AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Yes, there is that thing that after you submit to God, if you let Him, He will mould you into a better shape. But that has nothing to do with the salvation thing (other than the fact it occurs after being saved).
That was not what I saw as the question, the question is whether heaven is certain for believers.
Actually the point i was trying to make is that it will take time for you to see the first fruits of salvation, so any certainty as to its existence is going to take some time. The early stages of the walk take more faith than the latter.
And to anticipate a point that could be made; salvation must be a process as long as you are alive because it seems that you can delay or opt out of it by using your free will.
That was not what I saw as the question, the question is whether heaven is certain for believers.
It was a side argument I was answering.
Actually the point i was trying to make is that it will take time for you to see the first fruits of salvation, so any certainty as to its existence is going to take some time. The early stages of the walk take more faith than the latter.
Fruits of salvation are external, visible signs that you are a Christian (the gifts of the Holy Spirit). But you're a Christian before those still.
And to anticipate a point that could be made; salvation must be a process as long as you are alive because it seems that you can delay or opt out of it by using your free will.
Salvation is the act of being saved from hell, and it's not a process that you can opt out of. You can opt out of allowing God to change you, but you're still saved.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."
He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin
-Winston Churchill
An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.
You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous
Go Kmart! Yes, salvation is secure. My belief is that if you ever "fall from grace" you never had it to begin with, but were close enough theologically to call it that (?). Once saved from all sins, past, present and future, unbelief is included in that seeing as how it is a sin itself! If salvation once thought obtained is obviously "lost", (turning completely against God,) then I say it was never had at all. You can be sure of your salvation through faith in God's Word on it, and you should be for the most part. A little doubting while you generally are confident of it doesn't mean you're not saved, but if you ask yourself, "where would I go tonight if I died?" and you're fairly worried or concerned, you need to reassess your faith and go over the Scripture on it.
And let's be clear on this one point for sure: good works will not make you more acceptable for heaven. No one deserves to go there; it is wholly a gift. You cannot earn it in any regard, to any degree or amount. There's a verse that I think is in the OT, but it says that our good deeds are like filthy rags to God. We're just too sinful in and of ourselves. Salvations's either all Christ's work or nothing. The Bible is clear on that.
Here's some verses that will be very helpful to the discussion on sin: Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Here "flesh" means our sinful natures. With our inner wills and hearts we hate all sin, but with our sinful nature residing in us it can cause us to also will to sin and be fond of sin to a certain degree. Christians worry about this all the time, and only because they don't know the difference between these things. You like the sin, but you don't like that you like it, and in general- don't like the sin! This does not mean that you "regard" that sin in your heart, but merely that your sinful nature, (which Christ separated from you through His work on the Cross,) likes it, but that your true heart and will don't. It is not sinful to experience this conflict, but an indication of the war between flesh and spirit within you.
It is truly a battle that can consume, but Paul says there's good news: Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord...For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin (Romans 7:24-8:3). Christ set us free from having to necessarily go through this constant struggle by freeing us spritually from our sinful natures. Through faith we claim this so that we can see it take place in our daily lives. Countless Christians through the years have lived this life and have written very detailed accounts of it, as well as books teaching the basics of what this life is all about and how God brings it about within you. This is what the famous Kewick conventions were traditionally on, if you've heard of them, though a lot of inaccurate teaching has been done there.
I can elaborate more if anyone wishes, here or in pms or e-mail, but I think I've done plenty elaboration here already for most! Sorry if I got carried away, but this is very important stuff that most Christians never even hear of, (despite it being all over in their Bibles.)
