Evidence for God from Science

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:48 am If they believed that, why not say it?

DBowling wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:49 am I still don't see you referencing any Scriptures that mention the "Antichrist"

Stu wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:06 am Are you saying that the mark of the beast has already been and passed and that a period of time has past wherein no man could buy or sell without it?

Yes...
See... The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.

http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf

And that you would not go to heaven if you took the mark?

Whether or not a person goes to heaven has nothing to do with any physical mark.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Also, is the person who is associated with the number of the beast, 666, already been and come?

Yes...
See Chapter 3 - The Number of the Beast
from The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.

Stu wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:11 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:49 am I still don't see you referencing any Scriptures that mention the "Antichrist"

Stu wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:06 am Are you saying that the mark of the beast has already been and passed and that a period of time has past wherein no man could buy or sell without it?

Yes...
See... The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.

http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf

And that you would not go to heaven if you took the mark?

Whether or not a person goes to heaven has nothing to do with any physical mark.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Also, is the person who is associated with the number of the beast, 666, already been and come?

Yes...
See Chapter 3 - The Number of the Beast
from The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.

What?! I don't have the time to address everything but if you take the mark of the beast, there is no heaven for you...

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:10 am Sure, but what I mean is why didn't they make clear that they were referring to the last days as the last days of the old covenant and not the last days before judgment ?

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:44 am I tend to agree with you for various reasons BUT the argument that sometimes presents itself is that, typically, when second temple Jews ( not to mention OT prophets) spoke of the LAST DAYS it was NOT about the end of the old covenant.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:08 am But, doesn't Paul seem to believe that Jesus would come back in his lifetime?

DBowling wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:39 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:49 pm So you no longer believe the mark of the beast in the end times is part of the great tribulation prior to Christ's return and that there are really no prophecies or signs for us to look for to know approximately when the tribulation is here,the mark of the beast and when the coming of Christ will be?

Let me try to answer your questions one at a time...
1. Yes, I believe that the beast and the mark of the beast was part of the Great Tribulation.
See... The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.

http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf
2. Yes, I believe that the Great Tribulation of AD 66-70 took place prior to Christ's future return.
3. Yes, I believe that there were many signs that allowed people in AD 66-70 to know that the Great Tribulation was in fact taking place... as prophesied by Jesus, John, and even Daniel.
4. As I noted in my comments on the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gives specific signs and a time frame for the Great Tribulation. However Jesus says that his return would be sudden at some long time in the future, and no one knows when it would occur except the Father. So based on the explicit statements of Jesus I don't think we can know the timing (either precisely or approximately) of his return.

If so? It seems to me that you're focusing on just one part of the bible concerning the end-times while ignoring what prophets like Daniel and John in the Book of Revelation describe,as well as the many other prophets too.

Actually Daniel and Revelation contributed significantly to my realization that pre-trib pre-mil eschatology is contradicted by not only Jesus, but John and Daniel as well.
There is no amounted of tortured math that can get the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 to point to a 'Great Tribulation' that takes place 2000 years after the time of Christ. To do that, the margin of error in Daniel's prophecy has to exceed the complete duration of the 70 weeks itself.
In regards to Revelation, I believe John gives enough indicators in his prophecy to identify the Beast of Revelation with a fair level of confidence.
(see Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry).

So from my perspective the prophecies of Daniel and John are consistent with what Jesus teaches in the Olivet Discourse. And all three come into direct conflict with pre-trib pre mil eschatology.

It seems to me you're giving up on end-times bible prophecy and so you want to remove prophecies that are to be fulfilled just as many other prophecies were fulfilled to imply that we don't have any future prophecies to look for being fulfilled.

Based on what Jesus teaches, he could return at any time now. To me that's pretty exciting!
However Jesus says we don't know when he will return.
It could be tomorrow. It could be in another 2000 years. We just don't know.
That is why Jesus tells us to always remain ready for his return.

There is a lot of really exciting stuff still to come.
The return of Jesus.
The resurrection of the dead.
The final judgement.
The new heaven/new earth.

Just because Jesus tells us that we don't know when these things will happen, that doesn't somehow make them boring.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:39 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:49 pm So you no longer believe the mark of the beast in the end times is part of the great tribulation prior to Christ's return and that there are really no prophecies or signs for us to look for to know approximately when the tribulation is here,the mark of the beast and when the coming of Christ will be?

Let me try to answer your questions one at a time...
1. Yes, I believe that the beast and the mark of the beast was part of the Great Tribulation.
See... The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.

http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf
2. Yes, I believe that the Great Tribulation of AD 66-70 took place prior to Christ's future return.
3. Yes, I believe that there were many signs that allowed people in AD 66-70 to know that the Great Tribulation was in fact taking place... as prophesied by Jesus, John, and even Daniel.
4. As I noted in my comments on the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gives specific signs and a time frame for the Great Tribulation. However Jesus says that his return would be sudden at some long time in the future, and no one knows when it would occur except the Father. So based on the explicit statements of Jesus I don't think we can know the timing (either precisely or approximately) of his return.

If so? It seems to me that you're focusing on just one part of the bible concerning the end-times while ignoring what prophets like Daniel and John in the Book of Revelation describe,as well as the many other prophets too.

Actually Daniel and Revelation contributed significantly to my realization that pre-trib pre-mil eschatology is contradicted by not only Jesus, but John and Daniel as well.
There is no amounted of tortured math that can get the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 to point to a 'Great Tribulation' that takes place 2000 years after the time of Christ. To do that, the margin of error in Daniel's prophecy has to exceed the complete duration of the 70 weeks itself.
In regards to Revelation, I believe John gives enough indicators in his prophecy to identify the Beast of Revelation with a fair level of confidence.
(see Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry).

So from my perspective the prophecies of Daniel and John are consistent with what Jesus teaches in the Olivet Discourse. And all three come into direct conflict with pre-trib pre mil eschatology.

It seems to me you're giving up on end-times bible prophecy and so you want to remove prophecies that are to be fulfilled just as many other prophecies were fulfilled to imply that we don't have any future prophecies to look for being fulfilled.

Based on what Jesus teaches, he could return at any time now. To me that's pretty exciting!
However Jesus says we don't know when he will return.
It could be tomorrow. It could be in another 2000 years. We just don't know.
That is why Jesus tells us to always remain ready for his return.

There is a lot of really exciting stuff still to come.
The return of Jesus.
The resurrection of the dead.
The final judgement.
The new heaven/new earth.

Just because Jesus tells us that we don't know when these things will happen, that doesn't somehow make them boring.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:53 pm Can you explain when in AD66-70 The whole world rich and poor,free and bond recieved the mark of the beast in order to be able to buy and sell?And when people were beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast,when did Nero go into the Jewish temple stop animal sacrificing and declare he is God?

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:14 am Can't you just put into your own words what the book says. Can't you just answer abe's question. Do we really have to read the whole book just to have a few questions answered...

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.