"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
You are also shouting, God do it your way. Lots of Christians want to think the majority of the world will go off into destruction.B. W. wrote:First off, Here is my response to you, Mazzy, and to those who read this regarding your view of universalism…Mazzy wrote:I don't go to a Catholic church, just so you know. Clearly, you have a strong dislike of the Pope and appear to be judging him. Naughty naughty!!
The work on the cross was to suffer death for ALL men and to save ALL mankind..... See.....
1) 1 Timothy 2:4 -- “[God our Savior] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”This scripture clearly spells out God’s will. Other Bible versions say that God wants, desires and wishes that all people be saved and come to the truth.
This verse completely supports universalism, no matter what word you use to describe God's will, so I don’t really have to explain it. It puts the burden of proof squarely on the shoulders of those who say Jesus will cast the defiant into hell or nothingness for all eternity. Many believe God wants to save all people, but for some reason is unwilling or unable to do it. I want to hear their reasons why the all-knowing, all-wise, all-loving, Almighty Creator of all mankind can’t get what He wants.
2) Jeremiah 32:27 -- “Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh, is there any thing too hard for Me?” I say, “No".
3) Romans 5:18,19 So then as through one transgression condemnation resulted for all people, even so through one righteous act justification of life resulted for all people. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were constituted sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous.
4) Matthew 18:11-14 -- “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, does he not leave the ninety and nine, and go into the mountains, and seek that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoices more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.” We must understand the value of every soul to God. We are all former “little ones,” and God does not want us to ultimately perish. Still, Jesus came to save what was lost -- all of us -- and He won’t fail.
5) 1 John 4:14 -- “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.” This verse gives us a title for Jesus and His mission: Savior of the world. Will He or won’t He fulfill His title and mission? How could you or I bet against Him succeeding? He is and will be the Savior of the world -- everyone…all people…yes, really, all people. Now that’s not only good news....... that’s great news!
I'd like to all or at least most of mankind come to salvation. Others think they are special, their faith is special, you have to go to church to be saved, etc etc.
Now you tell me what you think the work on the cross means......
1 Corinthians 11:19 "But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God's approval will be recognized!".
Jesus said in Mat 25:46... "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
1 John 5:11,12, "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." NKJV
Luke 16:26, "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us."
John 5:29 and 2 Thess 1:9 say what to us?
and add these verses as well: Rev 14:10-11, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:15, Rev 21:8
The bible does not support universalism, period.
2 Peter 3:16 mention scripture twisting and that is what universalism is based upon....
Again, such twisting exhibits how human beings exalt their reason and wisdom far above God's in such manner that cries out, God must perform to our liking and if not, He is not worthy of me...
Universal fails to uncover what defiles a person. It is out of the heart that defiles a person and thus the fruits of sin manifest.
Next, what is the Gospel message of the cross and resurrection?
The Gospel: 1'st reveals what defiles the human heart. Our reasoning and wisdom...for example exposed
Matthew 26:3,4,14,15,16,45-50 reveals the human hearts defilement: The religious leaders plotted to take Jesus by trickery, using the scriptures against him, in order to silence Jesus. Next, Judas sold out his love for money, and acceptance, as means of providing redemption and thus betrayed not only Jesus but also his friends.
How do we do the same today to others, ourselves, and even God? Who have you betrayed? What have you sold yourself out too. How have you twisted the Scriptures, or country’s laws, or public opinion, or moral reasoning to get what one wants for his or her redemption? None of us are innocent, no not one...
Matthew 26:56, they forsook Jesus - abandoned him... How do we do the same today to others, our selves, and even God? Who have you abandoned? Have you been abandoned if so how does that justify continuing abandoning? None of us are innocent, no not one...
Matt 26:57,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66 How do we do the same today to others, ourselves, and even God, put on show trial, put people on trial in our minds based on false evidence, what was the result? Ever sought revenge just because imagined they were wrong when they were not? What relationships have we slain? None of us are innocent, no not one...
Matt 26:67,68 Jesus was mocked, spat on with contempt, was beaten, demanded to perform for one’s entertainment. How do we do the same today in various ways to others, ourselves, and even God? None of us are innocent, no not one...
Matt 26:69-75, How many of us deny knowing someone or that we did not know or see something we did, pass the buck? How do we do the same today to others, ourselves, and even God? None of us are innocent, no not one...
Matt 27:1,2,11,12,13,14,15 Jesus was taken before the legal court, or public opinion, our even within our own minds to be silenced... How do we do the same today in various ways to others, ourselves, and even God? None of us are innocent, no not one...
Matt 27:16-26, Despite warnings from dreams and many ways God reveals the reality of himself, how often do we all in some way trade the ways of God for the bad to be free within us, unchecked, ungoverned? None of us are innocent, no not one...
Matt 27:27-31, Jesus was stripped, mocked, beaten, made to wear a crown of thrones – made to wear a mark, a label to be seen by all. How do we do the same today in various ways and means to others, ourselves, and even God? Whom have we marked, beaten with words, made fun of? None of us are innocent, no not one...
Ah, when I preach the gospel, this is called offensive!
Matt 27:32,33, How have we placed heavy burdens on others that they could not carry? None of us are innocent, no not one...
Matt 27:35-40 How do we do the same today in various ways to others, ourselves, and even God? Steal, divide, exploit, accuse? None of us are innocent, no not one...
Matt 27:41,42.43 How do we do the same today in various ways to others, ourselves, and even God? None of us are innocent, no not one...
So Mazzy and others, you want to claim universalism or public opinion need to shape and change the gospel message is true; that people are basically good and it does not matter what one believes as all make it to heaven? Good deeds earn all a right to heaven?
Jesus, upon the cross said this in Luke 23:34, "Father forgive them for the no not what they do..."
Ever asked the question who the "them" are Jesus referred too? Context goes on to show who the the "them" are in Luke 23:39,40,41,42,43. The them that awake to their need of the savior, Jesus Christ, God manifest in human form, to take away our defilement that is the root of all sins. Two thieves. One died cursing Christ. No mention of him in Paradise. One accepted who Jesus really is, came to his senses, all openly so too, and went to paradise with Jesus.
Universalism is not true, neither is that all religions have something in common, no matter how one tries to attempt to reason these things as so, it exposes something in the human heart...
Jer 17:9,10 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked (twisting and turning things); Who can know it? 10, I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings." NKJV
Jesus said in John 3:14-21 what?
God is without sin. The only way the Father could place sin's defilement upon Jesus is by the hands of men and women as the OT Law clearly points out on the transfer of sins by means of confession upon the sacrifice.
While hanging upon the cross Jesus paid our sin debt in full, in our place, and the wrath of God too for what we do to each other ourselves and to him. Ever saw that?
Look at the whole cross, not flavored parts to make yourself look good. None of us are that good and all of us sinned and fallen away from God. All need a savior...
However, only those that are awakened, ie drawn, to see their defiling ways and thus accepting his sacrifice will be saved. While other will reject it completely and thus:
Jesus said in Mat 25:46... "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
1 John 5:11,12, "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." NKJV
Luke 16:26, "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us."
John 5:29… and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
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2Th 1:8,9, …in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power…
God made the awakening simple, Faith in the grace of His ever kind deed…
Are you really saved by Jesus Christ or is your faith in your ideas in a god of your own making?
All that is required to be saved is faith in God’s grace – everything upon that cross – to expose what defiles humanity and creates sin that separates us from God.
A simple decision to pray a simple prayer all that is all that is needed to heal the human condition: "Heavenly Father forgive me, I a sinner who is defiled, clean me up, forgive me of this shame, make me born again of your Holy Spirit to change my heart, the rest of my days, I am yours, wholly yours. In Jesus’ name amen…"
From here one is raised and resurrected into the new life God alone gives through the Holy Spirit who indwells his people to transform them out of darkness into the light of God. Place your faith in these things, not human reason and wisdom. Let Him indwell and change your life for the better. Get to know who he is in deep living fellowship. Amen…
God came to give us a warm embrace and in return we nailed him to the cross as reveled by how we justify treating others, ourselves, and God. That is what we need forgiveness for. Will you come to Christ and accept what he did for you to save you from yourself?
God's great love was not shown because we are so good, nice, sweet, worthy of being saved. It was shown to draw folks out from and way from what defiles us so a few folks can return to the Lord and discover God's original plan for Human beings. He saved us because of who he is, not because of who we really are. His love was not shown to win public approval, but rather change our very lives away from defilement.
All the other world’s religions shout: God do it our way, look what we can do, our ways are superior to yours, you can't judge us as we are victims, I can earn it all by myself, our human wisdom and ways are superior and you must bow to them God because you love and you would be mean if you don't, and the worst: I do this good, this incantation, spell, good deeds and you will do this for me. All other world’s religions leave you in charge calling the shots.
Christianity says surrender to the Lord, give him your heart, for he died in our place to remove our transgressions and rebellion, he is trustworthy and real, and you can return to him and know him. Just call up him becoming born again... In other words, a simple choice, when before you had none. The others, offer no free choice…
The modern gospel no longer says this in any great degree because so much of it seeks to please public opinion with a Gospel of no power and no life. Trading it for a falling away instead...
By Bryan W Melvin
All Rights reserved
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Oh, I quite agree that there is a demonic presence that provides evidences to fool people into believing in false gods. But the gods themselves - nope, none there. I would say the same presence is behind things like supposed ghosts, alien encounters, voodoo, all manner of mystical things that if they can't mislead, will at the very least keep people's interest in things other than God. But I would also say that, as people so often believe what they want to - regardless of what good reasons might suggest otherwise, is that for a deception to work, on has to want to believe it. With false gods, this would be to believe in its existence without sufficient reasons to do so. Course, some would think ANY kind of mystical thing is proof that the god or think is cloaked in truth - as opposed to evil.Paul: Personally, I do think these "other gods" do exist, these false gods that have "revealed" to some these false "gospels". The "angel" that gave Mohammad his vision or the angel that gave Joseph smith his vision, were not angels of Our Lord, of God, but false "gods" or angles that work for these false gods.
I am not talking about salvation; actually, I mean basically the opposite. If someone finds Christian teachings objectionable, perhaps the better apologetic is simply showing the fruit of those beliefs.B. W. wrote:
What common ground?
Jesus himself these things:
Actually, no they can't. Which is why JW's have their own Bible version that they've changed words within that no non-JW Biblical scholar sees justification for. Mormons too have their own book, right? And SDAs, who are a more legitimate so-far-as Christian orthodoxy is concerned, do adhere to a more law-based system of theology through which they interpret Scripture.Mazzy wrote:like to point out is that a Christian can pull scriptures to suit their view, be it liberal or exclusive or anything in between. JW's, Mormons, SDAs, the Pope etc can all pull scriptures to support their view and reason away other scriptures.
I studied with the JWs for a while. I like them. Their bible only has a few phrases that are different to others in meaning For example "Jesus was a god" is the only one I can think of. There are plenty of scriptures that identify Jesus as a separate person. Greek doesn't have a definite article (a, the).. something like that.......That's a reasoning they use. The rest of their doctrine is based on scripture that says blood is sacred, should be spilled on the ground and belongs to God so taking it in a transfusion is the same as drinking it.Kurieuo wrote:Actually, no they can't. Which is why JW's have their own Bible version that they've changed words within that no non-JW Biblical scholar sees justification for. Mormons too have their own book, right? And SDAs, who are a more legitimate so-far-as Christian orthodoxy is concerned, do adhere to a more law-based system of theology through which they interpret Scripture.Mazzy wrote:like to point out is that a Christian can pull scriptures to suit their view, be it liberal or exclusive or anything in between. JW's, Mormons, SDAs, the Pope etc can all pull scriptures to support their view and reason away other scriptures.
I disagree. The above is what all faiths say about others. Even with context one has to reason away the meaning of other scriptures. I believe that is why there are so many varieties of Christians.Sure, words can be interpreted a certain way, especially when one zooms in on one verse devoid of the surrounding context. YECs also have their own scientific explanations, but it doesn't mean when proper methods are applied that other scientific explanations aren't more rationally justifiable making belief in other views more warranted. Similarly, some interpretations of Scripture just aren't rationally justifiable and as warranted as others. Such as, universal salvation which is nowhere endorsed. What is more or less endorsed however, is that Christ died for all sin, even while we were sinners. I'm sure you know the verse. Yet then, many deny they have sinned at all or don't care, so reject God's atoning act and the forgiveness on offer in Christ that allows us to enter into God's presence.
I'm sure you most certainly don't believe truth is all relative and subjective. So why let such a philosophy guide your theology? Fact is, the closest authoritative sources we have report Christ as saying, "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." And then again elsewhere, "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
The Church has already lost credibility. It is losing ground especially in the U.S. and the EU. The average unbeliever views Christianity as "just another religion" these days because they (churches) all claim to have the truth yet they can't agree on anything. Then they demonize and even condemn one another over doctrinal disagreements. You have no idea how many people have said to me, "I'd like to go to church, but how do you know which church is right?"thatkidakayoungguy wrote:It makes us look like we don't know what we're talking about. If we can't get our basics right within the Church then we're going to lose credibility.
I've seen this firsthand on Yahoo Answers. Good news is Christianity's rapidly growing in third world countries where they need the hope. Africa and Asia has the most growth, with Latin America having I think revivals along with East Europe/Russia.goingsouth wrote:The Church has already lost credibility. It is losing ground especially in the U.S. and the EU. The average unbeliever views Christianity as "just another religion" these days because they (churches) all claim to have the truth yet they can't agree on anything. Then they demonize and even condemn one another over doctrinal disagreements. You have no idea how many people have said to me, "I'd like to go to church, but how do you know which church is right?"thatkidakayoungguy wrote:It makes us look like we don't know what we're talking about. If we can't get our basics right within the Church then we're going to lose credibility.
For some reason Christians love to talk bad about one another, doing nothing for the cause of Jesus Christ.
They do so but I think they escape legalism by saying if you love God then naturally you would do these things. I have SDA relatives and SDA pamphlets and SDA books that seem to teach this.K* wrote: And SDAs, who are a more legitimate so-far-as Christian orthodoxy is concerned, do adhere to a more law-based system of theology through which they interpret Scripture.
That means most people are doomed, since no one is perfect. Hence why we need God's grace. I think many non-Christian will be judged harshly but not all, ones under the age of accountability I think will be saved since they can't comprehend this stuff, and there might be some in the past like Neanderthals who believed God but weren't with the old patriarchs to learn. Anyone who truly wants to seek God will find Him, but most won't as so God will reach to them, including in pagan nations before the Christian era. As we know most rejected God and so we have to spread the Gospel or else they're doomed. This reasoning is right, right guys?Mazzy wrote: I don't think the truth is subjective.
I think, those under the Law will be judged by the law, Christians will be judged by Jesus, non believers will be judged by God and their own conscience. I think non Christians will be judged harshly, but I do not believe a good hearted non Christian is doomed.
Maybe you are right. If so, I hope I am there in heaven with you so you can tell me you told me so.
Absolutely, no one is perfect. However I argue that an atheists sin is not worse than a Christians sin. We will all be judged accordingly. I feel the scriptures say that Christians that have faith in Jesus and love their neighbor will have the advantage of being covered by Jesus blood.thatkidakayoungguy wrote:They do so but I think they escape legalism by saying if you love God then naturally you would do these things. I have SDA relatives and SDA pamphlets and SDA books that seem to teach this.K* wrote: And SDAs, who are a more legitimate so-far-as Christian orthodoxy is concerned, do adhere to a more law-based system of theology through which they interpret Scripture.
*sorry Mazzy, just a mistake happenedThat means most people are doomed, since no one is perfect. Hence why we need God's grace. I think many non-Christian will be judged harshly but not all, ones under the age of accountability I think will be saved since they can't comprehend this stuff, and there might be some in the past like Neanderthals who believed God but weren't with the old patriarchs to learn. Anyone who truly wants to seek God will find Him, but most won't as so God will reach to them, including in pagan nations before the Christian era. As we know most rejected God and so we have to spread the Gospel or else they're doomed. This reasoning is right, right guys?Mazzy wrote: I don't think the truth is subjective.
I think, those under the Law will be judged by the law, Christians will be judged by Jesus, non believers will be judged by God and their own conscience. I think non Christians will be judged harshly, but I do not believe a good hearted non Christian is doomed.
Maybe you are right. If so, I hope I am there in heaven with you so you can tell me you told me so.
I agree.Mazzy wrote: Absolutely, no one is perfect. However I argue that an atheists sin is not worse than a Christians sin. We will all be judged accordingly. I feel the scriptures say that Christians that have faith in Jesus and love their neighbor will have the advantage of being covered by Jesus blood.
Perhaps you can expose how each of those verses you quoted prove Universal Salvation.Mazzy wrote:I disagree. The above is what all faiths say about others. Even with context one has to reason away the meaning of other scriptures. I believe that is why there are so many varieties of Christians.Sure, words can be interpreted a certain way, especially when one zooms in on one verse devoid of the surrounding context. YECs also have their own scientific explanations, but it doesn't mean when proper methods are applied that other scientific explanations aren't more rationally justifiable making belief in other views more warranted. Similarly, some interpretations of Scripture just aren't rationally justifiable and as warranted as others. Such as, universal salvation which is nowhere endorsed. What is more or less endorsed however, is that Christ died for all sin, even while we were sinners. I'm sure you know the verse. Yet then, many deny they have sinned at all or don't care, so reject God's atoning act and the forgiveness on offer in Christ that allows us to enter into God's presence.
Can you point out how these scriptures that indicate all people will be saved are being quoted out of context.
1 Timothy 2:4 -- “[God our Savior] will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
John 5:22-23 -- “For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That ALL men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which has sent Him.”
1 John 4:14 -- “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.”
Philippians 2:9-11"Therefore God has highly exalted him [Christ] and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
"All" means everyone on this planet, so aliens are excluded...Kurieuo wrote:Perhaps you can expose how each of those verses you quoted prove Universal Salvation.Mazzy wrote:I disagree. The above is what all faiths say about others. Even with context one has to reason away the meaning of other scriptures. I believe that is why there are so many varieties of Christians.Sure, words can be interpreted a certain way, especially when one zooms in on one verse devoid of the surrounding context. YECs also have their own scientific explanations, but it doesn't mean when proper methods are applied that other scientific explanations aren't more rationally justifiable making belief in other views more warranted. Similarly, some interpretations of Scripture just aren't rationally justifiable and as warranted as others. Such as, universal salvation which is nowhere endorsed. What is more or less endorsed however, is that Christ died for all sin, even while we were sinners. I'm sure you know the verse. Yet then, many deny they have sinned at all or don't care, so reject God's atoning act and the forgiveness on offer in Christ that allows us to enter into God's presence.
Can you point out how these scriptures that indicate all people will be saved are being quoted out of context.
1 Timothy 2:4 -- “[God our Savior] will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
John 5:22-23 -- “For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That ALL men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which has sent Him.”
1 John 4:14 -- “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.”
Philippians 2:9-11"Therefore God has highly exalted him [Christ] and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
If Jesus meant "some" I am sure He would have said so. If "every" knee shall bow and "every" tongue confess Jesus is Lord, then somehow, someway, that must be the case. Jesus came to save the world. If He is only saving Christians, and even more concerning, if He is only saving practicing Christians, then Jesus will have failed miserably. Only a tiny minority of mankind are Christians.