Evidence for God from Science

Basically his premise states that mankind cannot be trusted. Isn't that an aspect of sin?

If humanity cannot be trusted, then why would God want un-trustworthy people to live next door with?

The fact is that God, being perfect in all ways - in ALL knowledge of motivations, future actions, decisions and also being ALL powerful - does not NEED only PERFECT things to accomplish His sovereign will! God, being perfect and unlimited in ability, not only knows that whenever HE is applied to whatever situation or circumstances, that HE has the power to control outcomes to that He desires - in fact, He actually sees into the future to see that His will is perfectly accomplished BEFORE (even THOUSANDS OF YEARS before, as well as eternally so) it is completed. Of NO future thing is God not perfectly knowledgeable of! History is HIS story! And He does not need to take away the free will choices of man to do so. For God, even those intent upon evil are a useful tool for Him. So, correct, men ALONE could never have accurately conveyed or known many of the things found in Scripture. And yet, empowered by the Holy Spirit, Scripture turned out precisely as God so desired - as He is the ultimate Originator and Auther. And that is the mistake that so many make - "How could mortal men do this or that?" Well, so many things that statement might reference would be a reasonable dismissal of what would be probable or possible. But that is also considering that God was not involved. Because whenever He is, EXPECT wondrous, sometimes miraculous, things!

Kurieuo wrote:The majority of Christian denominations share in the same general message...

yes, and this is termed Apostasy, wadr.

IceMobster wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:If there is significance found in disagreement, then why not significance in agreement?
People focus a lot on disagreement that they often forget much is agreed upon.
The majority of Christian denominations share in the same general message, those who don't are simply cults.

Your question I think is more one of epistomology than specifically Christianity. That is, how can truth be known? Why isn't truth clear? The only theological part really is, why didn't God make it known and clear?

To the first and second questions, theology is just as much a field of knowledge, as the physical sciences, as philosophy -- and so it suffers all the same problems of our ability to truly know. Scripture is considered a source of theology, as is nature, as is reason and tradition. How one procedes to understand the relationship of each and understand the truth of this or that matter often becomes a complicated exercise.

As to the third question, if what you want to know is why God didn't make all truth clear. Patrick is right, that there is a purpose God desires in our temporary world. Part of Christianity is the belief that God calls to us, yet depending on our hearts we either bury the truth of God or respond to it. God allows knowledge of Himself to be buried, even gives people whose hearts are set over to themselves to do as they please in this life. Nonetheless, God can be clearly seen through what has been made, right? Yet not everyone believes God even exists. The Gospel can be clearly seen in Scripture too I'd argue, yet not everyone believes in such hope.

Well, I don't want to bury the truth, but I can't accept Christ as God. So, what now? Eternal hell?
Meh...

you might see that Scripture--which is not the Word, btw--is meant to divide joints from marrow; hence the physical divisions into sects, which reveal Apostasy. When Scripture clearly delineates "faith" from "beliefs" in other areas; satan believes, too, and trembles. Christ came to be an example, that even the Sunni's Book proclaims one "must follow, or be doomed." (the Heifer, i think? several other places, also)

So imo, you are right to believe in One God--as did not even Christ state "Why do you call Me good?"--and reject any doctrine of Apostate "Trinity" that cannot be Witnessed by a holistic view of Scripture in your opinion, only ("Seek your own salvation"), led by the Spirit, as Scripture suggests. Sorry, commands.

you might see that we, as humans, "bury the truth" (or our "first love," is the phrasing used in Scripture) when we become adults; and decisions about "weighty" matters are referred to little children for a chuckle, if at all, yes? So, if you would seek truth, ask little children for their answers, and be prepared to follow their advice, regardless of the cost.

bbyrd009 wrote:

IceMobster wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:If there is significance found in disagreement, then why not significance in agreement?
People focus a lot on disagreement that they often forget much is agreed upon.
The majority of Christian denominations share in the same general message, those who don't are simply cults.

Your question I think is more one of epistomology than specifically Christianity. That is, how can truth be known? Why isn't truth clear? The only theological part really is, why didn't God make it known and clear?

To the first and second questions, theology is just as much a field of knowledge, as the physical sciences, as philosophy -- and so it suffers all the same problems of our ability to truly know. Scripture is considered a source of theology, as is nature, as is reason and tradition. How one procedes to understand the relationship of each and understand the truth of this or that matter often becomes a complicated exercise.

As to the third question, if what you want to know is why God didn't make all truth clear. Patrick is right, that there is a purpose God desires in our temporary world. Part of Christianity is the belief that God calls to us, yet depending on our hearts we either bury the truth of God or respond to it. God allows knowledge of Himself to be buried, even gives people whose hearts are set over to themselves to do as they please in this life. Nonetheless, God can be clearly seen through what has been made, right? Yet not everyone believes God even exists. The Gospel can be clearly seen in Scripture too I'd argue, yet not everyone believes in such hope.

Well, I don't want to bury the truth, but I can't accept Christ as God. So, what now? Eternal hell?
Meh...

you might see that Scripture--which is not the Word, btw--is meant to divide joints from marrow; hence the physical divisions into sects, which reveal Apostasy. When Scripture clearly delineates "faith" from "beliefs" in other areas; satan believes, too, and trembles. Christ came to be an example, that even the Sunni's Book proclaims one "must follow, or be doomed." (the Heifer, i think? several other places, also)

So imo, you are right to believe in One God--as did not even Christ state "Why do you call Me good?"--and reject any doctrine of Apostate "Trinity" that cannot be Witnessed by a holistic view of Scripture in your opinion, only ("Seek your own salvation"), led by the Spirit, as Scripture suggests. Sorry, commands.

Divisions really don't matter like some people think,divisions does nothing to change the truth of God's word. A person will either choose to do things God's way or not. It is everybody's responsibility to make sure they are following the truth. Denominations do not change the truth of God's word,it is just people choosing to focus more on certain parts of God's word for the most part,but at the end of it only those who have been saved by Jesus will be justified. It is very hard today to not be able to discover truth in God's word. We have bibles,concordances,bible study guides,etc translated into most languages of the world and yet people think they are somehow excused from discovering the truth. It is a weak excuse that will hold no water at all when they are standing before God on judgment day. The truth and how a person followed it will matter and if your name is in the Lamb's book of life.

All false religions teach works for salvation because they have no Savior,but we do and his name is Jesus Christ.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

bbyrd009 wrote:

IceMobster wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:If there is significance found in disagreement, then why not significance in agreement?
People focus a lot on disagreement that they often forget much is agreed upon.
The majority of Christian denominations share in the same general message, those who don't are simply cults.

Your question I think is more one of epistomology than specifically Christianity. That is, how can truth be known? Why isn't truth clear? The only theological part really is, why didn't God make it known and clear?

To the first and second questions, theology is just as much a field of knowledge, as the physical sciences, as philosophy -- and so it suffers all the same problems of our ability to truly know. Scripture is considered a source of theology, as is nature, as is reason and tradition. How one procedes to understand the relationship of each and understand the truth of this or that matter often becomes a complicated exercise.

As to the third question, if what you want to know is why God didn't make all truth clear. Patrick is right, that there is a purpose God desires in our temporary world. Part of Christianity is the belief that God calls to us, yet depending on our hearts we either bury the truth of God or respond to it. God allows knowledge of Himself to be buried, even gives people whose hearts are set over to themselves to do as they please in this life. Nonetheless, God can be clearly seen through what has been made, right? Yet not everyone believes God even exists. The Gospel can be clearly seen in Scripture too I'd argue, yet not everyone believes in such hope.

Well, I don't want to bury the truth, but I can't accept Christ as God. So, what now? Eternal hell?
Meh...

you might see that Scripture--which is not the Word, btw--is meant to divide joints from marrow; hence the physical divisions into sects, which reveal Apostasy. When Scripture clearly delineates "faith" from "beliefs" in other areas; satan believes, too, and trembles. Christ came to be an example, that even the Sunni's Book proclaims one "must follow, or be doomed." (the Heifer, i think? several other places, also)

So imo, you are right to believe in One God--as did not even Christ state "Why do you call Me good?"--and reject any doctrine of Apostate "Trinity" that cannot be Witnessed by a holistic view of Scripture in your opinion, only ("Seek your own salvation"), led by the Spirit, as Scripture suggests. Sorry, commands.

Divisions really don't matter like some people think,divisions does nothing to change the truth of God's word. A person will either choose to do things God's way or not. It is everybody's responsibility to make sure they are following the truth. Denominations do not change the truth of God's word,it is just people choosing to focus more on certain parts of God's word for the most part,but at the end of it only those who have been saved by Jesus will be justified. It is very hard today to not be able to discover truth in God's word. We have bibles,concordances,bible study guides,etc translated into most languages of the world and yet people think they are somehow excused from discovering the truth. It is a weak excuse that will hold no water at all when they are standing before God on judgment day. The truth and how a person followed it will matter and if your name is in the Lamb's book of life.

nice. but we are all conflicted, and it might be beneficial to see that people do not intentionally deceive; the most Literal-reading Fundie here is telling the truth, as they see it; and we might all be compared with little children, discussing where babies come from. There was a time when i was convinced it came from mommy eating a brownie, and growing a baby in her tummy, and all of the talk of storks in the world, no matter how many other little children told me that, would sway my opinion on the matter.

There is no condemnation in those who are in Christ, iow.

abelcainsbrother wrote: All false religions teach works for salvation because they have no Savior,but we do and his name is Jesus Christ.

well, to that i would say that we need a common lexicon at "religion," as i am sure we currently differ on the definition there. You must have works, of course, it is your works that will be judged, and demonstrate your faith--which is not your "beliefs"--and so my best reply to you for now might be that my definition of "religion" = "the flip side of the coin of politics," "man's attempts to reach God, man's way," and i am pressed for time now, but i can provide the Witnesses this aft if you like.

bbyrd wrote:
well, to that i would say that we need a common lexicon at "religion," as i am sure we currently differ on the definition there. You must have works, of course, it is your works that will be judged, and demonstrate your faith--which is not your "beliefs"--and so my best reply to you for now might be that my definition of "religion" = "the flip side of the coin of politics," "man's attempts to reach God, man's way," and i am pressed for time now, but i can provide the Witnesses this aft if you like.

First, Our works are judged to determine eternal rewards, not for salvation.
Second, please just use the commonly understood term, "scripture", instead of "witnesses", if you don't want to keep having to explain yourself every time you use the term. Nobody here has ever used the term, "witnesses" to refer to scripture.

Third, please make sure you quote scripture in its proper context regarding what you believe are verses advocating your position that a believer can lose eternal life/salvation. Let's not have a repeat of your misquoting Matthew 24:13, thinking it backs your position.

RickD wrote:

bbyrd wrote:
well, to that i would say that we need a common lexicon at "religion," as i am sure we currently differ on the definition there. You must have works, of course, it is your works that will be judged, and demonstrate your faith--which is not your "beliefs"--and so my best reply to you for now might be that my definition of "religion" = "the flip side of the coin of politics," "man's attempts to reach God, man's way," and i am pressed for time now, but i can provide the Witnesses this aft if you like.

First, Our works are judged to determine eternal rewards, not for salvation.
Second, please just use the commonly understood term, "scripture", instead of "witnesses", if you don't want to keep having to explain yourself every time you use the term. Nobody here has ever used the term, "witnesses" to refer to scripture.

Third, please make sure you quote scripture in its proper context regarding what you believe are verses advocating your position that a believer can lose eternal life/salvation. Let's not have a repeat of your misquoting Matthew 24:13, thinking it backs your position.

thanks for all the advice, but wadr you have not yet shown that i misquoted Matthew, at all, and i don't see any refute in this post, either. So it is you who are being misleading, if we are going to start throwing around opinions and giving advice, which i have no desire to do, ok?

Now, do you have a Witness that demonstrates your position there, from Scripture, or do you just want to baffle me with some more bs? ty. Now either pull out your sword, and use It, or don't, but please let's not have a repeat of your opinions that are not supported by the Book, ok?

both Christ and God plainly state i must have works, for salvation, do you need the Verses for this? i would be happy to go dig them up. Yes, the Wanderers walked out of Egypt free men. No, they did not reach the Promised Land, but all died in the Wilderness, yes?

RickD wrote:

bbyrd wrote:
well, to that i would say that we need a common lexicon at "religion," as i am sure we currently differ on the definition there. You must have works, of course, it is your works that will be judged, and demonstrate your faith--which is not your "beliefs"--and so my best reply to you for now might be that my definition of "religion" = "the flip side of the coin of politics," "man's attempts to reach God, man's way," and i am pressed for time now, but i can provide the Witnesses this aft if you like.

First, Our works are judged to determine eternal rewards, not for salvation.
Second, please just use the commonly understood term, "scripture", instead of "witnesses", if you don't want to keep having to explain yourself every time you use the term. Nobody here has ever used the term, "witnesses" to refer to scripture.

Third, please make sure you quote scripture in its proper context regarding what you believe are verses advocating your position that a believer can lose eternal life/salvation. Let's not have a repeat of your misquoting Matthew 24:13, thinking it backs your position.

so, i hope you understand, you started this, with your assertion that i somehow took the verse out of context, and i have asked, quite nicely, i thought, for you to expand upon how, wherein i immediately got some proffessorial yack from one soft murderer, above, who i am sure is now done, having polished his helmet at my expense, and lacking any Witness, and if you are not interested in proving me wrong with the Book, which i don't know, but i'm pretty sure you will not be able to do, i will conclude that

He who holds out to the end will be saved,

and it only remains to determine whether this is applicable to you, and me, and every other Christian in time, or if it is some special-snowflake occurrence in some imagined Big Daddy War to end all Wars to be Feared and Worried About, Endlessly, by Apostates, ok?

Now, the passage, in MSG, for clarity, but BAM use your preferred translation, ok?

4 Jesus said, "Watch out for doomsday deceivers. (<)
5 Many leaders are going to show up with forged identities, claiming, 'I am Christ, the Messiah.' They will deceive a lot of people.
6 When reports come in of wars and rumored wars, keep your head and don't panic. This is routine history; this is no sign of the end.
7 Nation will fight nation and ruler fight ruler, over and over. Famines and earthquakes will occur in various places.
8 This is nothing compared to what is coming.
9 "They are going to throw you to the wolves and kill you, everyone hating you because you carry my name.
10 And then, going from bad to worse, it will be dog-eat-dog, everyone at each other's throat, everyone hating each other.
11 "In the confusion, lying preachers will come forward and deceive a lot of people.
12 For many others, the overwhelming spread of evil will do them in - nothing left of their love but a mound of ashes.
13 "Staying with it - that's what God requires. Stay with it to the end. You won't be sorry, and you'll be saved.

now, how, exactly, have i misrepresented this verse, again? ty

bbyrd009 wrote:

RickD wrote:

bbyrd wrote:
well, to that i would say that we need a common lexicon at "religion," as i am sure we currently differ on the definition there. You must have works, of course, it is your works that will be judged, and demonstrate your faith--which is not your "beliefs"--and so my best reply to you for now might be that my definition of "religion" = "the flip side of the coin of politics," "man's attempts to reach God, man's way," and i am pressed for time now, but i can provide the Witnesses this aft if you like.

First, Our works are judged to determine eternal rewards, not for salvation.
Second, please just use the commonly understood term, "scripture", instead of "witnesses", if you don't want to keep having to explain yourself every time you use the term. Nobody here has ever used the term, "witnesses" to refer to scripture.

Third, please make sure you quote scripture in its proper context regarding what you believe are verses advocating your position that a believer can lose eternal life/salvation. Let's not have a repeat of your misquoting Matthew 24:13, thinking it backs your position.

thanks for all the advice, but wadr you have not yet shown that i misquoted Matthew, at all, and i don't see any refute in this post, either. So it is you who are being misleading, if we are going to start throwing around opinions and giving advice, which i have no desire to do, ok?

Now, do you have a Witness that demonstrates your position there, from Scripture, or do you just want to baffle me with some more bs? ty. Now either pull out your sword, and use It, or don't, but please let's not have a repeat of your opinions that are not supported by the Book, ok?

both Christ and God plainly state i must have works, for salvation, do you need the Verses for this? i would be happy to go dig them up. Yes, the Wanderers walked out of Egypt free men. No, they did not reach the Promised Land, but all died in the Wilderness, yes?

I did show how you took Matthew 24:13 out of context, with my post here.

By chance, are you Catholic?

RickD wrote:

bbyrd009 wrote:

RickD wrote:

bbyrd wrote:
well, to that i would say that we need a common lexicon at "religion," as i am sure we currently differ on the definition there. You must have works, of course, it is your works that will be judged, and demonstrate your faith--which is not your "beliefs"--and so my best reply to you for now might be that my definition of "religion" = "the flip side of the coin of politics," "man's attempts to reach God, man's way," and i am pressed for time now, but i can provide the Witnesses this aft if you like.

First, Our works are judged to determine eternal rewards, not for salvation.
Second, please just use the commonly understood term, "scripture", instead of "witnesses", if you don't want to keep having to explain yourself every time you use the term. Nobody here has ever used the term, "witnesses" to refer to scripture.

Third, please make sure you quote scripture in its proper context regarding what you believe are verses advocating your position that a believer can lose eternal life/salvation. Let's not have a repeat of your misquoting Matthew 24:13, thinking it backs your position.

thanks for all the advice, but wadr you have not yet shown that i misquoted Matthew, at all, and i don't see any refute in this post, either. So it is you who are being misleading, if we are going to start throwing around opinions and giving advice, which i have no desire to do, ok?

Now, do you have a Witness that demonstrates your position there, from Scripture, or do you just want to baffle me with some more bs? ty. Now either pull out your sword, and use It, or don't, but please let's not have a repeat of your opinions that are not supported by the Book, ok?

both Christ and God plainly state i must have works, for salvation, do you need the Verses for this? i would be happy to go dig them up. Yes, the Wanderers walked out of Egypt free men. No, they did not reach the Promised Land, but all died in the Wilderness, yes?

I did show how you took Matthew 24:13 out of context, with my post here.

By chance, are you Catholic?

wadr that is...your opinion, and you are welcome to it. But you might reflect upon how it practically removes the effectiveness of the verse to any except the generation that might be involved in this "Rapture" that you have accepted; it thus applies to no other Christians, ever. Coughcoughbscough, wadr.

Furthermore, Word, Pneuma, Dabhar, is kept out of your reach, today, and Paul's "meeting Him in the Air" experience is nullified, by a woman, who you would not accept as your pastor, and i notice have chosen to not address the first time you heard it, above, and wadr cannot address now--which believe me, i understand, ok--without that little thread-sticky-outie thing getting pulled on some more, by me, because that is why i am here, so that you might find Word, today, and not in some future that will never, ever come, RickD. Understand I AM.

23"If anyone tells you then, Look, here is the Messiah!' or, Over here!' do not believe it!

21"Then if anyone tells you, Look, here is the Messiah! Look--there!' do not believe it!

23They will say to you, 'Look there!' or 'Look here!' Don't follow or run after them.

and i invite you to reflect upon these verses, which you have been assured also only apply to some select group of future believers in some undetermined future, completely disregarding that Christ said directly that He came in the "last days," so you might put down the ears you have, and pick up another set, that you have available to you, right now, as soon as you grasp why little children are misled by the phrase "stay here for the present," and certain soft-murdering adults think that is just oh-so-funny. You might notice that the "am" up there is emphatic, RickD, and not Titular (part of a Title), wherein "Am" would do just fine.

and no, i am not a Catholic, as i have already made plain elsewhere. i am a Priest--just like you are--sprouted, in my case, from Oneness Pentecostalism, aka "the Pentecostal Inquisition," although i now believe all things. peace

Yes,

I just noticed you said you are a oneness Pentecostal.

FYI, You are not going to last long here, being a member of that cult, preaching a false gospel.

We don't put up with people trying to make this forum a pulpit for their false gospel.

bbyrd009 wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:The majority of Christian denominations share in the same general message...

yes, and this is termed Apostasy, wadr.

I didn't mean those that share in similar heresies, like Oneness, JWs and like.

@bbyrd, here is a thread for you: Understanding the Trinity