Evidence for God from Science

jenna wrote:hey i just realized that AreEl's profile and Rick's former location on his profile look strangely similar. what's up with that?

Not sure what you mean. May want to check again.

RickD wrote:

jenna wrote:hey i just realized that AreEl's profile and Rick's former location on his profile look strangely similar. what's up with that?

Not sure what you mean. May want to check again.

so one is north and one is south.

IceMobster wrote:Damn, dude. You don't have to read or reply to this thread or anything I post. Better go read a book other than the Bible to widen your intellectual knowledge, eh?

I'd like to read intelligently-written, thought-provoking books but I'm naturally attracted to crap.
I'll continue reading your posts.

AreEl wrote:

IceMobster wrote:Damn, dude. You don't have to read or reply to this thread or anything I post. Better go read a book other than the Bible to widen your intellectual knowledge, eh?

I'd like to read intelligently-written, thought-provoking books but I'm naturally attracted to crap.
I'll continue reading your posts.

Magnificent. Would you be so kind and explain why are you a YEC, then, since it clearly contradicts science and reason?

Kurieuo wrote:Coming from a Christian upbringing where spiritual experience was primary, it took me a while to learn that spiritual experiences don't necessarily legitimise truth.

If I read you correctly, you're interested in the experiential side of things and checking that out for yourself. Of course, such is interesting, and I'd hope all Christians have experiences of some sort with God. It's like a form of verification.

Have you not attended a Hillsong or other charismatic church? I wouldn't encourage such normally, but then -- you coming from the rational side, they do offer an experiential side since its what they major on along with all their far-outness. Theology-wise, they suck, but spiritually... if you're after an experience at least they don't cultivate you, though some might try you're free to come and go as you please.

Could you elaborate on the first paragraph? How can you know any of the spiritual experiences are true?
Liiiiike.... Whilst you are in such a stance of deep prayer or spiritual renewal or simply dreaming or in sleep paralysis (or perhaps even lucid dream?), Jesus in some way appears in front of you and says something wise or simple (such as, "I love you"). How do you know that is not actually Satan posing as Christ (2 Cor 11:14)?
And yes, yes, Scripture says question all of that 1 John 4:1 but how do you bloody know in the end?

You have no idea how many times this friend of mine told me that this is it. This is the truth. "Forget the Catholic Church, the priests, the sacraments, the... I am 100% certain this is the truth. I've met God."
So, there, he truly believes that is the truth and says that the Early Church was manipulated by Satan into teaching the false doctrine of Trinity. Like, if you ask me, that is far stretched big time. If Satan deceived such earliest and greatest theologians, what makes you so sure he didn't trick you, as well? Where was that Holy Spirit to prevent that?

The only song I heard from Hillsong is "I surrender" (it's great) and we do not have (m)any charismatic churches. All of it is Catholic, except for like one Mormon church that I know of in my city.



Ehhh, plot twist. I've read a bit on them. It seems they do believe in Trinity after all. THIS IS IT! I AM SOLD! kktnxbb
But yeah, Christ was not always God and other heresies...

IceMobster wrote:Magnificent. Would you be so kind and explain why are you a YEC, then, since it clearly contradicts science and reason?

YEC isn't the subject being discussed, Einstein. Your post is about hocus-pocus spirituality and how one blind & ignorant guy can help his equally blind & ignorant buddies find their way to Truth.

My prescription for you is to share a nice big spliff with your buddies. That should bring you closer to the Nirvana you seek.

AreEl wrote:.

IceMobster wrote:

AreEl wrote:.

You really need to smoke that big spliff to get some sense into you!
Roll it, smoke it & share it with the others on your ward.
Then come back and post something sensible.

I like it how you do not want to explain your delusional YEC worldview because that would be off-topic, but you have no problem continuing with posting nonsense here.

IceMobster wrote:I like it how you do not want to explain your delusional YEC worldview because that would be off-topic, but you have no problem continuing with posting nonsense here.

I'm giving you excellent advice on the topic you raised in this thread.
My advice is by far the best you've received on this matter so far.
It's the only advice that will give you the "spiritual" experience you are searching for.
And you'll get it immediately!

Following the other members' advice will only result in you being more confused than right now.

IceMobster wrote:I like it how you do not want to explain your delusional YEC worldview because that would be off-topic, but you have no problem continuing with posting nonsense here.

ok, jumping in the middle here. Ice, are you a believer in God or not? you say you are not Christian, but then you tease someone about a YEC belief.

AreEl wrote:IceCrapster,

Stop worrying about going to your mumbo-jumbo meeting! Just go to your seance and leave us alone! You're not even Christian, so what's the problem? Pray to the Dalaï-lama, dump a dozen oranges at the foot of a Buddha statue or dance around a totem pole for all I care.

Then come back and tell us how spiritual you are so we can have a good laugh.

AreEl, any member at this board, Christian or non-Christian, should be shown courtesy and respect. Your post here, with IceCrapster and general mockery and disdain shown I find personally quite inappropriate, especially coming from a Christian. Please read over the board guidelines for proper etiquette in dialogue, in particular:

• Mannerism
  Within discussions, please be civil and courteous and do not resort to personal attacks. If you feel inappropriately attacked, please bring such cases privately to a moderator who can then intervene as necessary. While these instructions are likely unnecessary for the vast majority of participants, here is some biblical advice to help serve as a guide for conversations:
  
  • Write in a manner that you would want others to write to you - "in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you" (Matthew 7:12).
  • "But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth." (Colossians 3:8)
  • "Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned, as it were, with salt, so that you may know how you should respond to each person." (Colossians 4:6)
  • "In all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us." (Titus 2:7-8)

IM wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Coming from a Christian upbringing where spiritual experience was primary, it took me a while to learn that spiritual experiences don't necessarily legitimise truth.

If I read you correctly, you're interested in the experiential side of things and checking that out for yourself. Of course, such is interesting, and I'd hope all Christians have experiences of some sort with God. It's like a form of verification.

Have you not attended a Hillsong or other charismatic church? I wouldn't encourage such normally, but then -- you coming from the rational side, they do offer an experiential side since its what they major on along with all their far-outness. Theology-wise, they suck, but spiritually... if you're after an experience at least they don't cultivate you, though some might try you're free to come and go as you please.

Could you elaborate on the first paragraph? How can you know any of the spiritual experiences are true?
Liiiiike.... Whilst you are in such a stance of deep prayer or spiritual renewal or simply dreaming or in sleep paralysis (or perhaps even lucid dream?), Jesus in some way appears in front of you and says something wise or simple (such as, "I love you"). How do you know that is not actually Satan posing as Christ (2 Cor 11:14)?
And yes, yes, Scripture says question all of that 1 John 4:1 but how do you bloody know in the end?

I've shared the type of personal experiences with you in the past. Jesus hasn't appeared to me, and if you weren't there, then anyone who claims such an experience that you're in your full right to reject such and more think them a liar or deluded. That person, if they truly had them, then fine it's good for them -- but such an experience profits no one else.

How do you know? Paul says to test the spirits to see that they're from God, hold onto the good. This would goes for messages received from teachers and out in the world, to I suppose, any spiritual manifestation. The thing is, many Christians think, just because something spiritual may be going on that such is verification and like. It doesn't work that way at all. I've seen much spirituality expressed, which isn't beneficial at all.

IM wrote:You have no idea how many times this friend of mine told me that this is it. This is the truth. "Forget the Catholic Church, the priests, the sacraments, the... I am 100% certain this is the truth. I've met God."

It depends in what way he "met God". If he means a physical revealing, then red alarms should rightfully be going off. Ask him why you should believe him? If offering proof and evidence wasn't beyond Jesus, than it is neither beyond your friend. Otherwise, he'll just have to content himself with your healthy skepticism. Let him be offended if that's how it takes it.

IM wrote:So, there, he truly believes that is the truth and says that the Early Church was manipulated by Satan into teaching the false doctrine of Trinity. Like, if you ask me, that is far stretched big time. If Satan deceived such earliest and greatest theologians, what makes you so sure he didn't trick you, as well? Where was that Holy Spirit to prevent that?

The strawman argument being made here is that Trinitarian doctrine is accepted by Christians because it's what the early church accepted. While it might be true in some instances, such is actually good reason for accepting such rather than rejecting. Yet, for our own sake, we should most definitely test our beliefs.

IM wrote:The only song I heard from Hillsong is "I surrender" (it's great) and we do not have (m)any charismatic churches. All of it is Catholic, except for like one Mormon church that I know of in my city.

Ehhh, plot twist. I've read a bit on them. It seems they do believe in Trinity after all. THIS IS IT! I AM SOLD! kktnxbb
But yeah, Christ was not always God and other heresies...

I wouldn't be sold on any one church, but by all means if you're being pulled towards it, check it out. Report back here your findings. I expect your guard will quite naturally be up, which in this instance, I think would be good.

PS. What denomination or name do they go by?

Kurieuo wrote:

AreEl wrote:IceCrapster,

Stop worrying about going to your mumbo-jumbo meeting! Just go to your seance and leave us alone! You're not even Christian, so what's the problem? Pray to the Dalaï-lama, dump a dozen oranges at the foot of a Buddha statue or dance around a totem pole for all I care.

Then come back and tell us how spiritual you are so we can have a good laugh.

AreEl, any member at this board, Christian or non-Christian, should be shown courtesy and respect. Your post here, with IceCrapster and general mockery and disdain shown I find personally quite inappropriate, especially coming from a Christian. Please read over the board guidelines for proper etiquette in dialogue, in particular:

• Mannerism
  Within discussions, please be civil and courteous and do not resort to personal attacks. If you feel inappropriately attacked, please bring such cases privately to a moderator who can then intervene as necessary. While these instructions are likely unnecessary for the vast majority of participants, here is some biblical advice to help serve as a guide for conversations:
  
  • Write in a manner that you would want others to write to you - "in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you" (<a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matt%207.12" data-reference="Matt 7.12" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">Matthew 7:12</a>).
  • "But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth." (<a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Col%203.8" data-reference="Col 3.8" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">Colossians 3:8</a>)
  • "Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned, as it were, with salt, so that you may know how you should respond to each person." (<a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Col%204.6" data-reference="Col 4.6" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">Colossians 4:6</a>)
  • "In all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us." (<a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Titus%202.7-8" data-reference="Titus 2.7-8" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">Titus 2:7-8</a>)

Such melodrama! Was the red print there to indicate anger? You made me laugh, Father Kurieuo. You take yourself much too seriously!

Anger? ANGER!? No, not at all. It's simply to highlight the warning.

IceMobster wrote:

jenna wrote: I would have to hear what they teach before i answer

....Jesus was not God up until the point he decided to take the role of our Saviour.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. NASB

The Pre-incarnate Jesus spoke these things as well...

Isa 41:4, Isa 44:6,8, Isa 48:12,13,

Then in Revelation 1:8,17,18 the same terms are used again revealing just whom He really is...

As for Gnosticism, suggest you read a scholarly article from CRI linked below:

Gnosticism and the Gnostic Jesus, CRI article

Have a nice day...
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