The Most Wild View On Creation

[Kurieuo]

Now ACB has a gap buddy.

[RickD]

Now ACB has a gap buddy.

[PaulSacramento]

Jeremiah was given a vision of the Genesis 1:2 earth in this state and he clarifies what happened to make the earth like this, "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger." (Jeremiah 4:23-26). It is often claimed that Jeremiah is speaking of the land of Israel, not the whole earth. But Jeremiah beheld the earth and saw that it was WITHOUT FORM (without a solid structure). It was filled with water. The mountains and hills in this vision must then have been underwate

r.

You are reading a view into this and not allowing what was written to say what it says.
Not very good exegetes.

Jeremiah did NOT see underwater mountains or he would have said so.
There must have been land because there was a"fruitful place in the wilderness".
So what did Jeremiah mean when He said that he beheld the Earth without Form , it was void and the heavens had no light?

Well, depends on your translation of course but here is the NASB, in context:



Lament over Judah’s Devastation
19 My [g]soul, my [h]soul! I am in anguish! Oh, my heart!
My heart is pounding in me;
I cannot be silent,
Because [j]you have heard, O my soul,
The sound of the trumpet,
The alarm of war.
20 Disaster on disaster is proclaimed,
For the whole land is devastated;
Suddenly my tents are devastated,
My curtains in an instant.
21 How long must I see the standard
And hear the sound of the trumpet?
22 “For My people are foolish,
They know Me not;
They are stupid children
And have no understanding.
They are shrewd to do evil,
But to do good they do not know.”
23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was [k] formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills [l]moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, [m]the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.
27 For thus says the Lord,
“The whole land shall be a desolation,
Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
28 “For this the earth shall mourn
And the heavens above be dark,
Because I have spoken, I have purposed,
And I will not [n]change My mind, nor will I turn from it.”
29 At the sound of the horseman and bowman every city flees;
They go into the thickets and climb among the rocks;
Every city is forsaken,
And no man dwells in them.
30 And you, O desolate one, what will you do?
Although you dress in scarlet,
Although you decorate yourself with ornaments of gold,
Although you enlarge your eyes with paint,
In vain you make yourself beautiful.
Your [o]lovers despise you;
They seek your life.
31 For I heard a [p]cry as of a woman in labor,
The anguish as of one giving birth to her first child,
The [q]cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath,
Stretching out her [r]hands, saying,
“Ah, woe is me, for I faint before murderers.”

As you can see, it is a vision of the devastation of Israel.

[PaulSacramento]

And a link to the whole chapter with the NET version:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NET

[Philip]

Oh, nnnnnnnnnnnnnnooooooooo!!! Now there are TWO of them. Please don't encourage Abel! And the forum server can only hold so many GAP posts. It's grammatically unsupportable, historically, Scripturally, archaeologically, etc., etc. And you'll not convert one person due to this theory. So obsession with it isn't healthy - a real waste of time - and server space!

[jalvarez4Jesus]

You are reading a view into this and not allowing what was written to say what it says.
Not very good exegetes.

Jeremiah did NOT see underwater mountains or he would have said so.
There must have been land because there was a"fruitful place in the wilderness".
So what did Jeremiah mean when He said that he beheld the Earth without Form , it was void and the heavens had no light?

You're missing the whole point. Just think: what does "without form" mean? In Genesis 1:2, the meaning is plain -- there was no solid structure or form to the earth. It was just a big mass of water. You couldn't stand on something without form. That is verified by the fact that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the WATERS. Apply that to Jeremiah. Jeremiah says he saw the earth WITHOUT FORM. This means without any solid structure. He saw a bunch of water. Ergo, the only mountains he could see must have been under the water. If they were above the water, then he could not describe the earth as being WITHOUT FORM. The mountains would have been FORM enough! And the fruitful place WHICH BECAME A WILDERNESS according to the KJV would also be underwater, otherwise the earth would have had some "form". God gave Jeremiah that vision to tell Israel of His power to destroy evildoers, that is true. But it is also true that this is a vision of the earth at Genesis 1:2. And at Genesis 1:2, the earth was destroyed because of sin. Ergo, gap.

[Kurieuo]

I agree with your without form post, earth being coated with water early on. Though that's what science tells me, and appears to be supported in Scripture. As for Earth becoming desolate, such is eisegesis.

[jalvarez4Jesus]

I agree with your without form post, earth being coated with water early on. Though that's what science tells me, and appears to be supported in Scripture. As for Earth becoming desolate, such is eisegesis.

It's not eisegesis. It's plainly taught in Jeremiah 4. And Jeremiah beheld the earth that it was without form and void (watery). He couldn't have been talking about the land of Israel. He was talking about the Genesis 1:2 earth.

[PaulSacramento]

You are reading a view into this and not allowing what was written to say what it says.
Not very good exegetes.

Jeremiah did NOT see underwater mountains or he would have said so.
There must have been land because there was a"fruitful place in the wilderness".
So what did Jeremiah mean when He said that he beheld the Earth without Form , it was void and the heavens had no light?

You're missing the whole point. Just think: what does "without form" mean? In Genesis 1:2, the meaning is plain -- there was no solid structure or form to the earth. It was just a big mass of water. You couldn't stand on something without form. That is verified by the fact that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the WATERS. Apply that to Jeremiah. Jeremiah says he saw the earth WITHOUT FORM. This means without any solid structure. He saw a bunch of water. Ergo, the only mountains he could see must have been under the water. If they were above the water, then he could not describe the earth as being WITHOUT FORM. The mountains would have been FORM enough! And the fruitful place WHICH BECAME A WILDERNESS according to the KJV would also be underwater, otherwise the earth would have had some "form". God gave Jeremiah that vision to tell Israel of His power to destroy evildoers, that is true. But it is also true that this is a vision of the earth at Genesis 1:2. And at Genesis 1:2, the earth was destroyed because of sin. Ergo, gap.

I think you are missing the KEY point and that is the WHOLE CONTEXT of that Chapter.
Please re-read Chapter 4.

[PaulSacramento]

I agree with your without form post, earth being coated with water early on. Though that's what science tells me, and appears to be supported in Scripture. As for Earth becoming desolate, such is eisegesis.

It's not eisegesis. It's plainly taught in Jeremiah 4. And Jeremiah beheld the earth that it was without form and void (watery). He couldn't have been talking about the land of Israel. He was talking about the Genesis 1:2 earth.

No, he wasn't and the sequence of events SHOWS that:

22 The Lord answered,

“This will happen because my people are foolish.
They do not know me.
They are like children who have no sense.
They have no understanding.
They are skilled at doing evil.
They do not know how to do good.”
23 “I looked at the land and saw that it was an empty wasteland.
I looked up at the sky, and its light had vanished.
24 I looked at the mountains and saw that they were shaking.
All the hills were swaying back and forth!
25 I looked and saw that there were no more people,
and that all the birds in the sky had flown away.
26 I looked and saw that the fruitful land had become a desert
and that all of the cities had been laid in ruins.
The Lord had brought this all about
because of his blazing anger.
27 All this will happen because the Lord said,
“The whole land will be desolate;
however, I will not completely destroy it.
28 Because of this the land will mourn
and the sky above will grow black.
For I have made my purpose known
and I will not relent or turn back from carrying it out.”
29 At the sound of the approaching horsemen and archers
the people of every town will flee.
Some of them will hide in the thickets.
Others will climb up among the rocks.
All the cities will be deserted.
No one will remain in them.
30 And you, Zion, city doomed to destruction,
you accomplish nothing by wearing a beautiful dress,
decking yourself out in jewels of gold,
and putting on eye shadow!
You are making yourself beautiful for nothing.
Your lovers spurn you.
They want to kill you.
31 In fact, I hear a cry like that of a woman in labor,
a cry of anguish like that of a woman giving birth to her first baby.
It is the cry of Daughter Zion gasping for breath,
reaching out for help, saying, “I am done in!
My life is ebbing away before these murderers!”

[jalvarez4Jesus]

You are reading a view into this and not allowing what was written to say what it says.
Not very good exegetes.

Jeremiah did NOT see underwater mountains or he would have said so.
There must have been land because there was a"fruitful place in the wilderness".
So what did Jeremiah mean when He said that he beheld the Earth without Form , it was void and the heavens had no light?

You're missing the whole point. Just think: what does "without form" mean? In Genesis 1:2, the meaning is plain -- there was no solid structure or form to the earth. It was just a big mass of water. You couldn't stand on something without form. That is verified by the fact that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the WATERS. Apply that to Jeremiah. Jeremiah says he saw the earth WITHOUT FORM. This means without any solid structure. He saw a bunch of water. Ergo, the only mountains he could see must have been under the water. If they were above the water, then he could not describe the earth as being WITHOUT FORM. The mountains would have been FORM enough! And the fruitful place WHICH BECAME A WILDERNESS according to the KJV would also be underwater, otherwise the earth would have had some "form". God gave Jeremiah that vision to tell Israel of His power to destroy evildoers, that is true. But it is also true that this is a vision of the earth at Genesis 1:2. And at Genesis 1:2, the earth was destroyed because of sin. Ergo, gap.

I think you are missing the KEY point and that is the WHOLE CONTEXT of that Chapter.
Please re-read Chapter 4.

I did. And it's to Israel, yes. But Jeremiah's vision was not one of Israel. It was of a world without form and void. God was merely using that vision of Genesis 1:2 to demonstrate to the Jews that He can destroy sinners as He did in Genesis 1:2.

[jalvarez4Jesus]

Tell me, why would Israel be a watery place (without form) in Jeremiah's vision?

[PaulSacramento]

You are reading your view INTO what is written.

[Kurieuo]

And the mountains quaking, hills swaying? Birds in the sky flown away? No, you yourself said the mountains were not raised and water cover the whole earth i.e., without form. Such contradicts Jer 4 when taken in its total context. You'd need more, it doesn't look to be a reference to Gen 1:2 really at all. One needs to breakit away from its immediate context, but then why do that?

[PaulSacramento]

You seem to be focusing on the "without form", which is "tohuw", which is from the root word to lay waste, and here are all the places the word appears in:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 8414&t=KJV

Are you suggesting they all refer to Genesis also?