Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of cafe

[RickD]

So was mine. Why do threads here always follow the same pattern?

Why does mentioning homosexuality inevitably lead to somebody equating it (either directly or by implication) with pedophilia?

If the point is that eventually someone repugnant will come into your business and test your principles, why not just put it that way?

And your answer is?

[Nessa]

So was mine. Why do threads here always follow the same pattern?

Why does mentioning homosexuality inevitably lead to somebody equating it (either directly or by implication) with pedophilia?

If the point is that eventually someone repugnant will come into your business and test your principles, why not just put it that way?

If you knew me, you would know I am not trying to equate sins. I dont see myself as any better than a rapist or paedophile when it comes to the crunch.

I am supposing you might find those sorts of people disgusting and would not knowingly serve someone like that but I could be wrong. I dont know you either

[RickD]

For the coffee shop owner:
http://youtu.be/457N1m4oUZw

[edwardmurphy]

Fair enough, Nessa, although to be clear I don't believe in sin. Homosexuality is not a crime, and there's nothing wrong with a homosexual relationship between consenting adults. Rape and pedophilia are crimes. They do damage. Putting all three in the same category is incorrect and frankly dangerous.

As far as whether or not I'd serve a rapist or pedophile, it's an odd question. How would I even know if I was? If I did know it would mean that the individual had been convicted, served their time, and been released, so yeah, I guess I'd serve them. If we don't allow people who've served their time to reintegrate into society then our entire approach to criminal justice is screwed. That's not to say I'd let them crash on my couch or hang out with my kids, but that's a different question.

[Kurieuo]

While Nessa's raising such is slightly different, there is a reason I see why pedopihlia is often raised in debates to do with homosexuality.

Physicalism is accepted as a given, and what this means is that everything about us is determined physically by this gene or that gene. While the science has never found a "gay gene" so-to-speak, it was heavily promoted and pushed onto society that such a thing exists. And, by and large, society swallowed this in the name of tolerance and to not be seen homophobic. So then, this shifted the debate from "same sex preference" to "same sex orientation". Therefore, if someone IS gay, is drawn to the same sex, this it's not of their own choosing but rather because that is the way they are made.

So then, obviously a natural logical corollary is that pedophila too is biological. That is, adults who prefer children have no real choice, but rather it is the way they are oriented. That is, they have some "pedo gene", are simply made that way. And to be honest, from the perspective of Naturalism, such could have even more justification since a male being attracted in particular to younger females allows for more children to be had. So, unlike homosexuality, which has no real naturalistic benefit, pedophila might actually have evolutionary benefit to the survival of a species. Such a thing might be freely said of any non-human species. It's only a matter of time before society goes down that rabbit hole with humans, if it hasn't already started to do so.

What is then the reason for introducing pedophilia? Basically to shock people into pausing and thinking through the natural conclusion of their arguments for accepting homosexuality as normal rather than a psychological disorder like pedophilia. But, it never works. People are too inconsistent and emotionally driven. Many will accept a physicalist basis for homosexuality as justification for accepting such like left/right-handedness, but when pedophilia is introduced, "Oh no, that's clearly wrong and adults must be held accountable."

I agree Ed, acceptance of physicalism leads to dangerous outcomes, especially if we are indeed responsible for our choices and actions -- it'll be used like a get off the hook free for anything and everything. We can truly say with Bart Simpson, "I didn't do it!"

[Nessa]

Fair enough, Nessa, although to be clear I don't believe in sin. Homosexuality is not a crime, and there's nothing wrong with a homosexual relationship between consenting adults. Rape and pedophilia are crimes. They do damage. Putting all three in the same category is incorrect and frankly dangerous.

As far as whether or not I'd serve a rapist or pedophile, it's an odd question. How would I even know if I was? If I did know it would mean that the individual had been convicted, served their time, and been released, so yeah, I guess I'd serve them. If we don't allow people who've served their time to reintegrate into society then our entire approach to criminal justice is screwed. That's not to say I'd let them crash on my couch or hang out with my kids, but that's a different question.

So is your rationale for accepting homosexuality and not rape or pediophila a matter of perceived danger? Who gets to decide that? Who is the one that can be truly objective to say this is dangerous and this is not? By whose standards?

And what if its your rapist walking through your 'shops' door or your child's? I mean if the criminal has now served his time.... Who are you to refuse them? That's where your logic ultimately leads

[Blessed]

Homosexuality is not a crime, and there's nothing wrong with a homosexual relationship between consenting adults. Rape and pedophilia are crimes. They do damage. Putting all three in the same category is incorrect and frankly dangerous.

Does "consenting adults" include strangers meeting for hookups in public restrooms and parks?

Not only is homosexuality wrong in a Biblical sense; the collective fallout of homosexualty confers a huge emotional, social, medical, and tax cost on our society, bourne by the rest of us. This week the state of CA decriminalized intentional homosexual HIV transmission. CA also ruled blood banks refusing blood donations from homosexuals (as they rightfully did during the Orlando Pulse nightclub massacre) is illegal "discrimination". That was this week. What will happen next week?

Human values change over time. God's values do not. God's law is clear on homosexuality. It is a sin. That's the difference between God's law and everchanging human definitions of "right" and "wrong".

When I was growing up in Florida during the 1990's homosexuality was openly joked about and mocked. Calling someone a "f-ag" or "f-aggot" was a common prelude to a fight. Indirect social shaming made young homosexuals second guess themselves and stay in the closet. There were 2 known male homosexuals in my high school of 5,000 people. One "came out" his senior year. The other after he graduated.

My how things have changed. The "acceptance" of homosexually today (vs. it's rejection only decades earlier) was achieved through decades of brainwashing with the implied threat of force (loss of job, lawsuits etc). That is how homosexual sin became "accepted" in America until it eventually became a posturing "virtue cause". It wasn't because of the "village people" "Rock Hudson" "Liberache" or the "stone wall incident". These are historical revisionist lies drilled into kids skulls in the public school system today.

Rape and pedophiia are crimes. Yes. Until humanity decides they aren't. That's the problem.

[Blessed]

Regarding video of the worm ejecting Christians from his business:

I subscribe to Libertarianism. I don't believe he did anything wrong. He should have the right to kick them out. It's for the best.

But the government considers this outright religious discrimination no?

[edwardmurphy]

Rape and pedophiia are crimes. Yes. Until humanity decides they aren't. That's the problem.

I don't get the hand-wringing. Pedophilia was legal, normal, and socially acceptable for most of human history. I assume that that's why the Bible doesn't bother to condemn it or establish an age of consent. It was written by ancient people who had no problem with arranged marriages and child brides. Why are Christians suddenly worried that the secular government that banned pedophilia (despite that Scriptural indifference) is suddenly going to reverse itself? Hell, the Vatican only raised the age of consent - from 13 - a couple of years ago, and they did it because of pressure from secular forces. Using legal pedophilia as the basis of a slippery slope argument is stupid.

By comparison, the Bible - mostly the OT - has a big problem with consenting homosexual acts between adults. Our thankfully secular government thankfully sees things differently and has finally stopped backing ancient prejudices with the force of law. That, to me, is progress. And it's progress made despite the objections of social conservatives who take their moral guidance from a book that bans consensual gay relationships but not sex with children.

The fact is the Bible is an ancient document that takes some ancient positions on issues that we now see differently. Mostly, anyway.

Oh, and regarding anonymous homosexual hook-ups, they're no more or less common or damaging than anonymous heterosexual hook-ups, so singling that out just spotlights a prejudice.

[PaulSacramento]

Gay people tend to be more promiscuous then straight, gays will tell you that.
Homosexuals have a higher degree of STD/STI's then hetros.
https://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm
HIV is obvious.
Anal cancer is higher.
The homosexual lifestyle is also more violent:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29994648

Last year, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released figures showing people in same-sex relationships experience levels of domestic violence just as often as those in heterosexual relationships.
But the conclusions of another study this year by the Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago - a review of data from four earlier studies, involving 30,000 participants - go further.
"One of our startling findings was that rates of domestic violence among same-sex couples is pretty consistently higher than for opposite sex couples," says Richard Carroll, a psychologist and co-author of the report.

Studies
The Journal of the Family Research Institute using data from the U.S. Justice Department's Bureau of Justice Statistics and the Center for Disease Control concluded that "married men who are not separated are at least 25 times less apt to be domestically attacked than a homosexual male in an 'on-going relationship.' Even if we include all married and separated husbands, the risk of domestic violence in a male-male homosexual relationship is still at least 18 times greater."[6]
Another study indicated that 83% of homosexuals report they have been emotionally abused by homosexual partners.[7]
The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Domestic Abuse Fact Sheet states that "11% of women in homosexual relationships and 23% of men in homosexual relationships report being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by an intimate partner".[8]
A study published in The Journal of Family Violence reported among its participants that "Emotional abuse was reported by 83%" of its participants.[7]
A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examined conflict and violence in lesbian relationships. The researchers found that 90 percent of the lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one or more acts of verbal aggression from their intimate partners during the year prior to this study, with 31 percent reporting one or more incidents of physical abuse.[9]
A 1985 study of 1109 lesbians by Gwat-Yong Lie and Sabrina Gentlewarrier reported that slightly more than half of the respondents indicated that they had been abused by a female partner.[10]
Coleman, in a 1990 study of 90 lesbians reported that 46.6% had experienced repeated acts of violence.[11]
A study of 113 lesbians reported (1994) that 41% said they had been abused in one or more relationships.[12]
In their book, Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence (1991), Island and Letellier postulate that "the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population."[13]
The Journal of Social Service Research reported in 1991 that survey of 1,099 lesbians showed that slightly more than 50 percent of the lesbians reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner, "the most frequently indicated forms of abuse were verbal/emotional/psychological abuse and combined physical-psychological abuse." [14]
A study of lesbian couples reported (2000) in the Handbook of Family Development and Intervention "indicates that 54 percent had experienced 10 or more abusive incidents, 74 percent had experienced six or more incidents, 60 percent reported a pattern to the abuse, and 71 percent said it grew worse over time."[15]

Homosexuality seems to be more damaging and dangerous.

[PaulSacramento]

Pedophilia has to do with desiring and having sex with prepubertal children.

Culturally speaking though, both OT and NT are part of cultures were puberty was the minimum age typically.
Betrothed was different and some were promised in marriage at a very early age BUT consummation only happened at/afer puberty.
We should be careful, however, of commenting on what the bible does NOT say and there is no mention of "age of consent" or anything like that NOR is there a condemnation of sex with children.
The bible does condemn sex outside of marriage, so only married sex is permissible.

[PaulSacramento]

Jesus' condemnation to anyone that harms a child can, of course, be viewed as a condemnation of pedophilia.

[RickD]

Gay people tend to be more promiscuous then straight, gays will tell you that.
Homosexuals have a higher degree of STD/STI's then hetros.
https://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm
HIV is obvious.
Anal cancer is higher.
The homosexual lifestyle is also more violent:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29994648

Last year, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released figures showing people in same-sex relationships experience levels of domestic violence just as often as those in heterosexual relationships.
But the conclusions of another study this year by the Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago - a review of data from four earlier studies, involving 30,000 participants - go further.
"One of our startling findings was that rates of domestic violence among same-sex couples is pretty consistently higher than for opposite sex couples," says Richard Carroll, a psychologist and co-author of the report.

Studies
The Journal of the Family Research Institute using data from the U.S. Justice Department's Bureau of Justice Statistics and the Center for Disease Control concluded that "married men who are not separated are at least 25 times less apt to be domestically attacked than a homosexual male in an 'on-going relationship.' Even if we include all married and separated husbands, the risk of domestic violence in a male-male homosexual relationship is still at least 18 times greater."[6]
Another study indicated that 83% of homosexuals report they have been emotionally abused by homosexual partners.[7]
The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Domestic Abuse Fact Sheet states that "11% of women in homosexual relationships and 23% of men in homosexual relationships report being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by an intimate partner".[8]
A study published in The Journal of Family Violence reported among its participants that "Emotional abuse was reported by 83%" of its participants.[7]
A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examined conflict and violence in lesbian relationships. The researchers found that 90 percent of the lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one or more acts of verbal aggression from their intimate partners during the year prior to this study, with 31 percent reporting one or more incidents of physical abuse.[9]
A 1985 study of 1109 lesbians by Gwat-Yong Lie and Sabrina Gentlewarrier reported that slightly more than half of the respondents indicated that they had been abused by a female partner.[10]
Coleman, in a 1990 study of 90 lesbians reported that 46.6% had experienced repeated acts of violence.[11]
A study of 113 lesbians reported (1994) that 41% said they had been abused in one or more relationships.[12]
In their book, Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence (1991), Island and Letellier postulate that "the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population."[13]
The Journal of Social Service Research reported in 1991 that survey of 1,099 lesbians showed that slightly more than 50 percent of the lesbians reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner, "the most frequently indicated forms of abuse were verbal/emotional/psychological abuse and combined physical-psychological abuse." [14]
A study of lesbian couples reported (2000) in the Handbook of Family Development and Intervention "indicates that 54 percent had experienced 10 or more abusive incidents, 74 percent had experienced six or more incidents, 60 percent reported a pattern to the abuse, and 71 percent said it grew worse over time."[15]

Homosexuality seems to be more damaging and dangerous.

Paul,

Please don't confuse edwardmurphy with facts. The left does not listen to facts.

[Blessed]

Rape and pedophiia are crimes. Yes. Until humanity decides they aren't. That's the problem.

I don't get the hand-wringing. Pedophilia was legal, normal, and socially acceptable for most of human history. I assume that that's why the Bible doesn't bother to condemn it or establish an age of consent. It was written by ancient people who had no problem with arranged marriages and child brides. Why are Christians suddenly worried that the secular government that banned pedophilia (despite that Scriptural indifference) is suddenly going to reverse itself? Hell, the Vatican only raised the age of consent - from 13 - a couple of years ago, and they did it because of pressure from secular forces. Using legal pedophilia as the basis of a slippery slope argument is stupid.

By comparison, the Bible - mostly the OT - has a big problem with consenting homosexual acts between adults. Our thankfully secular government thankfully sees things differently and has finally stopped backing ancient prejudices with the force of law. That, to me, is progress. And it's progress made despite the objections of social conservatives who take their moral guidance from a book that bans consensual gay relationships but not sex with children.

The fact is the Bible is an ancient document that takes some ancient positions on issues that we now see differently. Mostly, anyway.

Oh, and regarding anonymous homosexual hook-ups, they're no more or less common or damaging than anonymous heterosexual hook-ups, so singling that out just spotlights a prejudice.

Your historical position, or some rationalized derrivitive thereof, could be the basis for adding a "P" to LGBT in the future. Not sure if "B" will be added before "P" though.

Regarding Biblical indifference: Indifference is not the same as absense. Absense of a Biblical position does not automatically affirm position. Many things are not mentioned in the Bible which are obvious sins.

If you consider progress to be Soddom and Gommorah that's your opinion. Kids growing up and conditioned in an environment like this are brainwashed destined not to have a chance.

Regarding gay hook-ups being equal to straight hook-ups. I'm not sure where your getting this information from because anyone knows hook-ups are the foundation of the gay lifestyle. Hook-ups are far, far, far more prevelant in the gay community. Always have been. Always will be. Carnal biology and easy access make it so. Your average gay man does not have to "work" to get sex.

I lived in the 5th largest gay city in the U.S. for 8 years. I saw allot during this time I'd rather forget. I'm not going into the graphic details on this website, because it's not Kosher. Homosexuality is a carnal lifestyle. Bottom line (no pun intended). "Love" has nothing to do with shuffling through vast numbers of hook-up partners. Generally speaking, gay slogans like "love wins" are non sequitur.

I've noticed people, Christians included, always seem to ignore the facts and focus on the exception to the rule. The loving monogamous homosexual couple who met in high school and have been faithfully married for 30 years is the dire exception to the rule. If I had to guess I would say less than 1%. If that much.

STD rates are sky high amoung homosexuals for a reason. Per testing centers and USCDC statistics. This is why the bloodbanks after the pulse nightclub shootings refused blood from gay men. Discriminating against gays reduces lab rejection costs. "Free" HIV-STD anti-viral cocktails are incredibly expensive to produce. These social costs are pushed onto the taxpayers by homosexuals. You may recall in the 1990's, NBA player Magic Johnson prevented HIV (which he got from serial Adultery) from developing into AIDS. Majic Johnson was rich enough to afford anti-virals. Unlike most people.

In the 1980's, when HIV-AIDS first concretly appeared, it was a "gay disease" spread exclusively by gay men: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaëtan_Dugas . Tax payer funded Quarantine was put forth as a logical legit way to stop HIV-AIDS (and it's devestating costs) from spreading. However - homosexual activists groups GLADD and ACT UP cried foul. They declared quarantine was an unconstitutional voilation of ones "civil rights". You see. They did not care about people dying. They needed sex. They had a right to enjoy the "gay lifestyle".

The corrupt politicians in Washington D.C obliged and the disease was allowed to spread into the population unabated.

This is the truth. The disease is consequence of humanity violating God's law.

[Blessed]

Please disregard the link I provided in the response https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaëtan_Dugas

The entry has been completely re-written by Wikopedia. The entire article on patient zero was was deleted and re-written. CNN , NPR , New York Times, PBS and other left wing MSM media have been pushed to the top of Google search results. None of their articles mention anything about this mans depraved lifestyle, as the general norm for the gay community at the time. Such as his weekly trips to gay bathhouses for anonymous sex with mutiple partners. With purple lesions on his body reported by said infected partners.

Nor to they mention the 1980's quarantine debate, GLADD , ACT UP and ACLU involvments in this issue during the 1980's.

Last time I looked this up was years ago. Since that time the narrative has been completely replaced.

I also typed in "1980s gay quarantine" which used to autocomplete. The word "quarantine" has been deleted. All of the crediable sources (videos, documents, articles from that era) have pushed to the bottom of the search results replaced with left wing MSM and gay media as credible sources.

This is unbelivable. They have literally replaced everything.