Evidence for God from Science

Ken: ...is it fair to punish someone who didn't have a chance, if so; wouldn't it be better to allow as many to remain ignorant in order to get as many in heaven as possible?

MANY have died saved that knew nothing of Christianity - that is, specifically, of the Gospel and Jesus' sacrifice. But they were saved, prior to Christ coming, because they had faith in the very same Triune God that Christians believe in, and of which Jesus was/is/has ALWAYS been part of. And yes, EVERYONE has a chance to believe in and honor God, because Scripture says, while men have suppressed their knowledge of Him, even those born before Jesus came into the world, have known of His existence and basic things about Him. But it says they denied and suppressed what they ALREADY knew, to the point that they instead turned to all manner of other things and self-made idols to take the place of God in their lives. And so, Romans indicates that such people have already and permanently avoided and rejected even the basic things of Himself that God has ALREADY shown them. And He also accuses them of being ungrateful for what He has already shown, given and provided them (material blessings and provisions of sustenance, in addition to knowledge that He exists). And so THAT is the extent of the "chance" God gives many. Likely, because He so intimately knows the real motivations and attitudes of hard hearts that He foreknows all for whom NO amount of knowledge of Himself will ever be appreciated or not permanently avoided/rejected. God knows that, for many, the Gospel is useless information, as akin to precious gold that they would just further reject. People COULD have the Gospel, if they only wouldn't permanently reject all God shows them beforehand. And so they do this because they want to remain their own little god, and NOT because they have some asserted knowledge deficit!

To repeat what I've said many times: NO place, jungle, era/time, etc. is a problem for God to reach those who desire to know more about Himself, among those willing to not permanently avoid Him, who will - with His help - begin to obey and desire Him. And communicating with God is as close as one's own breath. But there are many for whom only FORCING them to believe would make them do so. This, He will not do. We truly do have free will when it comes to accepting or rejecting God! But that doesn't mean He provides everyone the same level of information about Himself. Again, because, for those NEVER given the Gospel (whether through human contact, or supernaturally supplied by God Himself) - knowledge of God is not their problem. The problem is in their deliberately unbelieving hearts and minds.

If people desire to know God, I am convinced He will honor that, to the level their desire is willing to accept and not reject.

If the bible is true then there is no way any people on earth have not heard of God,they have forgot about him,etc to be able to say they never heard of the God of the bible,plus God can send angels to give people messages no matter where they live,and take like the burning bush in which God communicated with Moses,and God can give dreams and visions.So nobody can say nobody has heard and so it would be cruel for God to send them to hell for not knowing.

The Bible IS true -- and God is the Only one who knows who will accept Him and who Won't. God is Not 'sending' anyone to hell for not knowing. People Choose to accept or reject. Their own personal actions are allowing them to go to either heaven or hell.

Philip wrote:

Ken: ...is it fair to punish someone who didn't have a chance, if so; wouldn't it be better to allow as many to remain ignorant in order to get as many in heaven as possible?

MANY have died saved that knew nothing of Christianity - that is, specifically, of the Gospel and Jesus' sacrifice. But they were saved, prior to Christ coming, because they had faith in the very same Triune God that Christians believe in, and of which Jesus was/is/has ALWAYS been part of. And yes, EVERYONE has a chance to believe in and honor God, because Scripture says, while men have suppressed their knowledge of Him, even those born before Jesus came into the world, have known of His existence and basic things about Him.

Consider the example of a person who was born, lived, and died, in a village in 14th century west Africa; long before the transatlantic slave trade when Christianity was introduced to the people who lived there via slavery. The only idea of God he knows of is Amma; a non Christian God. How could such a person attain knowledge of Jesus?

Ken

abelcainsbrother wrote:If the bible is true then there is no way any people on earth have not heard of God,they have forgot about him,etc to be able to say they never heard of the God of the bible,plus God can send angels to give people messages no matter where they live,and take like the burning bush in which God communicated with Moses,and God can give dreams and visions.So nobody can say nobody has heard and so it would be cruel for God to send them to hell for not knowing.

Consider the example of a person who was born, lived, and died, in a village in 14th century west Africa; long before the transatlantic slave trade when Christianity was introduced to the people who lived there via slavery. The only idea of God he knows of is Amma; a non Christian God. How could such a person attain knowledge of Jesus?

Ken

crochet1949 wrote:The Bible IS true -- and God is the Only one who knows who will accept Him and who Won't. God is Not 'sending' anyone to hell for not knowing. People Choose to accept or reject. Their own personal actions are allowing them to go to either heaven or hell.

So as long as a person's actions are good, they can go to Heaven; even if they are not Christian?

Ken

Kenny wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:The Bible IS true -- and God is the Only one who knows who will accept Him and who Won't. God is Not 'sending' anyone to hell for not knowing. People Choose to accept or reject. Their own personal actions are allowing them to go to either heaven or hell.

So as long as a person's actions are good, they can go to Heaven; even if they are not Christian?

Ken

The bible tells us that those that do not believe, will be judged based on their actions and the intent behind their actions.
While the bible does NOT state EXPLICITLY that non-believers will be judged righteous enough to not be condemned, it does state that all those who's names are in the "book of life" will be saved from punishment.
IMO, I believe that a person that has tried to do good in their life and, for no fault of their own, has not KNOWN the Gospel that yes, they will not be punished.
Of course, the issue is that they would NOT have KNOWN the Gospel due to no fault of their own.
Not those that REJECT Christ, not those that have invented a Christ to reject and not those that have used excuses not to believe.
See, that is why ONLY God judges because He KNOWS why a person would reject Christ, only He KNOWS why a person would choose to reject the offer of salvation to rely on themselves.

Paul: I believe that a person that has tried to do good in their life and, for no fault of their own, has not KNOWN the Gospel that yes, they will not be punished.

Romans 2:12 suggests differently: For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Romans 2:14-16 expounds further: For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

And here's a question: If those without the Gospel are to be pardoned out of ignorance - why, WHY the Great Commission's great importance? What is the urgency for those without the Gospel? And if such people are pardoned DUE TO THEIR IGNORANCE, then why, pray tell, would we want to risk them subsequently rejecting the Gospel after missionaries bring it to them???!!! If true, wouldn't it save many more without the Gospel, to simply let them live and die ignorant of Christ?

Romans 10 states: :13 for “Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!”

Luke 12 is interesting, as a parable about being ready for the Lord's return: "Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at table, and he will come and serve them." Also: "And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating." 48But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

So, we have absolutely no clear statement in Scripture that one can be saved apart from faith in Christ, once He was revealed to the world. Actually, much the opposite - Scripture says: A) We need to be saved; B) Works will not save us; C) That the Gospel IS exclusive, in that, only THROUGH JESUS, can anyone be saved. We could argue about what THAT might entail that we can't know, see or hear. But it must be before death, per Scripture (Hebrews 9:27).

A few more thoughts: Romans tells us that God has revealed and made plain to them His existence and basic attributes "since the creation of the world," to ALL men, although men have suppressed this knowledge due to hard hearts and resistance, and through replacing God's rightful presence in their lives with whatever false gods (including themselves) they soever desire. So while people say they "don't know if God exists," on some level and at some point, they DID know of at least His existence, although they may no longer are aware of it due to their own determination to suppress and deny it. So, the theoretical person that hasn't the Gospel or The Law, nonetheless knows of God's existence. Scripture says they can, and most men DO, reject even that. And that this rejection of what they DO know, even though very limited, is enough to condemn them. The Apostle Paul tells us that ANYONE can communicate with God because He is a close as their own breath. So, if God has made men aware of His existence, and as they CAN communicate with Him to honor Him and to know more - BUT THEY FAIL TO - really, who is this theoretical man who would obey God if He only knew of Him? The evidence of Scripture and our own observations is most people don't want anything to do with God. The reality, makes it very possible that God put people in place and time that would never hear the Gospel BECAUSE He knew this additional knowledge would only be a further rejection made by those denying Him. And they don't need to know about Jesus to deny God, even though they only know some basic things about Him.

Ken: Consider the example of a person who was born, lived, and died, in a village in 14th century west Africa; long before the transatlantic slave trade when Christianity was introduced to the people who lived there via slavery. The only idea of God he knows of is Amma; a non Christian God. How could such a person attain knowledge of Jesus?

As Scripture is true, then God has made everyone aware, on some level, of His existence and basic attributes. At some point, those repressing this basic knowledge have obscured it so as that many no longer even realize He exists. But PRIOR to their suppression of their knowledge of God's basics, they could either communicate with and honor Him with their gratitude and appreciation, and sincerely seek Him, OR instead, they could latch onto false beliefs in some cult god they were introduced to. God says their consciences know the difference in what and Who they are following. God says He honors those who sincerely seek Him, and gives them plentiful reasons and understandings to do so. HE is how they COULD attain knowledge of Jesus, but ONLY If they desire to honor, know and obey God AS HE HAS FIRST ALREADY REVEALED HIMSELF TO THEM - as that basic revelation is enough for people to either desire to seek God and know more about Him, OR they can permanently deny, resist and avoid Him. Scripture says most men do the latter. If God sees a person honoring Him, He can send a missionary, send a dream, vision, or whatever He knows will work. Let's not forget also that God knows ALL things, sees all future things, knows all present and future hearts, minds and motivations. So He knows how to connect, in history, time and place, those who will desire to not permanently resist Him, who WILL begin to listen and obey, and who will stubbornly resist Him forever. So, knowing which camp everyone will ultimately choose, and knowing this FOREVER, He can plot where He will put people in place and time. And so those He places so as to NEVER have the Gospel, may well have been put in such places due to the fact that He foreknows that they will forever resist Him, no matter how much about Himself He might reveal to them.

Philip, there is no way possible for everyone to learn the Gospel.
If judgment day would be tomorrow, think of all those that the Gospel has not reached or they don't understand or don't know it.
They will be judged accordingly.
There are no righteous people, of course, we know this BUT in this hypothetical scenario given us we must accept that God knows Who are His, even if THEY don't know it yet.

Paul: If judgment day would be tomorrow, think of all those that the Gospel has not reached or they don't understand or don't know it.

Do you really think God would come tomorrow, IF there was even one left that He KNOWS would eventually believe? I believe ALL will be saved that CAN be saved (that is, that won't permanently resist Him).

Paul: They will be judged accordingly.
There are no righteous people, of course, we know this BUT in this hypothetical scenario given us

If you are saying that people can be saved apart from the Gospel, then that is entirely unScriptural! If we are saying that God provides the necessary knowledge to some, before death, but yet not in a way tangible or observable to us - of course, that would be expected. But SOMEHOW, a person must know the Gospel and accept it - this is the plain teaching of Scripture. ANY understandings beyond what it plainly teaches are uncertain. And for Christians, who engage others over this subject, their question should not be about those for whom we are not the judge of (GOD is!), it for those who DO know of the Christian message, but who have not yet embraced it. We must accept that the vast majority of people reject God. Look all around us, in North America. Gospel and churches everyone. Online, the Gospel is all over the world, and in many remote places. Apologetics proliferate. And look how small the percentage of people who don't avoid, resist or deny it. And so why would we suppose that those without the Gospel, percentage wise, are any different? And did God not know precisely who he put in places without the Gospel before He did so? Of course! Was this an accident? So silly to think so! So I believe God will either miraculously or otherwise reach ALL with the Gospel, of those that will be saved, post Christ arrival. People tend to limit what and where God can reach, because they only see things in earthly limitations. So just because God limited where the Gospel has reached BY MAN, doesn't limit what HE does!

Paul: we must accept that God knows Who are His, even if THEY don't know it yet.

Of course! And Who are His - those who respond in faith and obedience to what He shows them. And what has He stated that is necessary to salvation: Faith in Jesus! Period! So, SOMEHOW, for those who end up saved, that has to happen. People act as if all these people would have faith if they only had the Gospel. We have no way of knowing that, and so we just must accept that this is critical to do. People sat at the feet of Jesus, heard His incredible words, watched unbelievable miracles, but still refused to believe. And that is true of most humans.

Kenny wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:The Bible IS true -- and God is the Only one who knows who will accept Him and who Won't. God is Not 'sending' anyone to hell for not knowing. People Choose to accept or reject. Their own personal actions are allowing them to go to either heaven or hell.

So as long as a person's actions are good, they can go to Heaven; even if they are not Christian?

Ken

What I meant is that a person's decision to reject God's gift of salvation is what 'sends' the person to hell. God's gift has been made available to All -- and it's up to the individual to accept to reject that gift.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:The Bible IS true -- and God is the Only one who knows who will accept Him and who Won't. God is Not 'sending' anyone to hell for not knowing. People Choose to accept or reject. Their own personal actions are allowing them to go to either heaven or hell.

So as long as a person's actions are good, they can go to Heaven; even if they are not Christian?

Ken

The bible tells us that those that do not believe, will be judged based on their actions and the intent behind their actions.
While the bible does NOT state EXPLICITLY that non-believers will be judged righteous enough to not be condemned, it does state that all those who's names are in the "book of life" will be saved from punishment.
IMO, I believe that a person that has tried to do good in their life and, for no fault of their own, has not KNOWN the Gospel that yes, they will not be punished.
Of course, the issue is that they would NOT have KNOWN the Gospel due to no fault of their own.
Not those that REJECT Christ, not those that have invented a Christ to reject and not those that have used excuses not to believe.
See, that is why ONLY God judges because He KNOWS why a person would reject Christ, only He KNOWS why a person would choose to reject the offer of salvation to rely on themselves.

Doesn't God's Word assure us that no one is going to slip through the cracks -- that for 'whatever' reason --a person will Not hear the Gospel unto salvation -- so God will excuse them and accept their good life.

I Also believe that once a person Does end up in hell --that there are various degrees of hell. Maybe it's simply what I'd Like to be the case. That the really Bad people will suffer more than the good person who simply never took the time to accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior.

But there is Also the Scripture that God sees All our righteousnesses as filthy rags.

So -- born-again believers are left in this world to be a light in a dark world. We are to live lives that attract people To Jesus Christ -- when we feel led to speak to someone -- Do it -- lovingly, good manners. So - we can feel assured that we personally Are sharing Christ / salvation so that no ones blood will be on our personal hands in eternity.

crochet1949 wrote:

Kenny wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:The Bible IS true -- and God is the Only one who knows who will accept Him and who Won't. God is Not 'sending' anyone to hell for not knowing. People Choose to accept or reject. Their own personal actions are allowing them to go to either heaven or hell.

So as long as a person's actions are good, they can go to Heaven; even if they are not Christian?

Ken

What I meant is that a person's decision to reject God's gift of salvation is what 'sends' the person to hell. God's gift has been made available to All -- and it's up to the individual to accept to reject that gift.

And what about the guy that was never told about the gift?

Ken

crochet1949 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:The Bible IS true -- and God is the Only one who knows who will accept Him and who Won't. God is Not 'sending' anyone to hell for not knowing. People Choose to accept or reject. Their own personal actions are allowing them to go to either heaven or hell.

So as long as a person's actions are good, they can go to Heaven; even if they are not Christian?

Ken

The bible tells us that those that do not believe, will be judged based on their actions and the intent behind their actions.
While the bible does NOT state EXPLICITLY that non-believers will be judged righteous enough to not be condemned, it does state that all those who's names are in the "book of life" will be saved from punishment.
IMO, I believe that a person that has tried to do good in their life and, for no fault of their own, has not KNOWN the Gospel that yes, they will not be punished.
Of course, the issue is that they would NOT have KNOWN the Gospel due to no fault of their own.
Not those that REJECT Christ, not those that have invented a Christ to reject and not those that have used excuses not to believe.
See, that is why ONLY God judges because He KNOWS why a person would reject Christ, only He KNOWS why a person would choose to reject the offer of salvation to rely on themselves.

Doesn't God's Word assure us that no one is going to slip through the cracks -- that for 'whatever' reason --a person will Not hear the Gospel unto salvation -- so God will excuse them and accept their good life.

I Also believe that once a person Does end up in hell --that there are various degrees of hell. Maybe it's simply what I'd Like to be the case. That the really Bad people will suffer more than the good person who simply never took the time to accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior.

But there is Also the Scripture that God sees All our righteousnesses as filthy rags.

So -- born-again believers are left in this world to be a light in a dark world. We are to live lives that attract people To Jesus Christ -- when we feel led to speak to someone -- Do it -- lovingly, good manners. So - we can feel assured that we personally Are sharing Christ / salvation so that no ones blood will be on our personal hands in eternity.

We need to make the distinction between those that have not heard or can't understand the gospel as opposed to those that choose to reject it.
I am sure that we all can agree that those without the mental capacity to understand the gospel will NOT be judged the same as those that reject, yes? even if they don't believe.
There are still places in the world that the Gospel have not reached, others that it has been prevented to reach, so I think we can all agree that those people will not be judged like those that reject Christ, yes?
I think that the fate of unbelievers that have not rejected Christ is in the hands of God, and rightly so.
We should just leave it at that.