Evidence for God from Science

K: Yet, to say someone's services should be state enforcable, for ANY reason, to me rings of slavary and that we're all -- all people in that state -- are ultimately state property rather than truly free. This I strongly resist and disagree with.

People should be able to follow there conscience or whatever THEY think is good for their own business. But, again, there are important nuances to consider. Pre-civil rights, businesses discriminated on the basis of race - which caused millions to be treated like second-class citizens - which led to civil unrest and societal disharmony and dangerous conflicts. All such things are wrong. Nevertheless, people need to see that protecting the rights of conscience of others will, at some point, protect us all.

The huge challenge is to write laws that do more good than harm and that prevent government overreach.

So then, I gather that is a "yes" to my question. That is, you ultimately believe in state enforced servitude under certain circumstances (i.e., where not providing a service is due to discriminatory beliefs)?

K,

If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that you'd rather a company be able to refuse service to someone who is black for example, because they are black, without the govt. interfering?

Perhaps the social outcry against the company would be enough to keep companies from this kind of behavior?

As we live in a free society that is not a theocracy, Christians nor anyone of any beliefs can get what only they individually desire. No, I don't want the government in my business - least not what isn't good for the individual and his freedoms. But the question is where should the individual's freedom have restraints vs. to the good benefits for society. So, it's a tricky balance to achieve appropriate laws - laws that are made by politicians voted into office by the collective sensibilities of a diverse public with a considerable range of ideas and beliefs.

K, do you pay taxes? Are those taxes not spent on some things you detest? Do you not live where there are politicians you detest? Are there not laws you live under that allow things you don't like? Of course! So, if YOU were in an office of influence, how would you expect to change these things?

No one in a free society will get all they desire. But hopefully, enough people of good values will pursue the best we can in lawmakers and laws. And so the best any Christian can do is try to encourage Godly values and good ideas in others. But as so many in society are evil, they would take unlimited personal freedoms to terrible ends - like all those places that wouldn't serve black people - incredible but true. Should the law allow such personal freedom so as to create blatant discrimination like racial ones? Should rental property owners legally be able to enforce "No Christians allowed?" Or no _______ (you fill in the blank).

RickD wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:42 am K,

If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that you'd rather a company be able to refuse service to someone who is black for example, because they are black, without the govt. interfering?

Perhaps the social outcry against the company would be enough to keep companies from this kind of behavior?

Yes, it can't be state enforced otherwise someone will be oppressed. History shows that.

Consider the Catholic church, and the pressure it exerted upon kingdoms when someone challenged their doctrines. For example, William Tyndale translating the Bible into english so lay people could understand Scripture (and others who were burnt at the stake for similar such acts). Or, Martin Luther who was persecuted for shining the light on the deceit and lies on indulgences being able to free loved ones from pergatory, effectively buying their way into heaven. Where freedom of speech, and just an ability to live "freely" runs against those in authority (i.e., those running a country/state), most atrocious abuses often happen.

Now, we're increasingly facing an intollerant ideology that started off based upon liberalism, but has quickly turned authoritarian. There are some who wouldn't consider a black person refusing service to someone because they're white as racism, when clearly racism isn't just something that white people can have. There are some who wouldn't consider a gay person refusing to serve a Christian as anything other than justified, simply because Christians carry beliefs that many consider to be "homophobic". There are people being suppressed from reporting on true crimes committed by Muslims, simply because it is deemed by an extreme authoritarian view that Muslims are a minority in the West and so those carrying Islamic beliefs should be protected at all cost (and indeed, those who are attacked by Muslims probably deserved it or brought it on in any case). In fact, when such crimes are reported in statistics through various European states, Middle Eastern persons and immigrants are often categoried under "Asian".

People often see the wrong only when it runs against their sensativities, and not when their beliefs run against the sensativities of others. There are some, as I expect we'd be aware to, who call for banning the Bible or certain books in it, because it is intollerant and offensive to one's sensibilities that homosexuality is morally wrong. This, it is said, is a bigoted and hateful position and so the Bible should be banned because it contains hate speech.

So, this is why the state shouldn't regulate beliefs, thoughts and the like. Such is a dangerous place to be which belongs to times of Stalin in the early 20th century, or communist China (especially under Mao Zedong) and the like. If it were Evangelical Christians trying to force people to pray and the like, I'd defend the right of a person not to. God gives freedom to choose, and so should we. This is respecting of the Imago Dei in all persons and as I see representative of a governance that God would also endorse.

The state should however police things where people infringe upon our freedoms, for example, such is most clear when someone causes us physical harm, ties us up against our will, etc.

State should also as I see incentify behaviour considered positive to people in society and governing there of. If society is being deeply prejudiced, for example as it was in the US with African Americans in time past, then make it necessary in all public spaces to have shared toilets, transport, and the like. Provide incentives, tax deductions perhaps, to fall in line and render services to both black and whites without prejudice. If someone is too "old" and still harvests racism, you can't transplant their brain, as a government you can run community programs to burst prejudiced stereotypes.

Someone should not be thrown in jail for their beliefs and thoughts, nor should they be forced render their services (which amounts to slavary) or face litigation. If you're happy with a Christian being thrown in jail today for denying to render their services to another (bigotry or not), then don't cry when society turns and it is now you being thrown in jail for choosing to not serve someone you consider a bigot. People often tolerate such freedoms being denied to others they disagree with, but when the shoe is on their foot then they start crying foul.

Stu wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:21 am Some good news.

Justices side with Colorado baker on same-sex wedding cake

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court ruled narrowly Monday for a Colorado baker who wouldn't make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple. But the court is not deciding the big issue in the case, whether a business can invoke religious objections to refuse service to gay and lesbian people.

The justices' limited ruling turned on what the court described as anti-religious bias on the Colorado Civil Rights Commission when it ruled against baker Jack Phillips. The justices voted 7-2 that the commission violated Phillips' rights under the First Amendment.

More

Why is it narrow and why should he have to bankrupt himself going to the Supreme court for something that should be a given from the get go ?

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:00 pm
Yet, to say someone's services should be state enforcable, for ANY reason, to me rings of slavary and that we're all -- all people in that state -- are ultimately state property rather than truly free. This I strongly resist and disagree with.

Your house is state property. Your property taxes are "rent".

I've been looking overseas at houses where there are no property tax. Planning on leaving for a while now. I just need to get the guts to do it.

Blessed wrote: ↑Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:21 pm

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:00 pm
Yet, to say someone's services should be state enforcable, for ANY reason, to me rings of slavary and that we're all -- all people in that state -- are ultimately state property rather than truly free. This I strongly resist and disagree with.

Your house is state property. Your property taxes are "rent".

I've been looking overseas at houses where there are no property tax. Planning on leaving for a while now. I just need to get the guts to do it.

It seems more and more people today just role over and accept people in society, including themselves, belong to their state (government) as well. We have no rights except that which the state gives us.

I suppose this kind of makes sense under a secular view, where there is no higher authority, no higher morality, than that which a state dictates. Does that give them the right to control us, tell us what to do, and own us, our children? I don't know. Kenny, Ed?

I'm all in on K's Christian / secular utopia that encourages the good / discourages the bad, and respects the individual's right to His on conscience and values. Only thing is, many people's idea of conscience will be to trample upon your values so as to maintain their own ones as they desire and perceive them. And so how this plays out in votes, office holders and laws will always be a matter of numbers and whatever the majority's collective personal values happens to produce. So, I live in the real world (for now) where this utopia doesn't exist, I can only do my best to encourage whatever I think should be done and how. And encouraging people to FIRST discover the Lord and His ways are the best I can contribute to this dream. Until then, I'll try not to worry by remembering and trusting that, ultimately, God is in control. Our expectations in THIS time should necessarily be hopeful but realistic.

Blessed wrote: ↑Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:21 pm

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:00 pm
Yet, to say someone's services should be state enforcable, for ANY reason, to me rings of slavary and that we're all -- all people in that state -- are ultimately state property rather than truly free. This I strongly resist and disagree with.

Your house is state property. Your property taxes are "rent".

I've been looking overseas at houses where there are no property tax. Planning on leaving for a while now. I just need to get the guts to do it.

Wouldn't they just get the money out of you some other way, though? Otherwise citizens would be complaining about the lack of spending on infrastructure and so on.

Blessed wrote: ↑Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:21 pmYour house is state property. Your property taxes are "rent".

I've been looking overseas at houses where there are no property tax. Planning on leaving for a while now. I just need to get the guts to do it.

Your house is yours (or, more likely, the bank's). Your property taxes are the fees that you pay for membership in the community and the services and amenities provided therein. Fees that you, by the way, implicitly accepted when you chose to purchase property in that town or city.

I don't know where you are, but around here property taxes are set by the town or city council who, by the way, are elected officials. Those taxes pay for our police and fire departments, snow removal, road upkeep, schools, sewer, water, library, parks and recreation programs, trash pickup, the upkeep and maintenance of public buildings, and a variety of other things.

There are definitely some downsides - for example where I live real estate prices are through the roof (the lady next door in my condo building just sold her 2 bedroom, 1 bath unit for $450,000) and that's pushed our taxes steadily higher. Affordable working class housing is hard to come by, and some seniors are struggling with the tax burden on property that's suddenly worth 1000 times what they paid for it.

On the other hand, we have great schools, a great library, beautiful parks, wide, level sidewalks, effective police and firefighters, tons of playgrounds, excellent snow removal, curbside trash pickup with access to the town dump, safe water, a reliable sewage system, town offices that are open Monday through Friday from nine to five, and a bunch of other amenities that make life easier, safer, and more pleasant. And if we have a complaint we can go to a council meeting and speak directly to our elected leaders. Or e-mail them. Or corner them at a coffee shop.

I honestly don't understand the complaining. If you can find a place that can offer you first world services, safety, and amenities without collecting taxes to pay for it all please let me know so I can retire there.

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:16 pm

Blessed wrote: ↑Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:21 pmYour house is state property. Your property taxes are "rent".

I've been looking overseas at houses where there are no property tax. Planning on leaving for a while now. I just need to get the guts to do it.

Your house is yours (or, more likely, the bank's). Your property taxes are the fees that you pay for membership in the community and the services and amenities provided therein. Fees that you, by the way, implicitly accepted when you chose to purchase property in that town or city.

I don't know where you are, but around here property taxes are set by the town or city council who, by the way, are elected officials. Those taxes pay for our police and fire departments, snow removal, road upkeep, schools, sewer, water, library, parks and recreation programs, trash pickup, the upkeep and maintenance of public buildings, and a variety of other things.

There are definitely some downsides - for example where I live real estate prices are through the roof (the lady next door in my condo building just sold her 2 bedroom, 1 bath unit for $450,000) and that's pushed our taxes steadily higher. Affordable working class housing is hard to come by, and some seniors are struggling with the tax burden on property that's suddenly worth 1000 times what they paid for it.

On the other hand, we have great schools, a great library, beautiful parks, wide, level sidewalks, effective police and firefighters, tons of playgrounds, excellent snow removal, curbside trash pickup with access to the town dump, safe water, a reliable sewage system, town offices that are open Monday through Friday from nine to five, and a bunch of other amenities that make life easier, safer, and more pleasant. And if we have a complaint we can go to a council meeting and speak directly to our elected leaders. Or e-mail them. Or corner them at a coffee shop.

I honestly don't understand the complaining. If you can find a place that can offer you first world services, safety, and amenities without collecting taxes to pay for it all please let me know so I can retire there.

Spoken like a true left liberal in 2018. I'm not paying for "membership in the community". A "community" of strangers nonetheless. People whom I have nothing in common with other then a superficial obligation talk and hope they won't be crazy, stalk me, spy or steal from me as I gradually get to know them - in a good fences arms length kind of way. Shame on me. It never felt like this when I was growing up that's for sure. We even let neighbors stay at our houses and everyone helped each other out.

You are mistaken. You think taxes pay for the things you mention? They don't. It's a smoke screen. HOA is a perfect example. The place I rent at does 1 million per month in fees - where does it all go? Whereever thier accountants say it goes. Check the property managers house someday. It's next to the marina. There is a Yacht out back.

Property taxes are immoral. Not to mention they discriminate against people without children. And really it's absurd like renting clothing. I should not have to pay. Clothing and shelter are necessities. There is no implied contract by purchasing a home. Only duress. Property tax is supposed to go to schools. It doesn't. Proven by the explosion in real estate values - while school boards complain for more money. Only lottery money goes to schools. It's all a scam.

As a matter of fact most taxes don't work AT ALL. I live in Florida and California in the USA. The taxes are out of control. 1% goes to your "community" from all these taxes you're forced to pay. I remember reading online about Ronalds Regans income tax report - buried under the rug by the mainstream media. Regans audit showed almost all of the income tax goes to pay interest to the Federal Reserve. To maintain the USA national debt like a - credit card minimum. You work 3-4 months per year as a slave for - NOTHING. Taxes are unconstitutional. I leaned all of this online. Now that they can't bury it anymore feel free to look it up. Constitution only allows for Customs tariffs. Income taxesPrior to 1913 ALL services were paid for with Tariffs (like what Trump is doing now). Even after 1913 they could not collect until WWII when the "war tax" became the "income tax" and morphed into what we have today.

Liberals are economically illiterate. Every example in world history and modern history prove taxes stifle and are always abused by human governments. Look at Dubai. The middle eastern nation is 1st world - it took off like a rocket after the leader slashed government to nothing and cut out 90% of taxes including property taxes - investment poured in.

Taxes don't work because governments always abuse power. Even Jesus was against taxes and parasite bankers. The two go hand in hand.

It's all a big scam. Gas taxes build roads. In FL they steal the gas taxes and build toll roads - to hire more government workers to collect more money - then build more toll roads. Billions in gas taxes - hardly any spent on roads. Same with Property taxes. It's all a racket.

Yes society needs some government. A small government. Which was perfectly funded by Customs tariffs before 1913 - as the Constitution and Congress demanded. The entire country was funded this way and it worked perfectly - and during a time period where the cost of these tariffs were largely borne by business, the rich and corporations as most consumer products were domestic. The little guy saw nothing in rising prices.

The bottom line is when I have to pay a property tax or HOA fee - you do not own your home. I do not even want to get started no HOA fees. Someone would have to be insane to voluntarily sign over to a HOA.

Nicki wrote: ↑Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:02 pm

Blessed wrote: ↑Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:21 pm

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:00 pm
Yet, to say someone's services should be state enforcable, for ANY reason, to me rings of slavary and that we're all -- all people in that state -- are ultimately state property rather than truly free. This I strongly resist and disagree with.

Your house is state property. Your property taxes are "rent".

I've been looking overseas at houses where there are no property tax. Planning on leaving for a while now. I just need to get the guts to do it.

Wouldn't they just get the money out of you some other way, though? Otherwise citizens would be complaining about the lack of spending on infrastructure and so on.

They have to set up a smoke screen to convince people of a need - then abuse it.

In the old days they voted and collected on an as is case by case basis. The cost was nothing. A micro example - I rent at a HOA and they rake in 1 million per year in these fees then produce accounting paperwork with absurdly high lawn care fees. The old foogies who live here see inches thick accounting documents - their eyes glaze over .. they say "ok" well it looks like they know what they are doing - and they PAY.

This place had hurricane damage and now they are getting more cash from the owners outside of the HOA demanding they all pay 20 grand or they will steal their condo sell it and pocket the cash.

That's a micro example of how "the community" government works. Same with taxes. You get 1% back in the "community" of what you're forced to pay at gun point. People just accept this or think it's normal or if they are left liberals - promote more of it under mistaken beliefs.

Blessed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:54 amSpoken like a true left liberal in 2018. I'm not paying for "membership in the community". A "community" of strangers nonetheless. People whom I have nothing in common with other then a superficial obligation talk and hope they won't be crazy, stalk me, spy or steal from me as I gradually get to know them - in a good fences arms length kind of way. Shame on me. It never felt like this when I was growing up that's for sure. We even let neighbors stay at our houses and everyone helped each other out.

Really? Last I checked property taxes had been a method of funding local government since the 1790s, and most of the debate about them is related to questions of fair implementation. For example, many communities offer property tax breaks to longstanding owners in their primary residences, in order to offset the burden on retirees.

Frankly, your take on your community seems like a self-centered blend of libertarianism and nihilism, without a hint of civic virtue. If that's the opposite of "true left liberalism" then I guess I'm content to be a liberal leftie.

Blessed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:54 amYou are mistaken. You think taxes pay for the things you mention? They don't. It's a smoke screen. HOA is a perfect example. The place I rent at does 1 million per month in fees - where does it all go? Whereever thier accountants say it goes. Check the property managers house someday. It's next to the marina. There is a Yacht out back.

Around here the city budget is available to anyone who wants to read it, so actually I know where my tax dollars go, and yes, they do in fact pay for the things that I mentioned, with some also going to prop up poorer communities (of mostly Republicans who aren't the least bit grateful). Oh well. Their kids are as deserving of good schools as mine are so I guess it's a net positive.

I'm not sure why you're ranting about HOAs, since they have nothing to do with property taxes, but whatever. I'm sorry your HOA is a pain in the ass, but ours is working just fine. We collect monthly dues to cover water, sewer, insurance, basic building maintenance, snow removal, and the fire alarm. If something big comes up we discuss it, decide what needs doing and who will do it, and agree on a special assessment or work weekend if we need one. It's all completely transparent and every nickel is accounted for.

Blessed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:54 amProperty taxes are immoral. Not to mention they discriminate against people without children. And really it's absurd like renting clothing. I should not have to pay. Clothing and shelter are necessities. There is no implied contract by purchasing a home. Only duress. Property tax is supposed to go to schools. It doesn't. Proven by the explosion in real estate values - while school boards complain for more money. Only lottery money goes to schools. It's all a scam.

There's that self-centered nihilism again. You don't have kids, so you shouldn't have to kick in to educate other peoples' kids, even though a previous generation of tax payers, some of them childless, kicked in to educate you. Never mind that by nurturing and educating children, even if they're not our own, we strengthen our communities and our nation. Never mind that we need educated workers to compete in the global economy. Never mind that raising our kids to be productive members of society, rather than self-centered leeches, results in a net positive for all of us. I wanna keep all of my money, so to hell with my neighbors and my community and screw the long-term consequences.

Blessed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:54 amAs a matter of fact most taxes don't work AT ALL. I live in Florida and California in the USA. The taxes are out of control. 1% goes to your "community" from all these taxes you're forced to pay. I remember reading online about Ronalds Regans income tax report - buried under the rug by the mainstream media. Regans audit showed almost all of the income tax goes to pay interest to the Federal Reserve. To maintain the USA national debt like a - credit card minimum. You work 3-4 months per year as a slave for - NOTHING. Taxes are unconstitutional. I leaned all of this online. Now that they can't bury it anymore feel free to look it up. Constitution only allows for Customs tariffs. Income taxesPrior to 1913 ALL services were paid for with Tariffs (like what Trump is doing now). Even after 1913 they could not collect until WWII when the "war tax" became the "income tax" and morphed into what we have today.

Blessed, it's common knowledge that a large percentage of our budget goes paying interest on the national debt, and yes, it's reported by the media. You really should take a second and check before you claim that the mainstream media ignores everything that the right wing media claims they do. I doubt Reagan wanted to shine a light on that fact back then, since his policy was to run massive budget deficits.

I know how the Republicans love to criticize the "tax and spend" liberals, but if you pay attention you'll notice that the Republican plan always ends up being "lower taxes, run a budget deficit, and let somebody else deal with the consequences." Trump and the GOP lawmakers just did it again, as a matter of fact.

I'm not going to get into the constitutionality of taxes. The SCOTUS seems to think they pass muster, so I guess they do. That's how the system works. Feel free to push back. That's your right.

Blessed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:54 amLiberals are economically illiterate. Every example in world history and modern history prove taxes stifle and are always abused by human governments. Look at Dubai. The middle eastern nation is 1st world - it took off like a rocket after the leader slashed government to nothing and cut out 90% of taxes including property taxes - investment poured in.

Wow. Citation, please.

Last I looked the most recent big experiment with conservative tax policy happened in Kansas and was such a catastrophe that the Republicans dumped it. Meantime, taxes are fairly high in California and their economy is cranking along just fine.

Blessed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:54 amTaxes don't work because governments always abuse power. Even Jesus was against taxes and parasite bankers. The two go hand in hand.

Man, you're all over the place.

Taxes work if they're logically and fairly implemented. Granted, that's not always the case. Government works of the people pay attention and keep it honest. Again, that doesn't always work out, either. But the notion that taxes and government are both inherently evil and unworkable is libertarian idiocy.

But hey, if you want to steer clear of both government and taxes you're welcome to head to one of the places that has neither. Maybe Yemen? Syria? Somalia? Perhaps you could form a micronation, or maybe go conquer one. If you opt for conquest I suggest the Principality of Sealand. Better than paying taxes, amirite?

Blessed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:54 amIt's all a big scam. Gas taxes build roads. In FL they steal the gas taxes and build toll roads - to hire more government workers to collect more money - then build more toll roads. Billions in gas taxes - hardly any spent on roads. Same with Property taxes. It's all a racket.

Citation, please.

Blessed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:54 amYes society needs some government. A small government. Which was perfectly funded by Customs tariffs before 1913 - as the Constitution and Congress demanded. The entire country was funded this way and it worked perfectly - and during a time period where the cost of these tariffs were largely borne by business, the rich and corporations as most consumer products were domestic. The little guy saw nothing in rising prices.

I have a hunch that it's a bit more complex than that, but I don't have time to do the research. Maybe later.

Blessed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:54 amThe bottom line is when I have to pay a property tax or HOA fee - you do not own your home. I do not even want to get started no HOA fees. Someone would have to be insane to voluntarily sign over to a HOA.

This is odd logic.

If we didn't have an HOA then how would we maintain the building - which we own jointly - or pay bills like insurance and sewage? I guess we could each write separate checks to the city, or maybe send money to one owner, but the former is a pain in the ass and the latter sounds a lot like an HOA. Whatever. If you don't want to be in a HOA then don't join one. Simple enough, no?

Regarding property taxes, which have nothing to do with HOAs, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I know where mine go, I'm mostly content with how they're used, and I don't feel like a slave. I'm a member of a community with privileges and responsibilities.

I don't know if I can get behind your all-or-nothing approach to everything. That's fine in kindergarten, but the grown-up world is more complex than that.

Yes I am a Constitutionalist and Libertarian. I value Ayn Rand.

Governments budget and HOA budget are whatever their accountants say they are. And as the saying goes government is just like the police - they have no accountability. As I said the place I live gets 1 million per year and the property owner has a mansion and a Yacht. One thing I've learned about numbers - they are infinitely divisible. You can make that accounting paperwork so thick and complicated you fulfill all legal obligations and human psychology gives up. Just ask General Electric. They submitted a 57,000 page tax return tendering $0.00 in taxes on 15 billion in profit.

Everyone loses when Government picks winners and losers. Public school system. Ha ha ha ha. What a joke. A massive bureaucratic waste. The kids are stupid and don't learn anything. I am being forced to pay into corruption and waste just to keep my home - when I have no kids. Yes veterans foreigners farmers and certain retired government workers qualify for property tax exemption. Again government picks winners and losers. It's a bunch of bull crap. I went to private school because public school is a joke so my parents took me out. My parents still had to pay property tax AND pay for me to go to private school. They should not have to pay anything if kids are not utilizing the service. Not to mention if government was not involved it would cost 1/100th the amount. The teachers unions are a scourge. I leaned nothing in public school. The only reason to go was to have friends, talk in class and stare at girls asses so i had something to jerk off to when I got back off the school bus. I literally learned nothing from public school. Biggest waste of time ever.

Every "service" you get from government costs 100x as much vs. free market capitalism.

I can't give you exact citations but you will find millions of articles on government waste and mismanagement. Taxes don't work unless they are local and voluntary. No the mainstream media doesn't cover the interest in the national debt. After Regans audit there were NO more reports. Ron Paul passed a bill to audit the Fed and they have yet to comply. The Fed and taxes go hand in hand. If you don't know this you live under a rock.

People are inherently corrupted and flawed and will misuse and abuse positions of power even little by little epecially when money is extracted under duress.

It doesn't work. This country was funded with zero income tax from 1789 to 1913. It was settled and built with no government. Look at Monaco. Look at UAE. It's the best example. Look at Nazi Germany - strictly from an economic point of view only - after Hitler kicked the bankers out and issued Reich Labor Receipts (Good luck Googling this as Google has hidden censored and mixed up the search results apparently even economics can be racist today). Germany went from a 3rd world nation mired in poverty and hell - to a first world nation - in a mere 4 years. In all respects not just manufacturing and military - Hospitals, consumer spending, residential construction, utilities, everything.

Bankers and taxes go hand in hand. Taxes were found to be more profitable then slavery. Everyone works 3-4 months per year for free and gets back 0.00000001. I can't even get them to fill a pot hole. I went to Home Deport and did it myself "illegally". Yes that's right - I could have been arrested if they caught me. Where does all the excess go?

Taxes are not fairly high in Kalifornia. They are absurdly high. That is why everyone, including myself, is fleeing CA. CA is a left liberal police state.