Evidence for God from Science

Hamster: He came not to condemn but to save. Should we as Christians try and do the same ?

Hamster, have YOU ever saved ANYONE? Do you know of some Christian who has?

Philip wrote: ↑Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:48 am Hamster: He came not to condemn but to save. Should we as Christians try and do the same ?

Hamster, have YOU ever saved ANYONE? Do you know of some Christian who has?

We can pray for them, show them scripture, explain to them what it means to be a Christian. Then let upstairs do the rest. That's sort of what I meant (co-workers with Christ).

"For we are co-workers in God's service; you are God's field, God's building." (1 Corinthians 3:9)

Hamster, my point is that WE don't save anyone. And we individually don't put murderers to death - SOCIETY does. So, being for the death penalty doesn't mean we don't or can't love a murderer. The issue of their punishment is separate from loving them or witnessing to them. God allows consequences here and now - and He even instructed us to institute certain consequences. And the death penalty is one of them. No, it probably doesn't deter most people so twisted that they plot a murder. But as for those before they have made the decision to pursue a murder, it just might make many of those people think.

Other things to think about:

Is it not cruel to lock a man in a cage most of the day - and for the rest of his life? Most prisions don't do that except for really dangerous people. So, in a given maximum security prison, many murderers are in common areas with other prisoners serving time for similar and even lesser crimes. This means that locking a murderer up often gives him an opportunity to murder again. It means that guards and administration must be put at risk by dealing with dangerous people who have already killed at least once.

Philip wrote: ↑Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:15 pm ............... So, being for the death penalty doesn't mean we don't or can't love a murderer. The issue of their punishment is separate from loving them or witnessing to them.

So are you saying that we can love someone and execute them at the same time ?

"Now Mr Bundy, while I flick this switch, I just want you to know ... I love you !. Click.....bzzzzzzzzz.....sizzle....sizzle. I really, really do love you !. Let me turn up the current. Mr Bundy, you're starting to smell like pork chops.....but I love you ! ......sizzle.......sizzle. Mr Bundy, you're on fire ! you're burning to death.......But I love you and I am going to pray for you !"

True Love

I think that sounds a tad brutal Philip........Brutal !

LittleHamster wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:20 am

Philip wrote: ↑Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:15 pm ............... So, being for the death penalty doesn't mean we don't or can't love a murderer. The issue of their punishment is separate from loving them or witnessing to them.

So are you saying that we can love someone and execute them at the same time ?

"Now Mr Bundy, while I flick this switch, I just want you to know ... I love you !. Click.....bzzzzzzzzz.....sizzle....sizzle. I really, really do love you !. Let me turn up the current. Mr Bundy, you're starting to smell like pork chops.....but I love you ! ......sizzle.......sizzle. Mr Bundy, you're on fire ! you're burning to death.......But I love you and I am going to pray for you !"

True Love

I think that sounds a tad brutal Philip........Brutal !

Since when will you or I ever have the authority to kill someone???!!! Only society via the law and it's officials can implement such. Sure, I can show love to a condemned man. But WHY are they condemned? Because you or I condemned them? NO - they condemned themselves by doing a crime that already had a sentence of death. If, facing death, a condemned man comes to faith - fantastic. And that might be what it takes for some. But from God's standpoint, the unsaved man who dies in his sleep at 100 is to be greatly pitied in contrast to the saved but executed killer who will wake up in the arms of the Lord.

What about Mr. Bundy's victims' family members? Would they not see his execution as just? One can see execution as just but also love the condemned. God does. Note, this is not like some ceremonial law that dictated death for murderers. And it's a law that comes from God's Holy Character - He saw this as righteous to do. Are you trying to say God's instructions in this matter were or are immoral? Surely not?

Ahhh Philip (sigh), someone here in this forum is implying that I'm a "Homo Pansyis" because I don't like executions !!! Guess I am being compelled to respond to your last post then.....so we can find the truth !

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:40 pm Since when will you or I ever have the authority to kill someone???!!!

Authority to kill is given to individuals by most governments. Whether it's an executioner or an agent. "Mr Bond, I believe you have a License to kill ?" . So what ? Just because some government says you can kill and even murder does not make it right or just or even in-line with God's will. What if you're a dual citizen and one government says it's ok to kill/murder and the other says don't ?

Only society via the law and it's officials can implement such. Sure, I can show love to a condemned man. But WHY are they condemned? Because you or I condemned them? NO - they condemned themselves by doing a crime that already had a sentence of death. If, facing death, a condemned man comes to faith - fantastic. And that might be what it takes for some. But from God's standpoint, the unsaved man who dies in his sleep at 100 is to be greatly pitied in contrast to the saved but executed killer who will wake up in the arms of the Lord.

Different societies have different law's. In one country you can be executed for different reason's than you would in another country. Does that mean that because a government deems it 'just' to execute someone for a particular reason, makes it just in the eye's of God? Would you blindly accept everything the government dishes out as just? "Bend over GodandScience Member while we execute your family for those nasty posts" - your friendly, 'just' Government.

What about Mr. Bundy's victims' family members? Would they not see his execution as just? One can see execution as just but also love the condemned. God does. Note, this is not like some ceremonial law that dictated death for murderers. And it's a law that comes from God's Holy Character - He saw this as righteous to do. Are you trying to say God's instructions in this matter were or are immoral? Surely not?

Victim's family members also have varying views on justice. Views such as 'better to lock up a murderer indefinitely as a preferred method of punishment over execution'. Are you so hell-bent on revenge, that you would kill those that did you wrong? Are you saying that going against the teachings of God are ok when he spoke "Love your enemies"? and "Turn the other cheek"? Surely Not?

Hamster: Victim's family members also have varying views on justice. Views such as 'better to lock up a murderer indefinitely as a preferred method of punishment over execution'. Are you so hell-bent on revenge, that you would kill those that did you wrong? Are you saying that going against the teachings of God are ok when he spoke "Love your enemies"? and "Turn the other cheek"? Surely Not?

You failed to answer my queustion: As God has instructed for society to put a murderer to death, then is that instruction immoral? God, Who is the very standard of love we can't imagine, also has said murderers should die. So does that make Him unloving?

And if a person robs or assaults someone, is society supposed to merely turn "the other cheek" in love, or should we not lock them up? You fail to separate how we are to personally treat people and how society is supposed to deal with criminals.

Good post(s) Phillip ! For me, it still sounds a bit old testamenty though (and a tad brutal !) I believe Jesus changed the way we see things and act on old testament law, even though he stated he came to fulfill the law, the way we view things are now different. It seems we can go around in circles with these arguments for ever and regurgitate what's already posted on the internet. I'm drawing up my 'for-and-against' picture of the death penalty and I will post a picture of it here very soon....

* Here are the main five reasons to oppose capital punishment:
1. Most attempts to make a biblical case for the support of capital punishment are arguments primarily based on Old Testament law, and that’s a poor way to do Christian theology.
2. Jesus overturned the Old Testament law that allowed retributive violence.
3. During his ministry, Jesus publicly thwarted an execution.
4. Jesus teaches that it is better to show mercy and compassion than to obey the law.
5. The application of the death penalty in America is unjustly used and applied.
(Detailed explanations here...https://sojo.net/articles/5-reasons-why ... th-penalty)

* More arguments (for and against)...
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ty/361649/
https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2011/ ... unishment/
http://theconversation.com/is-the-death ... tian-76687
https://www.christianitytoday.com/iyf/a ... nalty.html

Fwiw,

The death penalty had Christ killed. And that was a case of someone innocent being killed.

RickD wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:55 pm Fwiw,

The death penalty had Christ killed. And that was a case of someone innocent being killed.

Hey, that was God sacrificing himself. Don't suppose anyone here wants to have a go ?
(sorry, couldn't resist)

edit: But would you view it as a 'just' execution ?

We had a case here (a few days ago) where a young girl was tortured and then killed, then stuffed in a barrel in the car boot. The siege just ended yesterday, the guy was charged with murder + add 16 other charges.

Horrible stuff. I think I agree with one of Philips points.

Apostle Paul, Acts 25: "If then I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death"

Romans 13: "Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer."

Testimony of the thief on the cross / Luke 23: “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds"

Note, the New Testament says we are to be subject to the laws of he land, that God uses authorities to punish (as authority "does not bear the sword in vain" - what might THAT mean??? Paul asserts that there ARE punishments for those deserving death and that he would gladly submit his life it he were to transgress one of them. The thief on the cross contrasts the innocence of Jesus and that He did not deserve death, with the fact that he and the other thief deserved their fates. And the lady caught in adultery had not taken a human life!

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:45 pm Apostle Paul, Acts 25: "If then I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death"

Romans 13: "Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer."

Testimony of the thief on the cross / Luke 23: “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds"

Note, the New Testament says we are to be subject to the laws of he land, that God uses authorities to punish (as authority "does not bear the sword in vain" - what might THAT mean??? Paul asserts that there ARE punishments for those deserving death and that he would gladly submit his life it he were to transgress one of them. The thief on the cross contrasts the innocence of Jesus and that He did not deserve death, with the fact that he and the other thief deserved their fates. And the lady caught in adultery had not taken a human life!

Note that, as well as the adulteress, the thieves on the cross did not take anyone's life either. They probably did not deserve their fates. Good that one of them repented at the last minute.

But the thieves were not being judged by Jesus, but by Rome.

BTW, and just for interest, the adulteri passage is not found in the oldest manuscripts. Doesn't mean it's not authentic, but just to note.

LittleHamster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:05 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:55 pm Fwiw,

The death penalty had Christ killed. And that was a case of someone innocent being killed.

Hey, that was God sacrificing himself. Don't suppose anyone here wants to have a go ?
(sorry, couldn't resist)

edit: But would you view it as a 'just' execution ?

To be particular, someone giving up (sacrificing) their life isn't the same as killing (sacrificing) themselves. But otherwise, I hear what you're saying.

Capital punishing is a just penalty in life-for-life. Whether punishments can be appropriately measured out is another thing. I'd add that Christian soteriology can't be applied to social law, they're two different things. As for governing of a society, I don't have much faith in humanity, yet whatever restrains evil while increasing the good ought to be endorsed.