Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:

Audacity: So you're saying that because my point has you flummoxed?

Really - how so?

When you said, " asking questions isn't bad. But asking them in an accusing manner that caricatures aspects of God we cannot understand or have any certainties as to their purposes or ramifications "you're implying that you are at a loss to address these aspects: flummoxed.

Audacity: 1. FACT: According to the National Institute of Health, each year in the United States about 25,000 babies, or 68 babies every day, are born still.

2. APPEARANCE: God seems to be letting fetuses develop for 20-28 weeks before killing them off,

That's an assumption: Are these not human beings that he allowed to die, yet earlier than others? We are born into a world in which we are physically dying the moment we are born. Our very DNA guarantees death. Do you think of God killing off a sick old man who dies at 100? Course not - he succumbed to his mortality. How is the RESULT of an infant dying any different? And the ONLY way it can be any worse is if the afterlife for one in the presence of the Lord is worse than life here - which Scripture notes that the very moment one leaves the planet to be with the Lord will be the best moment of their lives - short or long it was. So, this supposed horror of babies dying a natural death per the results of that - no contest!

Seems you're missing my point. In that through his omniscience he knew he would be letting these fetuses die in still birth, it appears he waited 20 + weeks to do so.

Audacity: 3. OBSERVATION: Yet I don't hear anyone condemning him for it.

For allowing the natural course of biological or other circumstances? If nefarious or negligent, etc. - WHO is responsible? Man!

God is. He had the power to end the pregnancy at the very beginning, but chose to wait, which I don't view as very charitable, to say the least, to all involved.

Philip wrote:[url]Audacity: I say "god kills them" because unlike anyone else, doctors included, he has the power make sure they live, but chooses not to.[/url]

And YOU never addressed the reality of what such infant deaths would mean for a child instantly in Heaven. Your words: "He has the power to make sure they live." What the heck do you think would MORE make them live, and magnificently so, than being in the presence of the Lord???!!! Oh, so God is guilty of allowing them instant entrance into a beautiful, perfect place of joy with Him? Such a wonderful fate we should all seek!

And, Audacity, why are you not similarly obsessed over anyone that dies, as ALL die? Is it possible that's because you consider THIS life all that matters, as if its the ONLY life that exists? And, quite interesting, you speak of God in an accusing manner - almost as if He is REAL and you are angry at HIm.

Hey, if you think fetuses are better off dying just before birth rather than making it all the way, so be it. I don't.

1over137 wrote:

I say "god kills them" because unlike anyone else, doctors included, he has the power make sure they live, but chooses not to. It's guilt by omission

Audacity,
You are judging God here, aren't you?

Yup.

Earlier Byblos accused me of judging god, "those [me] that judge God by your hand-made standards." To which I said, "Don't know what "hand-made" standards are, but I fail to see what's wrong with expressing how he appears to me: "God seems to be . . . ." I know darn well good Christians have no trouble expressing how he appears to them. Would you take them to task for doing so? For judging god to be . . . .(insert complimentary words). . .? I hardly think so."

Audacity wrote:

1over137 wrote:

I say "god kills them" because unlike anyone else, doctors included, he has the power make sure they live, but chooses not to. It's guilt by omission

Audacity,
You are judging God here, aren't you?

Yup.

Earlier Byblos accused me of judging god, "those [me] that judge God by your hand-made standards." To which I said, "Don't know what "hand-made" standards are, but I fail to see what's wrong with expressing how he appears to me: "God seems to be . . . ." I know darn well good Christians have no trouble expressing how he appears to them. Would you take them to task for doing so? For judging god to be . . . .(insert complimentary words). . .? I hardly think so."

Evidently it's a well deserved accusation since you readily acknowledge that you are in fact judging God. The next logical question would be, by what standard do you presume to judge God? And what makes your standard any better than anyone else's?

While you're at it, why do you stop at unborn babies? How about wars and famine and natural disasters? You ought to be judging God for those as well. How about animal and plant death, bacteria, viruses. How about the evolution of atoms to molecules and molecules to complex forms, do they not have rights too? Why aren't you judging God for those?

Audacity, what you are basically asking boils down to a simple question, why did God create anything that changes at all. And the simple answer to that is because He can and He did.

I wonder if Audacity thinks abortion is wrong?

Audacity...
So you think God is wrong to allow these babies to die yet abortion isn't wrong?

I lost four babies before having my daughter, when I lost them I wasn't a Christian, I just felt God might be real. I don't know why God allows some babies to live and some to die, why He takes some early and some late but I do know that my daughter is all the more precious because I know how fragile life is.
Stillbirth and miscarraiges are natural things, abortion isn't. Having experienced the heartbreak of losing babies I couldn't condone abortion.

And...
Who is in a better position to know the wisdom of taking a life, God, or us?

Byblos wrote:

Audacity wrote:

1over137 wrote:

I say "god kills them" because unlike anyone else, doctors included, he has the power make sure they live, but chooses not to. It's guilt by omission

Audacity,
You are judging God here, aren't you?

Yup.

Earlier Byblos accused me of judging god, "those [me] that judge God by your hand-made standards." To which I said, "Don't know what "hand-made" standards are, but I fail to see what's wrong with expressing how he appears to me: "God seems to be . . . ." I know darn well good Christians have no trouble expressing how he appears to them. Would you take them to task for doing so? For judging god to be . . . .(insert complimentary words). . .? I hardly think so."

Evidently it's a well deserved accusation since you readily acknowledge that you are in fact judging God. The next logical question would be, by what standard do you presume to judge God?

The same standard everyone should try using when judging anything: Reason. Given the facts A, B, and C what can be deduced and said about them? Why does god permit stillborn babies rather than let the fetuses go full term, OR kill them right after conception?

And what makes your standard any better than anyone else's?

Don't know that it is. Want to give the issue a shot and come up with a more reasonable conclusion?

While you're at it, why do you stop at unborn babies?

Because unborn babies and what happens to them is the subject of the thread.

Philip wrote:I wonder if Audacity thinks abortion is wrong?

Why not ask him?

Storyteller wrote:Audacity...
So you think God is wrong to allow these babies to die yet abortion isn't wrong?

The issue isn't a matter of what I think, but why people have no trouble condemning abortion, but don't condemn god for letting a baby go almost full term and then letting it die when he could have prevented it.

And...
Who is in a better position to know the wisdom of taking a life, God, or us?

If letting over 568,000 mothers and fathers go through 5- 9 months of joyful expectancy each year and then pulling the rug out from under them is wise, then I'd be reconsidering god's wisdom if I was you. To me it comes across as outright cruelty, and not "Praise god for his infinite wisdom in creating over half a million stillborn babies this year."

Audacity wrote:

Storyteller wrote:Audacity...
So you think God is wrong to allow these babies to die yet abortion isn't wrong?

The issue isn't a matter of what I think, but why people have no trouble condemning abortion, but don't condemn god for letting a baby go almost full term and then letting it die when he could have prevented it.

Personally, I wrestled with this for a long, long time. For me, I guess it's because God is my creator, only He has the right to take a life.
My personal belief is that these little ones go straight to Him.
Of course, I don't know for sure but having been on both sides of the whole abortion thing and having lost four babies I still don't blame God for not preventing them from dying.
I do kinda know what you're driving at, why all the heartache of going almost full term only to lose your baby,but grief, death and loss is part of life.
For me, I trust God in all of His actions, abortion just goes against everything I believe in and I used to support a womans right to choose, now, life is just too precious.
For God to be God, He has to be right in all He does.

Just seen your edit...
I don't have the answers, not really.
I know the pain of losing babies..
You can use that argument with loads of things though, why do kids get cancer, why do some babies die hours or days after birth, why are there child murderers, rapists?

Do you agree with abortion?

This is such a personal thing for me, tis hard to explain how I feel and why, I just can't compare abortion, a decision made by us mere mortals to miscarraige and stillbirth, Gods decision. I can't express the comfort I get from knowing my babies are with Him, they always were. Safe, and loved. I don't why He took them when He did but one day, I'll find out why.
I found acceptance and peace over my loss through God, how can I not love Him?
I do NOT blame God for taking them, I trust in Him, that's why I thank Him for ALL of my babies.
Don't know how else to explain it.

A Beautiful Thread - Almost Was

Storyteller wrote:Just seen your edit...
I don't have the answers, not really.
I know the pain of losing babies..
You can use that argument with loads of things though, why do kids get cancer, why do some babies die hours or days after birth, why are there child murderers, rapists?

It all certainly does point to a less than caring god doesn't it. Something that's illustrated throughout the OT.

Do you agree with abortion?

I'm in favor of the option.

I see Audacity never addressed the ultimate meanings for a child who dies per his myopia of only framing it as "God let a child cruelly die, etc.

I wrote: And YOU never addressed the reality of what such infant deaths would mean for a child instantly in Heaven. Your words: "He has the power to make sure they live." What the heck do you think would MORE make them live, and magnificently so, than being in the presence of the Lord???!!! Paradise and peace FOREVER! Oh, so God is guilty of allowing them instant entrance into a beautiful, perfect place of joy with Him? Such a wonderful fate we should all seek!

Audacity: It all certainly does point to a less than caring god doesn't it.

So, Audacity, if a child will instantly reach a place of great peace, love and no tears or suffering, HOW is that uncaring. Don't dodge the ramification of what this would truly mean.

Story: Do you agree with abortion?

Audacity: I'm in favor of the option.

OK, let's apply Audacity's logic here: He asserts God allowing a baby or child to die is hideous and cruel (although he fails to address how that child instantly being in the Lord's presence would not be astoundingly beautiful (just as King David asserted of his dead child with Bathsheba). Yet, he is in FAVOR of the "option" of abortion??? So, he doesn't consider having a baby's brains and organs vacuumed out and ripped apart as "hideous and cruel" - I'm really missing something here. Either he is for a so-called "medical" procedure that (almost always totally and unnecessarily) causes a brutal and gruesome death to a healthy, developing child, or he is for others having the right to do this horror. And yet he asserts to have an issue with God allowing consequences that are inherent in our mortal, physical world, common to mankind and all life, as unloving when He immediately brings that child into eternal peace and joy. You'd think he'd find atrocious the cruelty and horror of abortion, if he sees an unborn life cut unnecessarily short (by man), as that is what he is accusing God of. Does he not see the hypocrisy in his views?