Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2017 5:52 pm Over the years, I've seen quite a few atheist and agnostics on the forum relentlessly argue their reasons why they don't believe in God, or don't believe in an afterlife. Seems they doth protest too much! I really don't get why anyone who believes there is no God truly cares beyond a certain, rather casual point. Those I've seen here typically don't seem terribly upset by Christianity or see Christians as a big threat, nor tend to view Christians as religious simpletons, etc. But I'm surprised at their passion for arguing, over very long periods, over their belief that there is no God. Why does that seem to matter so much to them? Why really care what Believers think?

How about you (discussions.godandscience.org) presenting a platform for these discussions. You instigate the possibility for these kind of argueing and are surprised that it actually works?
For every atheist, or agnost, there is at least one theist here that is as passionate over maybe a much longer period. Aren't you surprised by that.
And isn't this platform intended for these dicussions? We learn from it, change our point of views, or stick in what one believes. Otherwise we would do circular reasoning. We need other viewpoints, other ways of thinking to see clear the history behind us and the path in front of us.

Philip wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2017 5:52 pm Over the years, I've seen quite a few atheist and agnostics on the forum relentlessly argue their reasons why they don't believe in God, or don't believe in an afterlife. Seems they doth protest too much! I really don't get why anyone who believes there is no God truly cares beyond a certain, rather casual point. Those I've seen here typically don't seem terribly upset by Christianity or see Christians as a big threat, nor tend to view Christians as religious simpletons, etc. But I'm surprised at their passion for arguing, over very long periods, over their belief that there is no God. Why does that seem to matter so much to them? Why really care what Believers think?

1. They may have come from Christian backgrounds themselves

2. If they are wrong, they know there's a hell. Wouldn't you try to have a solid argument why hell doesn't exist, if you didn't believe?

3. They think Christians are intellectually lazy and therefore they get pleasure from trying to de-convert them or they feel better arguing against the "lesser" beleif.

Mind you, these are just my personal guesses.

JustHuman: How about you (discussions.godandscience.org) presenting a platform for these discussions. You instigate the possibility for these kind of argueing and are surprised that it actually works?

JH, if you're asking why Christians are passionate about the issue vs. atheists and agnostics, it's like comparing those who think the issue is vitally important to a person's situations now and eternal well-being later vs. those who think whatever one believes concerning God is really irrelevant speculation or unmerited speculation. Christians are highly concerned about people and our world. We see God-given insights and following His moral teachings as critical to both people and society. And we're very passionate about people not otherwise heading to a terrible afterlife. But if atheists / agnostics are correct, it doesn't matter if I believe in the Lord or the toothfairy, as they are both only imaginary.

JH: And isn't this platform intended for these dicussions? We learn from it, change our point of views, or stick in what one believes.

Yes, and this is a good thing. But the motivation to continue arguing beyond a point is baffling. Why would YOU care so much about the beliefs of Christians by continuing to argue against them? Cause if YOU are right, it doesn't really matter what we believe. But if WE are...

The other think that is very curious is the level of hate, anger and obsession we relentlessly see aimed at Christians by atheists and agnostics - as if they find our beliefs threatening or harmful. Oh, they can drum up unScriptural beliefs and strawman arguments to argue against, but to assertion Christ-based teachings are harmful or dangerous - why the widespread mindset of such anger?

Philip wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:25 am

JustHuman: How about you (discussions.godandscience.org) presenting a platform for these discussions. You instigate the possibility for these kind of argueing and are surprised that it actually works?

JH, if you're asking why Christians are passionate about the issue vs. atheists and agnostics, it's like comparing those who think the issue is vitally important to a person's situations now and eternal well-being later vs. those who think whatever one believes concerning God is really irrelevant speculation or unmerited speculation. Christians are highly concerned about people and our world. We see God-given insights and following His moral teachings as critical to both people and society. And we're very passionate about people not otherwise heading to a terrible afterlife. But if atheists / agnostics are correct, it doesn't matter if I believe in the Lord or the toothfairy, as they are both only imaginary.

JH: And isn't this platform intended for these dicussions? We learn from it, change our point of views, or stick in what one believes.

Yes, and this is a good thing. But the motivation to continue arguing beyond a point is baffling. Why would YOU care so much about the beliefs of Christians by continuing to argue against them? Cause if YOU are right, it doesn't really matter what we believe. But if WE are...

The other think that is very curious is the level of hate, anger and obsession we relentlessly see aimed at Christians by atheists and agnostics - as if they find our beliefs threatening or harmful. Oh, they can drum up unScriptural beliefs and strawman arguments to argue against, but to assertion Christ-based teachings are harmful or dangerous - why the widespread mindset of such anger?

Philip wrote:JH, if you're asking why Christians are passionate about the issue vs. atheists and agnostics, it's like comparing those who think the issue is vitally important to a person's situations now and eternal well-being later vs. those who think whatever one believes concerning God is really irrelevant speculation or unmerited speculation. Christians are highly concerned about people and our world. We see God-given insights and following His moral teachings as critical to both people and society. And we're very passionate about people not otherwise heading to a terrible afterlife. But if atheists / agnostics are correct, it doesn't matter if I believe in the Lord or the toothfairy, as they are both only imaginary.

It is a mistake to think that atheists/agnosts could not be as caring and passionate about many of the same things you mention, just because they are atheists. Is there a fundamental difference between that "caring for" in an atheistic world or in a theistic world? I don't think so. The perception of that caring is for both exactly the same, but it is "the end" that is different. Theists have an ultimate goal, while atheists only have their momentary goal.

Being an atheist/agnost myself I can understand the benefits of the existence of God, the guidance it gives in life, to be cared for, the safety of Him being there, the warm and comfortable presence of someone that watches over us, the heaven that awaits when we die, etc.
It feels "save", but to me also "temptingly ignorant".

Philip wrote:Yes, and this is a good thing. But the motivation to continue arguing beyond a point is baffling. Why would YOU care so much about the beliefs of Christians by continuing to argue against them? Cause if YOU are right, it doesn't really matter what we believe. But if WE are...

Well… the motivation is understanding, or better, the lack of understanding. It is not that I (as I can only speak for myself) want to "argue beyond a point", it is the non-understanding that continues the arguing. And that goes both ways. As I try to grasp what drives the theists, I expect that theists try to grasp what drives atheists. As long as there is an inballance between those two the arguing (or discussions) can continue. If either side is not willing (or unable) to delve into the other side, further arguing is indeed pointless.
If atheists are right, it indeed doesn't matter what we believe, but hey, that is not the end of the world!

Philip wrote:The other think that is very curious is the level of hate, anger and obsession we relentlessly see aimed at Christians by atheists and agnostics - as if they find our beliefs threatening or harmful. Oh, they can drum up unScriptural beliefs and strawman arguments to argue against, but to assertion Christ-based teachings are harmful or dangerous - why the widespread mindset of such anger?

Is this a personal experience? It is not something I see or experience around me.

JH: It is a mistake to think that atheists/agnostics could not be as caring and passionate about many of the same things you mention, just because they are atheists.

A person who doesn't believe God doesn't even exist is a person who ultimately thinks the belief is largely irrelevant - unless there are negative consequences to the atheist for the belief of others. But no Christian following the Bible would show hostility towards an unbeliever, or hate of despise them. If fact, we're commanded to love all people as we would ourselves. And yet we constantly see unbelievers who are angry over the beliefs of Christians. Now, I fully understand the anger at some so-called Christians - as these are people who do not follow Christ teachings in how they treat unbelievers. Again, why the anger, why would they care, unless it impacted them in a negative way? I didn't say atheists or agnostics can't be nice people or compassionate - they often are. But there's also a large percentage of them that are very angry and hate Christians and their beliefs. It's obvious - go on any Christian-themed discussion forum, and you'll see relentless venom from unbelievers.

JH: Being an atheist/agnost myself I can understand the benefits of the existence of God, the guidance it gives in life, to be cared for, the safety of Him being there, the warm and comfortable presence of someone that watches over us, the heaven that awaits when we die, etc. It feels "save", but to me also "temptingly ignorant".

How is it temptingly ignorant?

Philip wrote: Yes, and this is a good thing. But the motivation to continue arguing beyond a point is baffling. Why would YOU care so much about the beliefs of Christians by continuing to argue against them? Cause if YOU are right, it doesn't really matter what we believe. But if WE are...

JH: Well… the motivation is understanding, or better, the lack of understanding. It is not that I (as I can only speak for myself) want to "argue beyond a point", it is the non-understanding that continues the arguing. And that goes both ways. As I try to grasp what drives the theists, I expect that theists try to grasp what drives atheists. As long as there is an inballance between those two the arguing (or discussions) can continue. If either side is not willing (or unable) to delve into the other side, further arguing is indeed pointless.

One would think further arguing is - but this site has long experienced atheists (mostly) and agnostics consumed with disproving Christian and theistic beliefs. We see it all the time!

Philip: The other think that is very curious is the level of hate, anger and obsession we relentlessly see aimed at Christians by atheists and agnostics - as if they find our beliefs threatening or harmful. Oh, they can drum up unScriptural beliefs and strawman arguments to argue against, but to assertion Christ-based teachings are harmful or dangerous - why the widespread mindset of such anger?

JH: Is this a personal experience? It is not something I see or experience around me.

Perhaps you don't experience this because you're not a Christian. I've been debating these issues for 30 years - there are tons of strawman arguments leveled, often with sarcasm and anger over our belief in the "Sky Fairy." It's very common and widespread!

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:00 pm A person who doesn't believe God doesn't even exist is a person who ultimately thinks the belief is largely irrelevant - unless there are negative consequences to the atheist for the belief of others. But no Christian following the Bible would show hostility towards an unbeliever, or hate of despise them. If fact, we're commanded to love all people as we would ourselves. And yet we constantly see unbelievers who are angry over the beliefs of Christians. Now, I fully understand the anger at some so-called Christians - as these are people who do not follow Christ teachings in how they treat unbelievers.

Well evidently there are a lot of Christians who don’t always follow Christ’s teachings in how to treat unbelievers. If you don’t see this, perhaps its because you are not an Atheist.

Kenny wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:52 pm

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:00 pm A person who doesn't believe God doesn't even exist is a person who ultimately thinks the belief is largely irrelevant - unless there are negative consequences to the atheist for the belief of others. But no Christian following the Bible would show hostility towards an unbeliever, or hate of despise them. If fact, we're commanded to love all people as we would ourselves. And yet we constantly see unbelievers who are angry over the beliefs of Christians. Now, I fully understand the anger at some so-called Christians - as these are people who do not follow Christ teachings in how they treat unbelievers.

Well evidently there are a lot of Christians who don’t always follow Christ’s teachings in how to treat unbelievers. If you don’t see this, perhaps its because you are not an Atheist.

Yes, Christians that show hate and intolerance of others ( rather than of the ACTIONS of others) are showing that THEY need more Christ in their life.

Ken: Well evidently there are a lot of Christians who don’t always follow Christ’s teachings in how to treat unbelievers. If you don’t see this, perhaps its because you are not an Atheist.

Ken, did you not read what I acknowledged directly above your comment about that reality. Most of those people not obeying Christ teachings on how to treat people aren't Christians, no matter that they might self-identify as such. Many are merely political / cultural, so-called "Christians."

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:57 am

Ken: Well evidently there are a lot of Christians who don’t always follow Christ’s teachings in how to treat unbelievers. If you don’t see this, perhaps its because you are not an Atheist.

Ken, did you not read what I acknowledged directly above your comment about that reality. Most of those people not obeying Christ teachings on how to treat people aren't Christians, no matter that they might self-identify as such. Many are merely political / cultural, so-called "Christians."

You asked why are some Atheists hostile towards Christians. I'm suggesting perhaps it is the "so called" Christians that you mentioned, that they are hostile rather than the real Christians who are loving.

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:57 am

Ken: Well evidently there are a lot of Christians who don’t always follow Christ’s teachings in how to treat unbelievers. If you don’t see this, perhaps its because you are not an Atheist.

Ken, did you not read what I acknowledged directly above your comment about that reality. Most of those people not obeying Christ teachings on how to treat people aren't Christians, no matter that they might self-identify as such. Many are merely political / cultural, so-called "Christians."

In that case you claim to be a true Christian and all else 'false' Christians. That is a potential very dangerous statement.

Justhuman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:19 am

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:57 am

Ken: Well evidently there are a lot of Christians who don’t always follow Christ’s teachings in how to treat unbelievers. If you don’t see this, perhaps its because you are not an Atheist.

Ken, did you not read what I acknowledged directly above your comment about that reality. Most of those people not obeying Christ teachings on how to treat people aren't Christians, no matter that they might self-identify as such. Many are merely political / cultural, so-called "Christians."

In that case you claim to be a true Christian and all else 'false' Christians. That is a potential very dangerous statement.

How is it dangerous? Lots of people claim to be all sorts of things, doesn't make it so.

JH, those of us who have been Christians for a long time - and for me, that's over 50 years - we can tell you with confidence that a huge number of people who self-identify as Christians are not. How can we tell? We can tell by the way they have long lived and acted, and for many of them we know personally, we know they've almost certainly never submitted themself to Christ in a desire to follow him, or try to follow his instructions. Such people only THINK they are saved. Which is why so many of them (not all) see no problem with hating or treating self-identifying atheists, agnostics, and those of non-Christian faiths terribly. And I'm not saying that ALL atheists and agnostics are very hateful or antagonistic toward Christians - yet a huge percentage of them are like this.

In 1 John 4 we read that any who claim to love God and then hate their "brother", that they're liars and do not love God. (1 John 4:20-21)

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:56 am

Justhuman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:19 am

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:57 am

Ken: Well evidently there are a lot of Christians who don’t always follow Christ’s teachings in how to treat unbelievers. If you don’t see this, perhaps its because you are not an Atheist.

Ken, did you not read what I acknowledged directly above your comment about that reality. Most of those people not obeying Christ teachings on how to treat people aren't Christians, no matter that they might self-identify as such. Many are merely political / cultural, so-called "Christians."

In that case you claim to be a true Christian and all else 'false' Christians. That is a potential very dangerous statement.

How is it dangerous? Lots of people claim to be all sorts of things, doesn't make it so.

"I am the only true believer, everyone else is 'fake' ".
You 'damn' a lot of people with that. Now I don't think that is your purpose, but that kind of statements differentiates between true and false.
Different Christians claim they are the true Christians. So, which one is the right one? There can be only one.
Since you mentioned the hatred from some atheists towards Christians, maybe your claim is at some basis of that. "God exists, and I am right. Period." There is no room for 'alternatives'.
It is like the the atheist claims "I am right, and you (as a theist) are wrong. Period."
While the agnost claims "I probably am right, and you possibly might be wrong."

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:00 pm

JH: Being an atheist/agnost myself I can understand the benefits of the existence of God, the guidance it gives in life, to be cared for, the safety of Him being there, the warm and comfortable presence of someone that watches over us, the heaven that awaits when we die, etc. It feels "save", but to me also "temptingly ignorant".

How is it temptingly ignorant?

It is tempting to hand yourself over into the strong and save arms of a loving God (it takes away burdens, pains and sorrows, life is not 'futile' and your future is 'saved'), but it is ignorant to then ignore/dismiss the (cold) reality around us.