Evidence for God from Science

Alex we will help a person but they need to be honestly seeking answers and it seems you think you have all of these reasons that the bible is wrong and already have your mind made up. I could tell from your first post that you have been influenced by atheists. You should not get your bible teaching from atheists who don't understand it properly.We are here to help if we can but be cool.This is not a place to bash God or to argue against God with a hard headed attitude.This does not mean you must agree with everything but you should remain respectful here. You can do it and we will help if we can.

We are learning new things all the time on here in our discussions and we don't always agree but we are respectful to each other when we do disagree.

I started from the premise that the bible is nor true or false,that the attributes of god are nor true or false, that the statement :"morality of God is more superior then mine and i can't understand it" is nor true or false . Analyze the facts and concepts in the bible with science, logic and my morality and see if it leads me to the the conclusion that the bible is true.
You start from the premise that the bible is true and make assumptions and use your imagination to fill in the gaps so that it fits your truth.

The conclusion is that the bible is a collection of fantastic, supranatural tales, that has no common ground with our science,our universe laws of phiysics and our reality. A universe so different from ours it seems out of these world.A place where God talks directly to people and helps then conquer cities,kill their enemies,give them food out of thin air ; a place where you see fantastic things and clear proofs of God:talking burning bush,rivers that turn into blood,sticks that turn into snakes,people that turn into salt,seas that depart, teleportation, angels that walk visible among people and talk to them,people that are fireproof, people strong like the mythical figure hercules, giants 9feet tall and so on ; compared with our world where we don't see these incredible things happen.
Why has God decided not do these anymore and hide from us ? Wouldn't many more people believe in God if they saw these things happen ?

My every reply was to what everyone here said.
I have the same respect to christianity that i have to other religions : islam, budhism, hindi.
I have talk to several people on the subject of religion, majority of people get offended when i ask pertinent question about their religion. It's just one of these two cases :
1.Because of cognitive dissonance
Cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.
2.Because of vanity and pride, because no one wants to be told their are wrong.

If you were good, onest and intelligent people, really saved by Jesus you would have tried to answer and refute my arguments without calling me dishonest, close minded ; assume things about me that may be or not true .

alexXcJRO wrote:I have the same respect to christianity that i have to other religions : islam, budhism, hindi.
I have talk to several people on the subject of religion, majority of people get offended when i ask pertinent question about their religion. It's just one of these two cases :
1.Because of cognitive dissonance
Cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.
2.Because of vanity and pride, because no one wants to be told their are wrong.

If you were good, onest and intelligent people, really saved by Jesus you would have tried to answer and refute my arguments without calling me dishonest, close minded ; assume things about me that may be or not true .

If you were honest then you wouldn't have put "Yes" to Christian in your profile. Rather, had you been straight-up asking your questions.... but as it is, I don't have the time for pretenders. You know how to use Google right? The fact you didn't even examine the main site in relation to your questions shows you're here for one thing only, in addition to being dishonest in representing yourself. You can leave the way you came for all I care, and I don't say that often to people.

I wasn't trying to fool anyone or be dishonest about my status . I just didn't edit my profile ,must have been the default setting.I have corrected that.
I searched a bit on the forum but i couldn't find what i needed and because i am a busy man and don't have time to spend hours on the forum ...i thought it is more simply to ask ?
Your are reading to much into it and making exaggerated claims that you can't know for sure if they or not true.
I have posted the same things on another forum ... there people have been more polite.

alexXcJRO wrote:
So both of you are saying that if psychopaths like Hitler,Mendel had repent and asked for forgiveness they would have gone to heaven.and the jews because they didn't believed in Jesus went to hell.
In my opinion an all loving God in his infinite wisdom,mercy and with a perfect justice would not do such a thing.

Do you see yourself as better than Hitler?

Personally, I don't see myself any better than someone like him. As far as I'm concerned we are all in the same sinking boat of sin. We are all capable of committing the most horrendous crimes.

And if what I believe is true, then we all need forgiveness. It is through Christ we are saved. When we are forgiven the focus is on Christ and what he has done. Not on us and how bad we have sinned.

alexXcJRO wrote:
Concept of free will and the story of Noah.
Man can choose not to serve the God of the bible , so this implies he does have free will.
“15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)”

Because man has free will that means he can do as he wishes during his life: he can choose to be a force of good or a force of evil in this world, to love God, hate him or just ignore him, to avoid sin or embracing it.

”12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. “(Genesis 6:12-13)

God then comes and kills all humans except for Noah and his family for their being too corrupt, violent, and evil. This goes in contradictions of the concept of free will, because if men really had free then God shouldn’t have destroyed them for their choices before death.

So how come that he did?

Free will doesn't mean there are no consequences to what we do. We're free to obey God (and the first thing we have to obey is to trust him and believe in Jesus), or not, but God tells us what the consequences will be. Free will doesn't mean we can do anything we want and it will all turn out great.

At least one infant or young child was killed in the flood.
Infants and young children are incapable of fully understanding either their spiritual condition or God's requirements for salvation. Can God judge them even though they don't understand the basis of that judgment?

The Bible does indicate that children are innocent, for example, when
describing how some of the Israelites in the Valley of Benhinnom had become corrupt so as
to sacrifice their own (innocent) children:
"Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;" (Jeremiah 19:4-5)
There you have an analogy between corrupt men and infants who are innocent.

"Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it. (Deuteronomy 1:39)"

The Bible clearly indicates that children are regarded as being innocent because of their lack
of ability to discern between good and evil, they are no capable of making moral choices.
So they are morally correct in the eyes of God.
Let’s see what righteous means = morally right or justifiable, good, virtuous, upstanding, worthy.
As we can see children are not corrupted but innocent, righteous and blameless in eyes of God.

"9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and
Japheth.11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways." (Genesis 6:9)
There you have an analogy between corrupt men and Noah who is righteous and blameless.

So again i ask how come God didn't saved all the babies or young children but he did Noah ?

What do you think might have happened to the children after death, and for eternity? If they were really innocent and hadn't rejected God based on what they knew of him, which would apply to all the younger children at least, I don't think God would have rejected them either; the same wouldn't apply to the adults who had chosen to rebel against God. It's not good to lose our earthly lives at a young age but eternity will be a lot longer.

I'm not sure exactly what to say about Gandhi. I'll think about it.

I had believe 10 years that the Bible is true . Now i am not so sure . Here are some of the problems that i found:


The story of Creation - in the Bible it says God created the universe and life in just 6 days in this order first
the Earth, then the Sun,Moon,the stars and finally life but science tells us a different thing
first was the Big Bang, then the stars ,then the earth and moon,then life, all of this took billions
of years.The question is how can both science and bible be correct?

There are different interpretations of Genesis - William Lane Craig does a great series on them - worth listening to.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-2-podcast/s9

The story of Adam and Eve -Adam and Eve were like small children : innocent , naive and with no knowledge of right and
wrong.God punished them for breaking his only rule by banishing them from a life of bliss,abundance,
immortality and no pain in Eden to a life of struggle, pain and mortality. They were bound to make
mistakes and not listen to their father because they haven’t experienced yet the consequences of
doing that. Also we must not forget that God didn’t explain what death is. If they had known that
for their transgression the punishment would be so severe they probably wouldn't have eaten the
forbidden fruit. So the question is how an all loving, just God in his infinite wisdom and mercy
could punish his beloved children so drastically at their first mistake?Isn't God's justice perfect?

Adam and Eve were in the presence of Almighty God. We have no idea what that is like. If we are exposed unfiltered to his complete radiance and then we choose to reject him, even once, then the consequences must be severe due to the nature of the person we are sinning against. For instance - take this analogy. If you slap someone on the street then at best you could get hit back and at worst you would be charged for assault. However if you slap the President of the United States - then you will probably end up being shot or given a lengthy Jail sentence or charged with treason. The consequences of a sin is different depending on who you are sinning against.

All that aside - God had a plan to bring us back to him anyway through Jesus Christ - which is was in no obligation to do and that is the ultimate beauty of the story.

The story of Noah- Men have became more corrupt and violent except Noah and his family who were righteous. God gets angry
and decides to destroy the world through a flood.Tells Noah to build an ark and bring 2 of every land
animal in the ark in 7 days .We know that the circumference of the Earth is about 40,000 km and for
example the distance from the Middle East and Australia is ~ 11,000 km .So the question is how he
managed to covered hundreds of thousands of km and gather all the animals from every corner of the
earth in just few days?

Some interpretations of the flood are that it was local, although universal in effect due to the current limited migrations of both animals and humans at the time. But if it was global - then either way God brought the animals to Noah not the other way round.

- God spared Noah and his family for being righteous,yet he killed at least one small child in the flood.
Jesus said small children in the eyes of God are innocent,righteous and not corrupted .So wouldn't an
all loving God in his infinite wisdom and mercy would have spared also all the children may they have
been in the thousands,hundreds or just one? Isn't God's justice perfect?

If the child was truly innocent (and only God can judge) then he or she is now spending an eternity of joy with the Lord Jesus. Death to God is only a relocation of someone from one dimension to another. So from that perspective the child is doing fine.

- God created the rainbow after the flood implying that there never was a rainbow before the flood. This
contradicts the scientific definition of what rainbows are because if you have light,refraction of
light and rain you have rainbows.This leads to the only conclusion that there are only three possible
scenarios that create an environment where rainbow would not form:
1.There is no sunlight. But terrestrial life is dependent on sunlight, in this scenario all life
would have died.
2.There was no rain but the Bible tells us of rain before the supposed creation of the rainbow.
3.Light did not refract but if light did not refract, sight would be impossible. It is light
refracting in the lens of the eye that allows sight by focusing the light onto the retina.
The question is how can both science and bible be correct?

God put a rainbow in the sky as a sign of his promise - this does no way imply that there were not rainbows before - he just gave the rainbow a new meaning.

The concept of Hell- Hell is a place where men go if they disobey Gods rules and not repent before their death, a place
of eternal torment and torture.How could an all loving God in his infinite wisdom,mercy could
torture billions of people forever for a finite numbers of sins committed in their finite life.
Wouldn't God's perfect justice demand a punishment proportional to the number and gravity of sins?
- Throughout the human history of hundreds of thousands of years man had believed in thousands of
different Gods,from gods of wind, trees and animals, to polytheistic gods of the vikings: Odin,
Loki,Thor or of the romans and greeks: Jupiter,Mars,Venus/Zeus,Ares,Aphrodite or of the egyptians:
Ra,Osiris,Horus or of the hindi:Shiva,Vishnu,Brahma to monotheistic gods like Allah,Ahura Mazda,
Buddha,Zalmoxis. Some of these gods are still worshiped today and they will be in the future.This
leads to a rather unsettling conclusion that all the people that never heard of the bible but
failed to figure it out that the right god is Yahweh or just failed to figure it out that there
is a god at all or be born in a different religion and consequently believed,worshiped and prayed
to their god or gods, are doomed to an eternity of torture in hell.This apply also to both to those
who heard of Yahweh but chose to remain faithful to their religion or belief and also to atheists
and agnostic who can’t believe because of insufficient evidence. Wouldn't an all powerful, all
loving God in his infinite wisdom would have thought of a better kind of revelation of himself then
that of the bible , like for example reveal himself and his wishes clearly, personally to every
human like he did with Noah or Moses or Paul, and by doing which give everyone a equal chance at
salvation and redemption? Why choose to remain hidden,idle while seeing all the billions of people
going on with their lives believing in,worshiping,praying and sacrificing them and others to false
god or gods and in the same time punish them for not obeying his rules when they haven’t even heard
them?

There is another view of Hell than can be interpreted from the Bible called Annihilationism - That denies eternal conscious torture. Also Paul teaches us that if there is no direct revelation of God (or Jesus) then God will judge us by the revelation we have had. We are still saved by the blood of Jesus mind. God will know how a person would react if they are truly told the Gospel and so we will be judged on that. Although Paul also states that the evidence is so obvious that only a fool would admit that there is no God.

Hope that answers some of your questions.

Welcome to the forum.

Silvertusk.

-->Nessa :"Do you see yourself as better than Hitler?"
Hitler used Jesus to sell his propaganda of anti-jews, his lies and killed millions of them.
So When it comes to the moral rules :
-You shall not murder.
-You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
I think i am pretty certain i am more superior and so is Gandhi.

The fact that someone like Hitler if he asked could be granted full absolution of all his great sins suggests that indeed God's mercy is infinite .
But it my opinion this goes in contradiction with God's perfect justice, because someone so guilty should received some kind of punishment.
It's liked heaven can be packed in theory with millions of psychopats and murderers who were remorseful and believers before death, while the hell can be packed with people like Gandhi who were not remorseful and believers before death.
So the idea of eternal punishment and torture for finite sins seems infinitely severe and out of proportions and in contradiction with all loving , merciful and just God.


-->Nicki :"Free will doesn't mean there are no consequences to what we do. We're free to obey God (and the first thing we have to obey is to trust him and believe in Jesus), or not, but God tells us what the consequences will be. Free will doesn't mean we can do anything we want and it will all turn out great."

The consequences of sin and not repenting and believing comes after death not before .
Adam and Eve were given free will and they chose to sin so God did not destroyed them and their body just their immortality.
The people of the Earth at Noah time chose to sin like Adam and Eve so because if they really had free will it doesn't matter if they sin a little or more God should have not killed them .They would have received their punishment after death.So how come that he did?
Using this logic i ask why God did not kill Hitler, Stalin, Mendele they were super corrupted and violent?


-->Nicki :"What do you think might have happened to the children after death, and for eternity? If they were really innocent and hadn't rejected God based on what they knew of him, which would apply to all the younger children at least, I don't think God would have rejected them either; the same wouldn't apply to the adults who had chosen to rebel against God. It's not good to lose our earthly lives at a young age but eternity will be a lot longer."

-->Silvertusk :" If the child was truly innocent (and only God can judge) then he or she is now spending an eternity of joy with the Lord Jesus. Death to God is only a relocation of someone from one dimension to another. So from that perspective the child is doing fine."

Small children yes go to Heavan if they die but so does Noah and his family at the moment of the flood because all of them were righteous in the eyes of God.
In the bible it says that God looked upon the Earth and saw that people are more corrupt ,more violent and evil except only Noah and his family .So this only logically means that small children are corrupted and thats why they were killed.
You can see clearly the logic ,no ?


-->-->Silvertusk :"There is another view of Hell than can be interpreted from the Bible called Annihilationism - That denies eternal conscious torture. Also Paul teaches us that if there is no direct revelation of God (or Jesus) then God will judge us by the revelation we have had. We are still saved by the blood of Jesus mind. God will know how a person would react if they are truly told the Gospel and so we will be judged on that. Although Paul also states that the evidence is so obvious that only a fool would admit that there is no God. "

So Gandhi is a fool.

I don't think Annihilationism can be correct in my opinion .Let's look at the bible :

“9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, ” (Revelation 4:9)

“7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.” (Revelation 15:7)

We all agree that God is eternal , does not die, lives forever and exists beyond the infinity. Statement in
the bible :” God, who lives for ever and ever.” This demonstrates that the phrase “for ever and ever” means without end, eternal, infinite.


So because we see the use of the phrase "for ever and ever " in description of the Hell/lake of fire means that indeed is a place of eternal torture and punishment:

Lets look at the bible:

A place of torment also for the devil and his fallen angels :
"10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."(Revelation 20:10)

A place of torment for wicked men:
"10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” "(Revelation 14:10-11)
“41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41)

Punishment that goes on forever:
"46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” "(Matthew 25:46)

A place of darkness reserved, not annihilation:
"13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever."(Jude 13)

Hell is banishment away from God's presence:
“9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

A place of great torment:
“50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. “(Matthew 13:50)

Unquenchable fire and worms that do not die:
“48 where “‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ “(Mark 9:48)

Fire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ku7s7pRkCw

You guys are being played and we all have seen this pattern over and over.
I suggest to not feed the troll.

You can always tell when the person states that HE is open minded and everyone that believes suffers from "cognitive dissonance" or they don't have an open mind.
Ignoring the fact that many believers WERE atheists and come to faith via reasoning and rational.
So much easier to be on that high pulpit when we believe we are smarter than believers...

Well -- there Is a lot of truth being shared with Whomever is reading this thread. So 'whomever' is Now accountable for what he / she is reading and what is being shared with them.
Another thought -- about the children being 'taken' in the flood. As children they were innocent. Growing up with wicked adults, that was bound to change. So God chose to take them to be With Him Before they were able to become evil adults.
And hell is Not Meant for people. It IS meant for satan, false prophet and the beast as was shared previously. Rev. 20:10 -- so --let's Not blame God for sending any people to hell. It IS our personal refusal to accept His way to stay Out of hell. Because the price to pay for our sins is eternal hell. We don't get to sin and miss out on the negative consequences -- as has already been shared.

PaulSacramento wrote:You guys are being played and we all have seen this pattern over and over.
I suggest to not feed the troll.

You can always tell when the person states that HE is open minded and everyone that believes suffers from "cognitive dissonance" or they don't have an open mind.
Ignoring the fact that many believers WERE atheists and come to faith via reasoning and rational.
So much easier to be on that high pulpit when we believe we are smarter than believers...

Even trolls need truth and love

alexXcJRO wrote:-->Nessa :"Do you see yourself as better than Hitler?"
Hitler used Jesus to sell his propaganda of anti-jews, his lies and killed millions of them.
So When it comes to the moral rules :
-You shall not murder.
-You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
I think i am pretty certain i am more superior and so is Gandhi.

The fact that someone like Hitler if he asked could be granted full absolution of all his great sins suggests that indeed God's mercy is infinite .
But it my opinion this goes in contradiction with God's perfect justice, because someone so guilty should received some kind of punishment.
It's liked heaven can be packed in theory with millions of psychopats and murderers who were remorseful and believers before death, while the hell can be packed with people like Gandhi who were not remorseful and believers before death.
So the idea of eternal punishment and torture for finite sins seems infinitely severe and out of proportions and in contradiction with all loving , merciful and just God.

When you stand before God, pulling out the 'I was superior to Hitler' card is not going to help you. Just because we see ourselves as 'superior' therefore more justified, does not mean God also does.

When we see ourselves as 'superior' then we really dont actually see sin for what it is. Or for what it means. Our eyes are not truly opened to the horrors of our own fallen condition. We are seeing sin from our own view point and not God's. And so we are also judging sin according to our own way of seeing it. From our perception. Instead of from God's perpective who is Himself incapable of sin.

The bible says if you break one commandmant you have broken them all - James 2:10 - and if you have hated your brother you have already murdered him in your heart. If you have lusted after someone you have also already committed adultery in your heart.

We are all in the same sinking boat of sin

Luke 18: 9 - 14

Want It Dead Or Alive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVztXwJI4lI

Nessa wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:You guys are being played and we all have seen this pattern over and over.
I suggest to not feed the troll.

You can always tell when the person states that HE is open minded and everyone that believes suffers from "cognitive dissonance" or they don't have an open mind.
Ignoring the fact that many believers WERE atheists and come to faith via reasoning and rational.
So much easier to be on that high pulpit when we believe we are smarter than believers...

Even trolls need truth and love

Preach it sister!

Signed,