jeremiah 32:41

IceMobster wrote:Emotions would limit his perfectness by making him dependent of time. I don't see how would such a Being and Existence itself deny the greatest gift it has given to man and kill certain people.

I do not see it that way. God’s righteousness (or justice) is the natural expression of His holiness. If He is infinitely pure, (as God claims to be) then He must be opposed to all sin, and that opposition to sin must be demonstrated in His treatment of His living creations. When we read that God is righteous or just, we are being assured that His actions toward us are in perfect agreement with His holy nature. Justice, or righteous indignation, when used of God, is a name we give to the way God is, nothing more; and when God acts justly He is not doing so to conform to an independent criterion, but simply acting like Himself in a given situation. God is His own self-existent principle of moral equity, and when He sentences evil men or rewards the righteous, He simply acts like Himself from within, uninfluenced by anything that is not Himself. God understands our emotions (since He created us with the capacity to feel them), and His own emotions continually flow from His perfection.

Seriously Ice, in all humbleness, pick up Paul Copan's book and give it a good read. He goes into greater detail than I could here and I honestly believe it would really help you understand some of the tough questions you are struggling with in regards to some of the more difficult elements of Christian Theology and Philosophy.

Ice: Yeah, they willfully and without hesitation gave their lives for Christ. Well, men willfully and without hesitation gave their lives for certain people/ideologies, as well.

The problem with that analogy, Ice, is that, for example, the loonies who crashed their jets into the World Trade Center towers in NY, on 9-11 - while they indeed fanatically stayed true to their fanatic Islamist beliefs to death, they had NO idea whether their beliefs in Allah and supposed awaiting virgins were true or not. They merely believed a false ideaology because it had been taught them since childhood. So what is obviously wrong with your analogy? The disciples turned apostles absolutely KNEW whether Jesus had lied or not. The KNEW whether or not they had actually all seen and talked to the risen Christ or not!!! Yes, people indeed do die for false religious beliefs all the time - the entirety of human existence. But what rational people do NOT do is die for a lie - not for a lie they KNOW to be a LIE. And make no mistake about it - the Apostles KNEW the truth of the matter, and were all willing to die for it - and all but one DID. The last, John, very well could have, as he continued to preach a risen Christ. Again, read the writings of these men - their sober, methodical, hugely inspirational writings have influenced all of the Western world for 2,000 years. Do they sound like raving, fanatical LUNATICS? No, the exact opposite - their behaviors and words very convincingly appear to be those of men who knew the truth and were willing to die for what they KNEW!

The other thing one must ask, with this supposed Christian "cult's" leader brutally and publicly killed, with the fear of that fate lingering over every new convert, within a culture of ancient Judaism, of which everyone at least paid outward allegiance to, which was relentlessly re-enforced by the religious leaders and their followers (who thought they spoke for God) - why, WHY did Christianity, in such an atmosphere, suddenly and spectacularly explode with thousands of followers of Christ, almost IMMEDIATELY after the Crucifixion? That is, UNLESS many knew of those whom had seen Jesus (or themselves had), post His Crucifixion, and powered by the Holy Spirit? Why would the REST of so many, ingrained in ancient Judaism, with the very real risk of the same fate of this supposedly dead Rabbi, with fear and hounding of, not only the Romans, but the Jewish leaders - what else could account for this massive explosion of Believers in Jesus???!!!

Katabole wrote:.

Why is He not the righteous indignation in these times? Why is it that the only time He did it was more than 2k years ago? Does it not seem odd that He would do it a few times more than 2k years ago and then never again?

IceMobster wrote:Why is He not the righteous indignation in these times?

Because the Holy Spirit is. Jesus told his disciples He was leaving this dimension but He would send the Spirit. Read John chapter 14.

IceMobster wrote: Why is it that the only time He did it was more than 2k years ago?

Because that particular time was ordained. Read Daniel chapter 9.

IceMobster wrote:Does it not seem odd that He would do it a few times more than 2k years ago and then never again?

If you are ensuing as to why God has not done anything about all the injustices in the world, yes, I asked myself that question a number of years ago. He plans to do something about it. It is simply not time for him to do something about it. Yet. There are a couple of reasons why.

Many of the Old Testament prophets wished they could have been alive at the time Jesus walked the Earth to see the Messiah and listen to what He said. But they were not.

Matthew 13:17 For truly I say to you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which you hear, and have not heard them.

God still wants people to turn to Him and believe as well.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some men consider slowness; but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is very patient.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.


There seems to be this notion which has been around for centuries, that if God does not show up like some kind of genie at our moments beckon call, then God must not exist because he does not deliver us from evil right away. In theological schools, this notion is normally part of the response of those who are not familiar with what is known as the Omnipotence Paradox, which I'm sure Jac could explain in detail if you ask him.

The God of the Bible has a time schedule. There are a whole series of events that must occur before Christ's return. But when the time comes and those events have unfolded in their proper time, you can bet that God is going to do something about all the injustices. Read Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, the minor Prophets and the book of Ezekiel and Revelation.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

"Because the Holy Spirit is. Jesus told his disciples He was leaving this dimension but He would send the Spirit. Read John chapter 14."
Yeah, you avoided the question. According to Trinity, they are the same thing.

Katabole wrote:.

The cherrypick is real.
Oh well, in that case, you needn't talk to me. I am doomed anyway. The Lord forgives not the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And I am an apostate to the faith.
Matthew 12:31

IceMobster wrote:Yeah, you avoided the question. According to Trinity, they are the same thing.

By saying they are the same thing, you do not understand the Trinity.

IceMobster wrote:The cherrypick is real.

No cherry pick on my part. You asked questions. I gave you the best answer I could.

IceMobster wrote:Oh well, in that case, you needn't talk to me. I am doomed anyway. The Lord forgives not the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And I am an apostate to the faith.

Very well then, I'll let others on the forum enlighten you. You simply do not understand what the unforgivable sin is Ice. Christ forgives sin. Ask Him and believe that He will.

Katabole wrote: By saying they are the same thing, you do not understand the Trinity.

Hmm, the Holy Spirit is not God? 3 persons in 1 nature. Am I wrong? They do have the same nature.

Katabole wrote: Very well then, I'll let others on the forum enlighten you. You simply do not understand what the unforgivable sin is Ice. Christ forgives sin. Ask Him and believe that He will.

Ok, what IS unforgivable sin?

Knowing, and rejecting Christ.

Storyteller wrote:Knowing, and rejecting Christ.

What is knowing? How do you know Christ? I know his biography, I know his historical authenticity, I have read the gospels, I am aware of his teachings and the interpretation of both him and his teachings throughout the councils across the first 9 centuries (of course I do not know everything about them, but I do have a good picture), I know about the heresies which induced the councils, I am aware of the doctrinal and most other differences among Christian denominations, what else?
Another thing that makes no sense is that you would reject Christ despite "knowing" him. I suppose "know" is not the same know which I mentioned above...
Unless you are a hardcore satanist which sees Christ as something evil (for dooming your god), why would you possibly or rather HOW COULD you possibly reject Christ once you KNOW him? Yet again, KNOW. What do you mean by know?

Talk about ask a simple question!

I will try and explain, though I'm not always good at expressing myself.

Knowing Christ is an ongoing thing, I think, anyway. It's a life journey, learning to follow Christ. If you head towards Christ with an open heart and mind, that is knowing Him, trusting Him.
Do you, or anyone, accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour? If not, then that's rejecting Him and I think that is the unforgivable sin.
People do know Christ yet still reject Him.

Doubt is fine, healthy I think. Gives us something to measure against. But to know of, to learn of Christ and who He is and not accept Him as your Saviour, thats rejecting Him.

Rejecting Christ is a pretty firm decision whereas accepting Him can be a gradual realisation or an instant transformation.

(Not sure if that helps, or even if I've explained very well.)