Am I a Christian?

[Byblos]

I think this question of OSAS is surrounded by theoretical thinking. And so I believe that the setup of this "straw" man - the one who well knows of Christ, the Gospel, of God's grace, of Jesus assertion of the necessity of faith in HIm, that such a person could first have be saved, only to later consciously reject Him, and yet STILL be saved. I would highly doubt that anyone truly ever saved would later totally and deliberately reject Jesus. So, the REAL issue is far more likely one of such a person never having been saved to begin with.

And yet examples of exactly that (scenario) are abound. Countless folk have professed the faith, lived by it, preached it even. Only to later completely reject it. I totally agree with you that that may indeed be evidence of having never been saved, that's not the issue nor is it one of demonstrating one's faith through works. The issue is absolute assurance and in this case it would be negated.

I only quoted the above because there's nothing I disagree with in the rest of your post.

[SoCalExile]

2 Timothy 2:13, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 1 Corinthians 3:15.

[SoCalExile]

It amazes me how people can accept the logic of judging another's salvation based on standards those people claim we don't have meet to be saved in the first place.

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:
Now you're preaching (to the choir). That's all well and good and understood, no argument there. I go about my daily spiritual life not giving it an iota of a second thought, secure in the knowledge that God is faithful even when I'm not. How could I not believe that? I am Catholic, a central tenet of Catholicism is the sacrament of reconciliation precisely instituted and administered by Christ (through the priesthood) to reconcile me back to Christ when I stray (and no, this has nothing to do with assurance and I don't want to digress). That's how I lead my life and how I intend to lead it until the day I die, by God's grace.

That has everything to do with assurance. At least the kind of assurance I'm talking about. When I say a believer has absolute assurance of salvation, assurance is defined as God's promise(s), found in scripture. I'm NOT talking about the kind of assurance defined as a feeling of being sure. As I've said before, a believer has assurance(promises) of salvation, even if that believer doesn't have assurance(a feeling) that he is saved.

Byblos wrote:
No, that's not it at all Rick. It's not a matter of security or assurance or putting my trust in God vs. my own actions, it's none of that. It is as basic a proposition as can be, it's a matter of choice, of free will. Knowing all there is to know about God and His grace, is a person able to make a conscious decision to totally reject Christ? If the answer is no (which is what OSAS suggests) then free will is an illusion. If the answer is yes, then OSAS is an illusion. To be quite honest I would personally prefer the former but I think there is no escaping the logical conclusion of the latter.

I would say, at least theoretically, being consistent with OSAS, someone can make a conscious decision to reject Christ. However rare that may be, I have no idea. But we certainly don't lose our free will to continue to trust Christ, or reject him. But again, once one has eternal life, then there's nothing one can do to change that. No amount of sin, including unbelief, or rejection of Christ, is greater than God's promises to keep those whom he has sealed with The Holy Spirit.

You either believe God's promises take precedence over our choices to sin, or you believe there's some sin(unbelief, rejection of Christ, mass murder, etc.) that takes precedence over God's promises to keep us secure in Him. And since I know I fail, I have no choice but to place my trust in the only one who will never fail. The only one who will not, cannot go back on His promises.

It's really as simple as complete trust in God, to do what He said He is going to do.

[Byblos]

(again, no issue with everything else)

But we certainly don't lose our free will to continue to trust Christ, or reject him.

How could that be? How do you resolve the obvious contradiction of a decision made against one's free will that does not negate such (free will)?

[RickD]

(again, no issue with everything else)

But we certainly don't lose our free will to continue to trust Christ, or reject him.

How could that be? How do you resolve the obvious contradiction of a decision made against one's free will that does not negate such (free will)?

I'm not sure I'm following you. I said that theoretically someone who is saved, can reject Christ. But in that theoretical, it wouldn't change that person's eternal destiny. It may have other consequences, but not losing salvation.

I have a son. The moment he was born, he became my son. Nothing can change that. He can curse me, reject me as his father, etc. But there's nothing he can do that will change the fact that he's my son. Once we trust Christ, we become "adopted" sons of God. Nothing we can do can change that.

[Byblos]

(again, no issue with everything else)

But we certainly don't lose our free will to continue to trust Christ, or reject him.

How could that be? How do you resolve the obvious contradiction of a decision made against one's free will that does not negate such (free will)?

I'm not sure I'm following you. I said that theoretically someone who is saved, can reject Christ. But in that theoretical, it wouldn't change that person's eternal destiny. It may have other consequences, but not losing salvation.

What's there to follow? I make a freely conscious decision to be separated from God and yet my decision is negated. Where's the free will in that?

I have a son. The moment he was born, he became my son. Nothing can change that. He can curse me, reject me as his father, etc. But there's nothing he can do that will change the fact that he's my son. Once we trust Christ, we become "adopted" sons of God. Nothing we can do can change that.

Your son will always be your son, that's a fact. But your son is free to elect to leave home, never come back, and cut you off entirely. If he's not free to do so then you're negating his free will by forcing him to stay with you.

[Philip]

Byblos: The issue is absolute assurance and in this case it would be negated.

To one whom has TRULY placed their faith in Christ, the assurance IS absolute! But what is not absolute or certain is whether or not they have actually done this. If they have, then there was an actual moment of salvation - meaning their eternity walking with the Lord has already begun. Does God save a person, His Spirit enter them, and yet all the while He can see where they will end up (Hell!), or did He not see that they actually never had (a sincere faith in Jesus) to begin with - which He validated with salvation - OR knowing they would abandon their faith? One can't abandon SALVATION or faith. You either have it or you don't. And it's not YOUR salvation, but God's! But it is YOUR faith!

If, as Rick noted, IF it's up to us, we are ALL truly screwed!!!

[Byblos]

Byblos: The issue is absolute assurance and in this case it would be negated.

To one whom has TRULY placed their faith in Christ, the assurance IS absolute! But what is not absolute or certain is whether or not they have actually done this. If they have, then there was an actual moment of salvation - meaning their eternity walking with the Lord has already begun. Does God save a person, His Spirit enter them, and yet all the while He can see where they will end up (Hell!), or did He not see that they actually never had (a sincere faith in Jesus) to begin with - which He validated with salvation - OR knowing they would abandon their faith? One can't abandon SALVATION or faith. You either have it or you don't. And it's not YOUR salvation, but God's! But it is YOUR faith!

If, as Rick noted, IF it's up to us, we are ALL truly screwed!!!

On the emphasized part, how can one be absolutely certain one has done this? More to the point, however, if they had lived their entire life assuming they were absolutely certain they had done this but discover, before their last dying breath, that they hadn't, what does that do to that assurance they supposedly had all along?

[SoCalExile]

Byblos. We know born again Christians cannot lose salvation because 2 Timothy 2:13 says so, and the reason given there is found in Galatians 2:20. Also, Ephesians 1:13-14, 4:30 also state that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a promise, which is the token of our betrothal as the bride of Christ. For God to break this contract would be a divorce, and God hates divorce.

More: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jewish-wedd ... tions.html

[Byblos]

Byblos. We know born again Christians cannot lose salvation because 2 Timothy 2:13 says so, and the reason given there is found in Galatians 2:20. Also, Ephesians 1:13-14, 4:30 also state that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a promise, which is the token of our betrothal as the bride of Christ. For God to break this contract would be a divorce, and God hates divorce.

More: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jewish-wedd ... tions.html

I am well versed in both scripture and the position (assurance). I may have answered a few posts re: assurance but that's not really my main point. In fact it is one of free will or lack of (see my exchange with Rick).

[SoCalExile]

It's not a matter of free will, its a matter of having a new nature that is sinless, and when the old sinful nature dies, the new nature lives with Christ.

A short teaching on this:

[Byblos]

It's not a matter of free will, its a matter of having a new nature that is sinless, and when the old sinful nature dies, the new nature lives with Christ.

A short teaching on this:

This makes no sense whatsoever. Now we have 2 natures? By what, a sort of hypostatic union? One person with two natures, the only place remotely indicating of such in scripture is pertaining to Christ, not us.

And it most certainly does have to do with free will because I made it about free will. I asked the question (many many times) and I have yet to hear a coherent answer. Two natures is certainly not one of them as it brings up all kinds of difficulties both theological and philosophical.

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:

What's there to follow? I make a freely conscious decision to be separated from God and yet my decision is negated. Where's the free will in that?

Just let me answer your question with a question. Could one make a free will decision to accept Christ, without the Holy Spirit's leading?

Byblos wrote:

Your son will always be your son, that's a fact. But your son is free to elect to leave home, never come back, and cut you off entirely. If he's not free to do so then you're negating his free will by forcing him to stay with you.

I don't disagree with any of that.

But he's still going to be my son. Always. Once born as my son, he can't be unborn.

To one whom has TRULY placed their faith in Christ, the assurance IS absolute! But what is not absolute or certain is whether or not they have actually done this.

Byblos wrote:

On the emphasized part, how can one be absolutely certain one has done this? More to the point, however, if they had lived their entire life assuming they were absolutely certain they had done this but discover, before their last dying breath, that they hadn't, what does that do to that assurance they supposedly had all along?

1 John 5:13
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

[SoCalExile]

This makes no sense whatsoever. Now we have 2 natures? By what, a sort of hypostatic union? One person with two natures, the only place remotely indicating of such in scripture is pertaining to Christ, not us.

And it most certainly does have to do with free will because I made it about free will. I asked the question (many many times) and I have yet to hear a coherent answer. Two natures is certainly not one of them as it brings up all kinds of difficulties both theological and philosophical.

Let me say what I see you doing: judging scripture to be wrong by the philosophy of men.

The two natures are a core teaching of the NT. We come into this world born of water and the flesh in Adam. When we believe in Christ, we are then baptized by the Holy Spirit and given a new birth of the Spirit. The old flesh will still die, but the new birth does not. The old birth cannot do good, the new birth cannot do evil.

Unless you are born again of the spirit, you can't see heaven.

There is a huge amount of the New Testament that hinges on this concept, but most people don't know it or take it for granted. Yet it's the key to understanding the Epistles without confusion. That's why people get confused on the role of works and grace, and try to join two mutually exclusive concepts and try to give people a glass of mud that they call "the gospel" that actually isn't.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, *“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

What’s He talking about? Paul further explained it in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

1 Peter 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who does righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who does sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God commits sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not do righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1John 5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.