Evidence for God from Science

IceMobster wrote:

neo-x wrote:No one is looking at the main reason that it is the west's endless meddling in the middle east for decades that gave birth to OBL and others etc. The problem is not refugees, it's the way the west meddle with their elections, install corrupt leaders, drone strikes killing civilians and lots of other things. It's simply a long-term consequence of what has been happening for so long.

To simply say it's radical Islam is only seeing the half picture, why are they being radicalized at all? And why wasn't this happening earlier? Sometimes it's good to review one's own actions as well and maybe learn from those. Not saying people don't hate the west, but you gotta ask why.

You can't expect to invade someone's house and carry your will against them when and where and then not expect retaliation of any kind. That's unrealistic.

Look, dude. My country (nor any country in Eastern Europe) meddled with Middle East/Africa/whatever yet we are facing the consequences. The reality is that USA is the major factor that destabilizes mentioned areas and none of us (not even our cucked masochistic insane governments) can impact the decision of such a major world power or impact the cause (the root) of radicalized Islam and invading/annihilating someone's house.

So, we are faced with the consequences despite not being the cause of them....

Aaaand there will be blood. Lots of it in the coming years.

I agree, but I think since a lot of countries stand as allies they become collateral damage. Even my country has suffered 65000+ casualties in the last 9 years from terrorism but we can't make USA anything really.

neo-x wrote:No one is looking at the main reason that it is the west's endless meddling in the middle east for decades that gave birth to OBL and others etc. The problem is not refugees, it's the way the west meddle with their elections, install corrupt leaders, drone strikes killing civilians and lots of other things. It's simply a long-term consequence of what has been happening for so long.

To simply say it's radical Islam is only seeing the half picture, why are they being radicalized at all? And why wasn't this happening earlier? Sometimes it's good to review one's own actions as well and maybe learn from those. Not saying people don't hate the west, but you gotta ask why.

You can't expect to invade someone's house and carry your will against them when and where and then not expect retaliation of any kind. That's unrealistic.

One can NOT deny that western meddling in the ME is a factor, it has been since, easily, the 20th century.
The issue is that the Islamic push to expand has never stopped, though it was slowed down for a few centuries,
Islams issues with the west are far older than the last couple of centuries, we are talking back to 700 AD.
Western interference has just given them a "justifiable reason" to do what they have been doing for centuries and that is kill and murder non-Muslims with the final goal being total conversion of the west to Islam and in case you are thinking that this is just MY opinion, this view is what Muslim radicals have been SAYING for centuries and are still saying NOW, OPENLY.

And please don't bring in the moderates because I ask you this:
Where were the moderates when those people died at the concert? during the 9/11? during the bombings and killing going on almost weekly?
If they are NOT a factor then they are NOT a factor.
When was the last time you say the OUTRAGE and the PROTESTING from moderate Muslims against ISIS or a terrorist attack?
Remember the old saying that if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem?
Well, moderate Islam IS the problem because they do NOT do anything about radical Islam.

People have problems with actions of governments - I get that. I do as well. Not just other countries' governments and actions, but many of our own. The average Joe civilian has zero control over a government with so many pockets of power and secret activities that we can't even properly investigate goings on - the bureaucracy is enormous. But the question for the average person is, are they willing commit immoral acts deliberately targeting the citizens of other countries because they hate their victims' government's past actions (yes, and present ones)? If I could sneak into ISIS controlled city marketplaces of civilians, women and children - would I be willing to blow them to bits with the butchery of a bomb strapped to my body? Would I immigrate to places I hate, enjoy their public benefits, all that - and then butcher civilians in some atrocity? And think GOD wants me to do this? There is just no rationalizing people with this mentality. Can the West change their past actions? Absolutely not! Many of the decision makers of past government decisions are long dead. When the Islamist use the word "Crusaders," it speaks of needed revenge for centuries of whatever perceived (accurately or however inaccurately) actions of the distant past. People buying into this crap are despised across much of the Muslim world - it's not just westerners who are appalled. These people buying into Islamist-perpetuated violence are sick and infected with a satanic-driven mentality - don't try to rationalize it, or act as if the West only did this or that, or changed in whatever way, that this would stop. It would NOT! These actions are pure evil!

As for drone actions, etc. - what are we supposed to do? These are violent people planning on murder and mayhem - it's not a theoretical. They hide right amongst civilians. This calls for some very untidy and troubling actions that can indeed kill civilians - not intentionally or by desire. But how do you engage the enemy effectively if they are amongst civilian populations? You have to go after them where they are. If the West used the serious weapons at their disposal, they could wipe certain problems off the map - but great restraint has been used (too much so). If the Islamists had such weapons ...

In all of this, overtures for peace are laughed at. If these factions would simply try to engage in a peaceful, constructive dialogue of sincere intent, it would make all the difference. But with every bombing and atrocity, they only harden Western hearts and resolve to rid the planet of them. And that is also the sentiment of many Muslims. Note also, who do they all hate the most? The JEWS! Much of the Muslim world would like to see Israel completely destroyed. Wow! Genocide is popular? Did God promise Abraham ties to that land forever, or what? Does Israel have the right to exist? No, Israel hasn't been perfect - but neither has any nation. But it's no accident that these people hate the Jews. That's the common link to many monsters of history, Hitler being the most infamous of them. And when you look at maniacs like the ISIS guys, they've butchered more Muslims than Westerners - and we're supposed to see them as rationally reacting to Western provocations? Please!

Neo,

Instead of pointing the finger at the west, why not point the finger at the nations that harbor terrorists? When these cowards hide behind women and children, there really is no better way to insure the least amount of casualties to our troops, and to civilians, than drones.

Go grab your friends and protest against your governments who not only provide a safe haven for these thugs, but in some cases, fund them.

The "do not invade, stay out" mentality that you are suggesting, doesn't work. Just look at Israel as THE example, and you'll see how that goes.

If radical Muslims are not part of Islam as moderate Muslims suggest, then where's the outcry from moderate Muslims?

Where is the outcry from Muslim nations?

It's pretty convenient to blame the west, when that's the only safe thing to do, isn't it?

There's been plenty of outcry from moderate Muslims and from Muslim nation's, although you won't see it reported by conservative pundits like Breitbart and FOX News.

Regarding"pointing the finger" I get your point, but blaming everything on Muslims makes no sense, either. Terrorism is evil and needs to be stopped, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a response to American and Western European foreign policy. The tendency on the part of conservative pundits to ignore the big picture isn't helpful to anyone.

that doesn't change the fact that it's a response to American and Western European foreign policy.

WHAT aspects of PRESENT American and Western policies are hurting Islamic countries?

It's not that simple, Phil. A lot of things that were set in motion by previous administrations are still issues, and will likely continue to be, so current policy is only one of many factors. Besides that, asking which policies are hurting Islamic countries implies that they all have the same interests. They don't.

Long story short, the Middle East is a quagmire and we jumped in with both feet a long time ago. Our poor relations with Iran go all the way back to Operation Ajax and the Eisenhower Administration. Our overall unpopularity in the region goes back to our decision to recognize Israel as a nation, and our continued unpopularity is tied to our continuous support of Israeli interests, at the expense of their neighbors, ever since. Our tendency to support Muslim authoritarian regimes at the expense of their citizens is another issue. When push comes to shove we'll almost always ignore democratic principles and back a strongman if it means promoting regional stability (and Western interests). The one time I can think of when we didn't do that is the second Iraq War, when we took down Saddam Hussein. That was a catastrophe and the repercussions are still being felt. And so on and so forth.

As far as what we need to do about it, Hell if I know. What I do know, though, is that solving a problem is a lot harder if you can't bring yourself to admit what caused it in the first place.

Blame the victims, how classy

Just look at Iran as an example. The Islamic revolution came exactly because CIA installed a corrupt dictator who'd work for American interests. The Shah was almost a modern V. Putin and that led to a regime change that has still deep roots in the Iranian society, military and culture.

RickD wrote:Neo,

Instead of pointing the finger at the west, why not point the finger at the nations that harbor terrorists? When these cowards hide behind women and children, there really is no better way to insure the least amount of casualties to our troops, and to civilians, than drones.

Go grab your friends and protest against your governments who not only provide a safe haven for these thugs, but in some cases, fund them.

The "do not invade, stay out" mentality that you are suggesting, doesn't work. Just look at Israel as THE example, and you'll see how that goes.

If radical Muslims are not part of Islam as moderate Muslims suggest, then where's the outcry from moderate Muslims?

Where is the outcry from Muslim nations?

It's pretty convenient to blame the west, when that's the only safe thing to do, isn't it?

You mean the terrorists that were trained and funded via CIA and let loose on Russian forces? The blued eyed OBL who had dinners at white house?

You averting your eyes from the central truth that America funded and organized terrorist factions when it suited them and when after the fall of USSR their services were no longer needed they let them go rouge. Saddam and Qadaffi were terrible leaders but they kept vicious people like ISIS in check and in control. Eliminating these leaders left a power vaccum which ISIS filled.

I am pointing the finger at West because it seems to have forgotten that it has illegitimate children in the east. The west bred those terrorists here so that is why the east have them mostly. And why shouldn't the people fund these guys? they have reason in lots of cases. You crippled Iraq and destabilised the entire region including Syria and Libya, their economies are dead. Your govt kills more civilians than terrorists via drone strikes. It attacks weddings where out of 200 people there is only one terrorist but the rest are labeled as collateral damage and you seem to agree that that is the suitable option. And if that is so then you should consider that your strikes are producing a new generation of people who see you as a bully and a murderer and it is easy to justify their hatred then when they have a dead body in their home, someone who is collateral damage.

That hate you see is a result of American foreign policy in most cases. The west is to blame for its part so I am sorry if that hurts your feelings but I am not sure if looking at only one side of the picture helps anyone.

It takes two to tango. You can say that perhaps this is not as bad as I have put it but to deny that the west had nothing to do with it just ignorant.

BTW, I have not talked about radical vs moderate as I don't think it affects my point. My point rests on your foreign policies and your meddling with other countries elections and internal processes.

Alright. Now, if a citizen of Manchester were to retaliate against somebody who didn't attack his city, he'd be excused too?

Philip wrote:
- what are we supposed to do?

Well, you should have never gotten involved in the first place, and now that you have, and you have a messed up ME on your hands, you are doing perhaps what you can and making new enemies in the process. It's really a tragedy IMO. The only way to deal with it now has greater cons than pros but that is the consequence of lots of western actions. The way it's going now will only result in further radicalism and there is nothing you can do about it. I get why the west spins this as radical Islam without ever owning up to the reasons, atleast their own part in it, in the mess they have made of things. The blunders range from Raza shah pehalvi to OBL to Iraqi WMD's. Your govt, supports a Saudi regime only to counter Iran and Iraq and have done so for decades. Saudis commit war crimes in Yemen and sponsor many terrorist organizations as well.

The list of western blunders is huge but ofcourse I don't expect them to say it but you don't start a war with them because it in your interests and whatever terrorism they are sponsoring doesn't really affect you. It's the same logic that was applied in the creation of OBL and his league of terrorists.

And I don't say that what is happening to people in America or Uk or other western nations is justified. It's not. It's terrible But I am saying it's consequential. You roam in your countries in a normal way while saying that you are engaged in a war on terror. Well War has it's casualties too, you have drones they have people. Each of the two uses their own tactics.


Looking at it from a pure "Its radical Islam, West has nothing to do with it" approach will only result in more of what's happening.
*edited

Hortator wrote:Alright. Now, if a citizen of Manchester were to retaliate against somebody who didn't attack his city, he'd be excused too?

Not excused, but I understand why they'd do it. I won't say they are radical. They are only retaliating.

Ed: It's not that simple, Phil. A lot of things that were set in motion by previous administrations are still issues, and will likely continue to be, so current policy is only one of many factors. Besides that, asking which policies are hurting Islamic countries implies that they all have the same interests. They don't.

What you are saying is that the terrorists aren't logical. They can't say, "I'm murdering these people at a concert because of A and B. People willing to kill innocent civilians in a theatre are mad men! Those who imply that if the west would only stop this or that, we wouldn't have these people doing such things. And THAT is a steaming load of crap! These people have bought into the politics of hate. Period! There is NO rational or moral justifications for such peoples' terrorist actions. Look at ISIS, throwing their own people out of buildings, chopping off heads, bombs, etc. The only thing these people respond to is brute force! Because people who have their kind of sensibilities are not going to be moved by diplomatic actions and play nice by the West. There is zero justification that is logical. And people who are calling modern day Westerners "Crusaders" - really, what freaking century are they living in? EVERYWHERE such people have taken over, the things suffered by those under them make their supposed beefs with how the west has supposedly negatively impacted them as almost like a day at Disneyland. When I see such brutality, and someone "thoughtfully" suggests that if the West only did this or that it would get much better. Not with people of a terror mindset - these are evil people who hate on level the Nazis would be amazed at.

Ed, I know all that - and yet terrorism still is illogical and changing things won't change those determined to hate and kill. What level of suffering is ongoing by the West would a logical person would deem barbarism as a reasonable response? See, you're trying to logically deduce why evil people think and act as they do. "Oh, I'm poor and repressed, things were done by your country to my people before you or I was born, but I'm going to kill you and your children in your market or place of entertainment anyway." If it was so simple that some logical and benevolent actions would sooth such people, then millions of Muslims wouldn't also be pissed at the brutality of the Islamists. Did you forget that such groups are often doing this to their own people. Again, ISIS has murdered far more Muslims than Westerners. Same with most of these groups - they hate their rival Muslim factions just as bad. There is NO logical response that will placate people filled with rage, hate and murderous intent. Anyone who thinks different isn't a realist.

And on this same page, I see accusations that the west has collaborated with dictators, and yet we're blamed with removing them. WHICH is it???!!! Yep, we've done both. But what choice do we have when there are NO certain good guys to deal with? You have to deal with whoever is willing and ABLE to keep a peace - no matter how brutally they are willing to do it - and that will always be an exceptionally messy and uncertain endeavor. That's just an unfortunate reality of much of the Middle East. Wanna know how filled with hate these Islamist factions are - just remove a strongman over them - and the people will clamor for the days when there was a "nice guy like Saddam, etc. to enforce the peace we once had." If the people of Syria, as a whole, could trade the present nightmare for the stability of the past under their strongman - which do you think they would choose? THAT is why the West has often dealt with such terrible people. "Oh, the West only cares about out oil." How about the West realizes that world stability is impacted by the lifeline that oil represents vast millions around the world - here and abroad. Disrupt it, chaos. And those factions despise the Muslim rulers of the Middleastern kingdoms - they'd love to overthrow them and bring pure hell to their countries and peoples.

I present to you all, Occam's Razor:

Truth is ever to be found in simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things. Isaac Newton
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quot ... 05819.html