Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:30 am**

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:25 am We can never judge a person's faith.
We can, however, judge their actions and the consequences of their action.
Also, God doesn't grant ANYONE, ANYTHING other than the gift of Grace.
People get into positions of power by what they do and who they know, not be the Grace of God.

Judging McCain's actions is easy because he was a prominent political fixture. It's a combination of what they do and who they know along with something else. Something related to the battle between good and evil on this planet and a "question" or some kind of a chess match or contest between God and Satan that plays a part. I found this scripture John 19:10-12

"Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. 12And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar."

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:35 am**

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:33 am
Paul: People get into positions of power by what they do and who they know, not be the Grace of God.
Not quite sure what you mean by that? But the Bible tells us it is He who installs people into positions of power.

As for Blessed hatred of McCain: IF we see a person leading a murderous unGodly life AFTER supposedly or claiming they have come to faith in Christ, this would reveal almost certainly they were never saved to begin with. But the idea that a murderer or anyone with a hideous past cannot be forgiven by God, or that faith in Christ, redemption and salvation are not available to them - this is an unScriptural belief.

Unscriptural belief huh? Well I have a problem with the idea of a lifelong evil person repenting on their deathbed and skipping the line with a get into heaven free card.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:38 am**

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:36 am
Paul: So God decides who will be president of the USA?
Yes!

Paul: So much for free will...
Wrong! God orchestrates events per His will - AND He uses humans' freely chosen desires and actions to do so. God, in His sovereignty, has both given us free will and yet it has parameters - and the free will of man can be used as a tool for God's purposes.

Paul: Very slippery slope we are on when we state that God is the one the puts people in position of power. God put Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc, in power?
God USES the free will decisions of men to guide history and events.

Daniel 2:21: "It is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding."

Daniel 2:37-38: "You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold."

Daniel 4:17: ""This sentence is by the decree of the angelic watchers And the decision is a command of the holy ones, In order that the living may know That the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind, And bestows it on whom He wishes And sets over it the lowliest of men."

Isaiah 45:1: "Thus says the LORD to Cyrus His anointed, Whom I have taken by the right hand, To subdue nations before him And to loose the loins of kings; To open doors before him so that gates will not be shut" (Note, Cyrus was an evil tyrant!)

Romans 13:1: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."

Joseph told his brothers, "20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Jesus told Pilate (John 19:11: "11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above."

Proverbs 8:15: "By me kings reign…"

Acts 13:22: "Then God removed Saul and made David their king…"

Psalms 75: 6-7: "No one … can exalt themselves. It is God who judges: He brings one down, he exalts another."

Daniel 4:17: "…the Most High has power over human kingdoms. He gives them to whomever he wishes."

Proverbs 8:15: "By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;"

The Bible not only teaches that God appoints our leaders, it also says he controls their behavior:

Proverbs 21:1: "The king’s heart is like a stream of water directed by the LORD; he guides it wherever he pleases.

Exodus 9:12: "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron…"
(Note that God uses the desire of the evil pharaoh - already hard against Israel, God "hardENED" his resolve against her! He doesn't make a make ANYONE desire to do evil - as evil people's desires are already there - God merely knows this, and influences and uses it for His glory and the far GREATER good of His eternal purposes.

History is HIS Story - it's why He shuffled and placed people across time and place, according to His purposes - this was not done haphazardly or purposeless. It's one reason how He has always known all outcomes and specifics - as He both orchestrates them, using our free will, but He actually perfectly SEES them before they happen - and ALWAYS has!

Yes but doesn't Satan have a hand in any of this? Otherwise how else could McCain have been elected?

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:51 am**

LittleHamster wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:50 am Since I'm not an American, can someone give me some specific examples of what he has done that could be regarded as being really evil. I looked on youtube and they all say nasty stuff about him too but they give no examples.

Look at his voting record. He voted for every war the Neocons wanted and called for new wars against other countries most recently Russia. He championed Bush's Patriot Act. Obama's Patriot Act. He supported torture. The guy was tortured in a Vietnam prison camp - then he goes and votes for torture. It's too much to list. Just look at his voting record and all the things he proposed, the people he was close to, all his sins. You could say the man was almost as evil as George Bush Jr ... but Bush gets a pass because he was too stupid to know any better. McCain wasn't too stupid to know any better.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:02 pm**

Blessed: "Unscriptural belief huh? Well I have a problem with the idea of an evil person repenting on their deathbed and skipping the line with a get into heaven free card."

Well, JESUS didn't - as God doesn't think like a man does! Ever remember the saved thief on the cross by Jesus?

At first, both thieves mock Jesus, even knowing they would soon be dead.

Matthew 44: " 44 And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way. "

Mark 32:"Those who were crucified with him also reviled him."

But something changed, over those excruciating hours of agony. One continued in his unbelief and mocking of Jesus - the other, while admitting that he deserved his punishment, had also realized that Jesus must be Who He had claimed to be.

Luke 23: "39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40 But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."

And then He calls upon the Lord:

"42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

That thief - yes, after having lived a despicable life of crime (which he admitted to) and being punished with an agonizing death (which he also admitted he deserved), there in his last hours on earth, right beside Jesus, acknowledged his sin, believes Jesus is God / The Messiah (referring to Jesus ownership of "your kingdom"), and expresses his desire to be part of Jesus' Kingdom.

And so what does Jesus do, Blessed? Does he say, like you apparently would, "Think of all the old people who have lived righteous, pious, Godly lives, since their youth, and you have a last minute change of heart after a lifetime of robbing and thieving, and you expect salvation - HA! Too late you pathetic, suffering worm!"

Um, I'm pretty sure that's not what Jesus said.

Instead, Jesus responded with those beautiful words: " "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Did the thief deserve it? Course not! Do WE - not a chance! We are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ - just like that thief was!

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:52 pm**

The thief is different .. each person is different .. nobody shames a starving man for stealing bread .. perhaps the thief was not that bad given his life circumstances strengths and weaknesses ..

The thief, as well as most people, are worlds apart from people like McCain. And Stalin, and Pol Pot, and Anton Lavey, and Richard Pearl, and general Wesley Clark, and Robert Mugabe, and Nelson Mandela, and on and on .. these people are in a league of there own. It stands to reason at some point God's law puts a limit on forgiveness.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:04 pm**

I should've followed the Presidents example here .. If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. His silence speaks the loudest ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL6sMfqz6wQ

You have Paid Deep State Propaganda CNN vouching for McCain. You can also see all the far left websites vouching for McCain. The Guardian, the Economist, the Atlantic - all vouching for this Republican Neocon war monger.

Trumps comments on McCain here on twitter

Notice he said THE FAMILY of McCain. And after being asked to clarify he bombards his Twitter account with business as usual. This is like when I went to see Trump before the Real Estate crash and he refused to tell people the Real Estate market was about to crash when it did shortly after. It was what he didn't say that I noticed.

Best of all .. outside my balcony all the surrounding high rises .. NONE have the American flag at half mast. Barbara Bush got half mast .. . John McCain doesn't.

He's getting all his legacy epitaphs from the controlled mainstream media. You Tube, Google. CNN, ABC, NBC and all the rest. I wonder if they will do this for good guys like Mike Gravel, Ralph Nader, Dennis Kucinich or Ron Paul. Nope. They will pass with hardly a mention.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:24 pm**

Blessed,

Matthew 18:21-22: Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times."

Consider: https://www.gotquestions.org/forgive-same-sin.html

The Apostle Paul, before His conversion, was a zealot and a religious terrorist who had people dragged from homes and imprisoned for perceived transgressions - he was determined to eradicate Christians. Paul says in Acts 22:4 that he approved of the murder and stoning of Stephen - watching and holding the coats of those who carried out this despicable act. He was such a ruthless person, testifying, "I persecuted this Way (Christians) to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, 5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness." He had been such an evil man that upon his conversion the Christians still greatly feared him, didn't trust him. And yet Paul was not only forgiven, but He was the one God chose to write the bulk of the New Testament and to evangelize the Gentiles. So, it's not a matter of whether God can't forgive the perpetrators of even great evils; It's a matter of whether the evil person turns to God in repentance and seeks His forgiveness!

In fact, Jesus Himself said that "ALL" sins can be forgiven except one - blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (can't be a sin today), was specific to the Pharisees watching Jesus do incredible miracles by the Holy Spirit and yet they claimed his power came from Satan. (https://www.gotquestions.org/unpardonable-sin.html): "28 "Truly, I say to you, ALL sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" (Mark 3).

The reason people tend to think those with far worse kinds of sins cannot be saved vs. also believing those with lesser sins can be is because they think God provides salvation based upon human works or merit. He does not!

Further, consider: https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-110 ... ke-2339-43

A wonderful outtake of the above link, based upon Scripture:

"If you have lived a good life, you are not an inch closer to heaven than the thief who has lived a wicked life. In fact, you may have more trouble trusting in Christ alone, because your good works fill you with pride and self-righteousness. God’s salvation is always given in one way and one way only: by His free grace, totally apart from any human merit. That way, no one can boast.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:44 pm**

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:24 pm Blessed,

Matthew 18:21-22: Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times."

Consider: https://www.gotquestions.org/forgive-same-sin.html

The Apostle Paul, before His conversion, was a zealot and a religious terrorist who had people dragged from homes and imprisoned for perceived transgressions - he was determined to eradicate Christians. Paul says in Acts 22:4 that he approved of the murder and stoning of Stephen - watching and holding the coats of those who carried out this despicable act. He was such a ruthless person, testifying, "I persecuted this Way (Christians) to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, 5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness." He had been such an evil man that upon his conversion the Christians still greatly feared him, didn't trust him. And yet Paul was not only forgiven, but He was the one God chose to write the bulk of the New Testament and to evangelize the Gentiles. So, it's not a matter of whether God can't forgive the perpetrators of even great evils; It's a matter of whether the evil person turns to God in repentance and seeks His forgiveness!

In fact, Jesus Himself said that "ALL" sins can be forgiven except one - blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (can't be a sin today), was specific to the Pharisees watching Jesus do incredible miracles by the Holy Spirit and yet they claimed his power came from Satan. (https://www.gotquestions.org/unpardonable-sin.html): "28 "Truly, I say to you, ALL sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" (Mark 3).

The reason people tend to think those with far worse kinds of sins cannot be saved vs. also believing those with lesser sins can be is because they think God provides salvation based upon human works or merit. He does not!

Further, consider: https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-110 ... ke-2339-43

A wonderful outtake of the above link, based upon Scripture:

"If you have lived a good life, you are not an inch closer to heaven than the thief who has lived a wicked life. In fact, you may have more trouble trusting in Christ alone, because your good works fill you with pride and self-righteousness. God’s salvation is always given in one way and one way only: by His free grace, totally apart from any human merit. That way, no one can boast.

Are you actually trying to excuse John McCains wicked deeds? Job was an upright man. God MUST consider works and merit. It's just common sense. Yes people who lead good lives are walking with God and doing his will as Jesus himself said something to the effect of - only those who do the will of my Father go to heaven. Merit is worth something. Living in sin or being evil and repenting on your death bed cannot possibly be equivelant to a good person .. a faithful servant dong God's will on earth.

As I said different times, different people, different situations, each person is unique, thier hands of cards and talents unique, so it stands to reason they will be judged unique by an all knowing God. The Apostle Paul is a completely unique situation loved and chosen by God in spite of his evil. His wickedness was apparantly forgiven. The scriptures say Exodus 33:19 God will have mercy on whom he has mercy and this is ultimate perogative. So even Marilyn Manson goes to heaven if it's God's will - but I would think this would be the exception to the rule.

In my opinion McCain doesn't even come close to the Apostle Paul but thats just my logic and feelings and emotions talking ..

Posted: **Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:29 am**

One of the issue that some people have with Christianity is that whole forgiveness thing, that a person "simply" as for forgiveness and they are "in".
Of course IF it was that easy then everyone would do it and we know THAT is not the case.

The act of repentance is followed by redemption and forgiveness is part of that process.

See, the thing is that I don't think that skeptics ( perhaps even some believers) know what this actually means ( and those that do know what it means are the ones that DON'T go through the process UNLESS they are truly repentant).

When we repent, when we are TRULY repentant and sorry for what we have done, it means that we ARE or are willing to, understand what we have done to others, to feel the full force of the pain and suffering we have caused others.
The process of redemption is that, the full realization of the gravity of our sins, the full weight of the pain and suffering we have caused others.
This is given ( by the Holy Spirit) to those that truly are repentant of their sins and ask forgiveness of Christ.
To do this early on in life ( before our death bed) means that we have time to repent and to redeem ourselves in the HERE and NOW. When we "wait" for the death bed, the process is, well, intense to say the least.

Death bead confessions are rare, and think about this:
People say they find it horrific that God can forgive a serial rapist on his death bed BUT for God to forgive the serial rapist it would mean that the rapist would have had to ask for forgiveness AND be repentant and that means that the HS would have put him through the process of realization AND experiencing of the pan and suffering of ALL he had done to EVERYONE he had done it to.
Think about that for a minute.
The kind of realization is 100, 1000 times more painful than all the years of prison.
A criminal does his time and is realized, repentant or not, back into society, he may not even care at all about what he did, maybe even HAPPY that he did it BUT he is free.
God;s judgment is far harsher than anything man can come up with and the redemption process, for more painful and horrific than any experience in jail.

Repentance and redemption is NOT a walk in the park BUT is the most intense and painful experience one can go through and NO ONE is getting off "easy".

There is a reason why those horrific people do NOT repent and a reason why, those that do, are forgiven by God.

Posted: **Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:35 am**

God USES the free will decisions of men to guide history and events

.

Not the same as God DECIDING for men, is it?

While God allows for men and all of creation to decide their path and to reap what they sow, God of course can and does use the free will of men to do HIS will.
Without suffering there can be no compassion.
Without injustice there can be ability to understand and crave justice.
Without evil, there is no way to understand and strive for Good.

God leads us with His will BUT the choice that are made are ours and ours alone.
The accountability for our choices are OURS and OURS ALONE.

Posted: **Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:17 am**

Blessed: Are you actually trying to excuse John McCains wicked deeds?

Of course not. What I am conveying has not one thing to do with McCain, other than, dispelling the notion that he couldn't be forgiven or is necessarily in hell. Because it depends upon whether he embraced the Lord in faith or not - maybe, maybe not. Because God's criteria for forgiving isn't dependent upon how much less sin one person has than another one.

Posted: **Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:32 pm**

Philip: God USES the free will decisions of men to guide history and events
Paul: Not the same as God DECIDING for men, is it?

The difference is that while God can influence aspects of a a person's freewill decisions, that does not change the intentions of a person that are already in place and evil (like how the personal resolve behind Pharaoh's already evil intentions were hardENed - God just channels freely made decisions to create OUTCOMES that He ultimately desires, all under God ultimately creating the greater good.

Paul: God leads us with His will BUT the choice that are made are ours and ours alone. The accountability for our choices are OURS and OURS ALONE.

True. We have our parameters, our decisions and actions (freely made), and God has sovereign and ultimate control over parameters and outcomes that we do not. Paul, I think we are on the same page but perhaps have been talking past each other per our individual intended meanings?

Posted: **Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:55 am**

Yeah, I think I have been defending free will a bit too much lately and am overly-sensitive to terminology.

Evidence for God from Science

The Faith of John McCain

Re: The Faith of John McCain

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Re: The Faith of John McCain