Evidence for God from Science

There are all kinds of groups of people and in massive numbers that believe things we individually disagree with - or are offended by. The question of banning people right's to live out there beliefs wherever no true harm is done - really, where do you stop that? With Christians? Muslims? Hindus? Real freedom means we'll have to be reasonably tolerant so that one can practice their own beliefs in freedom. Crap like cakes and bakeries - that is so irrelevant compared to the danger of the state saying no one has a right to live out their beliefs doing so happens to be offensive to someone. This is the same mentality that was used in the past to marginalize the rights of all kinds of minorities by those in power. And China is simply taking this mentality to a whole other level! But isn't it strange how some are so incensed that someone's practices have offended THEM, but they don't care one whit if THEIR practices are likewise offensive to whomever.

The state SHOULD remain neutral - as when it begins to pick winners and losers, it often leads to great repression and chaos. Great power in key hands will almost always lead to those with such power to push an agenda. And thus, the genius of our constitution has been to balance these things - not perfectly, but better than any system, king or dictator man has ever had.

What about Judaism, Islam and Budissm ?

I am curious if this is only targeting Christianity ..

It's because the Chinese leadership sees Christianity as a threat to the state's agenda.

Blessed wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:39 pm What about Judaism, Islam and Budissm ?

I am curious if this is only targeting Christianity ..

China is a totalitarian state, and any group seen as a threat to the authority of the ruling party gets hammered.

In recent years Chinese Uighur Muslims and Christians have been persecuted. The Chinese have also done their best to eradicate Falun Gong practitioners, tens of thousands of whom have been locked in reeducation camps, tortured, and (allegedly) murdered and carved up to supply the Chinese organ transplant market. And of course there's the continuing occupation of Buddhist Tibet and the Chinese interference in their religion.

Chinese Jews seem to be doing okay, probably because there are very, very few of them and they don't recruit.

So no, it's not just Christians or specifically Christians getting persecuted, it's any group with a competing worldview or philosophy and potential to challenge the status quo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong

https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliviaenos ... 49536f3b8c

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/a ... unities/CN

From what I understand it is mainly Protestants that are being targeted when it comes to Christains as I think China has reached some kind of agreement with Rome. Never made a bookmark for it so don't have a link.

There were negotiations underway between the Vatican and the Chinese over recognition of Chinese government appointed bishops, and back in March the Vatican was apparently planning to recognize them. Oddly, I can't find anything about it after March 13, so I don't know where things ended up. I'll look more later.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:08 pm What you consider "liberal" is a guise given any liberty issues doesn't matter when it pertains to Christians. It seems to me that you've always tended to side against certain reported events to do with Christians. Take, for example, the Christian cake maker, and various other instances pertaining to Christians that have been presented on this board -- you always appear to the be Christian objector or antagonist.

Show me an example of a Christian being denied the right to do something other than discriminate against his neighbors and I'll agree with you that it's wrong. But that doesn't tend to happen in the United States, and when it does the situation is immediately addressed in the face of massive, howling outrage.

In the instances where I side against Christians there are always two sides, and the Christian is always saying that his faith trumps some other person's right to life a life free of discrimination. If gay people have to check up on the religious views of everyone they want to do business with then they're not experiencing the same economic freedom as the rest of us. Imagine, K, if you were planning a wedding and you knew that every time you approached a florist, caterer, baker, DJ, and so on there was a chance that that person would refuse to serve you because you were a Christian. That's what gay people have to deal with, and it's something that has never, ever been an issue for straight, White Christians in the US. Ever. Period. They've only ever done it to others. I think that's wrong. I think that all citizens should be treated equally under the law. Allowing religious groups to engage in discriminatory business practices is wrong.

Show me a Christian pastor being forced to marry a gay couple and I'll agree that that's not okay. That's a religious matter, and it's none of the State's concern. But you can't show me that because it doesn't happen. Christians in the US are not being persecuted. They're not dealing with any of the things that Christians are struggling against in China, or the Middle East, or that they had to face in Soviet Russia. Having your church closed, your pastor arrested, your kids kicked out of school, and your Bibles taken and burned is persecution. Being told that you must adhere to local zoning laws or fire codes or treat all of your customers equally is not.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:08 pmWhat idealogy feeds that? It would be too simplistic to just lay it at the feet of Atheism. What is it you see in opposition to your beliefs, your political positions, that may provide insight into the ideologies that feeds your own positions. What is "right-wing" and what is "left-wing"? What are the ideologies that underpin and feed each side? It is complex.

For me it's my belief that "all men are created equal" means that we all have the same rights, but that our rights don't extend to the right to do others harm. When you deny someone a service because of who they are you do them harm. You make them second class citizens. That's wrong.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:08 pmPeterson would lay certain "leftist" extremities at the feet of post-modern philosophy, Marxist ideology, identity politics... Somewhere in that mouthful of words, I think is truth, but things would need much unpacking.

I'm not really interested in "leftist extremities." They're all fringe beliefs that wouldn't see the light of day were it not for right wing pundits rehashing them to use as foils. The mainstream American left is liberal on social issues, but pretty centrist on economic policy. They seem further left than they are because the right has moved so far right in recent years, and they've done a decent job dragging the whole spectrum with them. The idea that people like Obama and the Clintons were socialists is ludicrous. The ACA originated with the Heritage Foundation and the GOP, and mainstream Dems are as tight with Wall Street and the banks as anybody in the Republican Party.

Regarding "identity politics," I'm tired of seeing that phenomenon described as a left wing strategy. Donald Trump ran his entire campaign on White fear and resentment. He's the poster child for identity politics. Laura Ingram's recent rant about immigrants changing the fabric of America was a textbook example of identity politics. It's obnoxiously Orwellian to argue that the US has descended into tribalism because the left is engaged in identity politics, while pretending that it hasn't been a bread and butter conservative strategy since before the Civil War.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:24 pm Further, is B.W.'s statement really that far off the truth Ed?

Yes.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:08 pmConsider the challenge that gets made that the Bible contains "hate speech". What of the following articles?

Those events took place in the UK. I don't know much about the law over there. I do find Franklin Graham calling on Christians to boycott businesses that "serve the gay agenda" to be hateful. I'm not surprised that his words resulted in British citizens asking their government to boycott Franklin Graham. Seems like the same thing, really, so I guess turn about is fair play.

I'm not in favor of banning the Bible because it contains hate speech. That just doesn't make any sense to me. The only possible result of such a policy is more anger and hate. It makes more sense for people who are offended to either ignore Christianity or to opt for a church that disregards OT teaching on homosexuality. There are plenty out there.

By the way, I thought that the OT was no longer in vogue. I still don't understand how it is that Christians can justify picking and choosing which parts to follow and which to ignore.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:08 pmWhat side do you fall down on or are you sympathetic to? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't tend towards the side of Christians in these stories, or despite your lack of belief in God/Christ, advocating true liberal values when it comes to Christianity. Rather based upon my experiences with you on this board, I'd expect your sympathies would be more against Christians.

Seems to me that if Franklin Graham is going to go to the UK and tell people to engage in behavior that harms British citizens - such as pressuring businesses to rebuke homosexuals and fight their "agenda" - then he should expect some blowback and not whine about it. As far as whether or not he's allowed back in the UK, I honestly don't care.

If I missed something important in the articles feel free to point it out. I read them a couple days ago and I don't recall all of the details.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:08 pmConsider that in the Bible, God condones stoning homosexuals in Israel's law. E.g., Leviticus 20:13 reads, "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

That's the OT. I thought the OT no longer counted. Except that sometimes it does. Go figure. And sure, I find it detestable. There's a lot in the OT that's pretty vile when seen through a modern lens.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:08 pmI have no doubt you'd consider this as "hateful" -- and indeed it would be hateful if practiced -- I'm sure you'd heavily dislike children being taught that God considers the act of engaging in sex with the same sex abominable. Ergo, I'm sure at least specific parts of the Bible, you probably wouldn't much care if such were banned -- and in fact you'd probably feel some delight if it were banned.

You're right. I think that teaching kids that homosexuality is abominable is itself abominable.

But no, it wouldn't delight me if it were banned. I like living in a free society, and if we start banning speech that we find detestable we soon find ourselves in dangerous territory. That being the case, I'll simply hope that the trend toward a more open society - one in which we accept people's individual differences - will continue and that in 50 years the majority of Western Christians will be embarrassed by their grandparent's outdated ideas and irrational bigotry.

Philip wrote: ↑Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:04 am It's because the Chinese leadership sees Christianity as a threat to the state's agenda.

Why? When the flaws inherent in Christianity make it ideal for tyranny. Namely turning the other cheek and paying taxes.

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:17 am

Blessed wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:39 pm What about Judaism, Islam and Budissm ?

I am curious if this is only targeting Christianity ..

China is a totalitarian state, and any group seen as a threat to the authority of the ruling party gets hammered.

In recent years Chinese Uighur Muslims and Christians have been persecuted. The Chinese have also done their best to eradicate Falun Gong practitioners, tens of thousands of whom have been locked in reeducation camps, tortured, and (allegedly) murdered and carved up to supply the Chinese organ transplant market. And of course there's the continuing occupation of Buddhist Tibet and the Chinese interference in their religion.

Chinese Jews seem to be doing okay, probably because there are very, very few of them and they don't recruit.

So no, it's not just Christians or specifically Christians getting persecuted, it's any group with a competing worldview or philosophy and potential to challenge the status quo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong

https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliviaenos ... 49536f3b8c

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/a ... unities/CN

Christianity advocates submission to governmental authority, turning the other cheek, and rendering unto Cesar what (supposidly) is Cesar's.

This is good for Tyranny. So how is Christianity a "threat"? It's not.

Apparently the Chinese government is somewhat okay with Chinese Catholicism run by government-appointed bishops, since they toe the party line and say things like "we, as citizens of the country, should first be a citizen and then have religion and beliefs." A church run by government appointees is still a potential threat - consider Thomas à Becket - but less of one.

The bulk of the persecution is falling on "underground" churches with no government affiliation. As to why President Xi sees a threat, I assume that he's aware of the long history of popular new ideas pressuring and sometimes supplanting the status quo. Beyond that, Christianity is hardly the same everywhere you go. Consider Latin American liberation theology, for example, which is more about social justice than rendering unto Caesar. The very fact that an underground church exists is threatening. People who join underground movements are clearly risk-takers, willing to lose their possessions, freedom, and even lives for what they regard as a higher calling. The emergence of a massive movement energized by sacrifice and oppression and answering to a power other than the Party is clearly a danger to any totalitarian government, so Xi is looking to get total control over the government-affiliated Christians and eradicate the rest.

RickD wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:29 am Crying wolf, and blabbering on about conspiracy against Christians, does nothing but hurt actual cases of religious discrimination.

Ok so in that case it seems it is false.

Didn't know I had to post a statement to such an effect every time I am shown to be wrong about something. I hope you and others do the same

I thought the evidence spoke for itself.

It gets worse.
The article makes a good point, that people in China might be experiencing just some of what the tribulation might be like. I think the tribulation will be a lot worse but they have a taste.

CHINESE GOVERNMENT BEGINS ‘SINICIZATION’ CAMPAIGN OF BURNING BIBLES, FORCING CHRISTIANS TO SIGN PAPERS RENOUNCING THEIR FAITH

The reason Chinese officials are burning Bibles (and deleting Bible downloads from the Chinese internet) is that only the government-approved version of the Bible is allowed. In one of the more grotesque abuses of the “Sinicization” program, images of Jesus have been replaced with photos of Xi. In August, Chinese police raided a Christian summer camp, sent the two parish priests who organized the event packing, and replaced them with “state-approved priests.”

The Chinese government is destroying crosses, burning bibles, closing churches and forcing Christian believers to sign papers renouncing their faith as the crackdown on religious congregations in Beijing and several provinces intensifies.

e are not now in the time of Jacob’s trouble, the great tribulation, nor shall the Church ever be, but Christians in China are getting a taste of what Tribulation Saints after the Rapture of the Church will experience. The Chinese government is burning bibles, preventing Internet bible downloads, and closing and burning churches. And in a chilling throwback to what the Catholic Church did to believers in the Spanish Inquisition, the government is forcing Chinese Christians to sign documents renouncing their faith in Jesus Christ, or pay the price.

Please pray for all Christians around the world experiencing persecution, but especially for the Christians in China who are at this moment paying a huge price, and for some the ultimate price, for their faith in Jesus Christ.

“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.” Matthew 24:9 (KJV)

FROM FOX NEWS: The suppression of religious freedoms is part of an official campaign to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the atheist Communist party and removing any potential challenge to the party’s power in the country. “The international community should be alarmed and outraged for this blatant violation of freedom of religion and belief,” Bob Fu of China Aid, said.

More

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:27 am

RickD wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:29 am Crying wolf, and blabbering on about conspiracy against Christians, does nothing but hurt actual cases of religious discrimination.

Ok so in that case it seems it is false.

Didn't know I had to post a statement to such an effect every time I am shown to be wrong about something. I hope you and others do the same

I thought the evidence spoke for itself.

It does Stu - you are speaking to persons brainwashed by Cultural Marxism so bad that they can't see themselves supporting the eradication of the Christian people in his or her own country under the the pretext of tolerant fairness of social justice that promotes disease born sex with anything and anybody, deviant behaviors the destroy the family, the brings forth Chaos to create order ... destroy the system using any lie or pretex.

Funny how people take the side of Communism and the long winded justifications - isn't Stu???
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B. W. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:21 amIt does Stu - you are speaking to persons brainwashed by Cultural Marxism so bad that they can't see themselves supporting the eradication of the Christian people in his or her own country under the the pretext of tolerant fairness of social justice that promotes disease born sex with anything and anybody, deviant behaviors the destroy the family, the brings forth Chaos to create order ... destroy the system using any lie or pretex.

I'm not sure how to respond to this.

I said that I'd treat you with courtesy and respect, regardless of how I felt about your arguments. You said you'd do the same. This post leads me to believe that we don't share common definitions for those words. Where I come from, saying that a person is "brainwashed by Cultural Marxism" is a personal attack. The implication is that my thoughts aren't my own, because I'm an easily manipulated, useful idiot.

Beyond that, "Cultural Marxism" is a right-wing, White Nationalist reboot of the term Cultural Bolshevism," which was a propaganda term invented by the Nazis in the mid 1930's. It was an anti-Semitic smear back then, and that's how it's most frequently used today. It's also part of a conspiracy theory based on the claim that the Frankfurt School - an obscure group of intellectuals known only to philosophy majors and right-wing conspiracy theorists - laid out the groundwork to destroying all that is right and good. So again, saying that I'm aligned with the Cultural Marxists, whether deliberately or as their ignorant stooge, is the equivalent of saying that I want to destroy America. Where I come from that's also an insult.

Apparently I'm also on board with "disease born sex with anything and anybody." That sounds like you're combining a smear against homosexuality with a slippery slope argument. The logical conclusion is that you think that I, either working in league with other evil Cultural Marxists or unknowingly as their useful idiot, am promoting an America where incest, bestiality, polygamy, and pedophilia are both legal and socially acceptable. I think that most folks would find that insulting.

And finally, I'm so committed to the destruction of all that is good in America that I'd use any lie or pretense to achieve my fiendish goals. So now my support of gay marriage, for example, which I see as a logical extension of civil rights to a previously excluded minority, is actually a cynical attempt to weaken the fabric of America in preparation for eventual communism. So I don't truly give a damn about civil rights, justice, or equality. Those are just lies I tell to hide my true goal - the complete destruction of the institution of marriage. That's yet another insult.

I'm hoping that you'll consider my words and recognize that your diatribes against liberals and their desire to destroy America are precisely the same as the insults that I've directed at you in the past. In a way theyre actually worse, since your insults are directed against a significant chunk of the American population, while mine were aimed specifically at you. Other than that there is literally no difference.

B. W. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:21 amFunny how people take the side of Communism and the long winded justifications - isn't Stu???

Who's taking the side of communism? I honestly can't think of anybody doing that generally, much less specifically rooting for the Chinese government to persecute Chinese Christians. Can you support that claim?

B. W. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:21 am

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:27 am

RickD wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:29 am Crying wolf, and blabbering on about conspiracy against Christians, does nothing but hurt actual cases of religious discrimination.

Ok so in that case it seems it is false.

Didn't know I had to post a statement to such an effect every time I am shown to be wrong about something. I hope you and others do the same

I thought the evidence spoke for itself.

It does Stu - you are speaking to persons brainwashed by Cultural Marxism so bad that they can't see themselves supporting the eradication of the Christian people in his or her own country under the the pretext of tolerant fairness of social justice that promotes disease born sex with anything and anybody, deviant behaviors the destroy the family, the brings forth Chaos to create order ... destroy the system using any lie or pretex.

Funny how people take the side of Communism and the long winded justifications - isn't Stu???
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You misrepresent the context of what Stu said. He said the he thought the evidence spoke for itself, referring to the fact that the evidence proved Stu was wrong. There was no govt conspiracy to stop bible studies.

Again, crying wolf every time something may seem like a Christian being persecuted, does nothing but make people ignore us, if and when any real persecution happens.