Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote: ↑Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:44 amI was referring to The Hill, when I said centrist. The article is from The Hill. My point, was that I was trying to show that even if we don't use Trump's estimate, which many call inaccurately high, the cost of illegal immigration in the US is still much, much higher than the $5 billion that Trump wants.

Gotcha.

RickD wrote: ↑Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:44 amSo again I ask, is the cost of a border wall/fence worth it, in light of what it's already costing the American taxpayer?

Here's a response from a guy at the libertarian CATO Institute. He categorically eviscerates the FAIR study and finds that replacing FAIR's biased numbers with accurate numbers drops the total down from $116 billion to $3-15 billion. He then adds the following:

Based on the age of arrival and education, immigrants with less than a high school degree who entered before their 24th birthday pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits. Illegal immigrants are potentially even better for public budgets in the short run because their consumption of government benefits is more curtailed than their tax payments (including the incidence of taxation) due to their legal status. Illegal immigrants do not likely consume more in tax benefits than they pay in taxes but, if they do, the figure is small.

So what I'm getting from that is that we don't actually know that it's costing the American taxpayer anything, and it might even be a net gain. And in the case of the Dreamers it's definitely a net gain.

The Government shut down is not effecting you despite the MSM claiming it is.Please explain how the government shutdown has effected you personally.It is just fake news.It is only effecting a very small minoroty of people who work for the government,only 20% of the government is shut down.This is why Trump does not mind it being shut down it shows the MSM is lying about how it is effecting you,when it is'nt. Also Trump already signed it into law that the government workers will be paid for the time off.Despite DBowling and Ed's thoughts cause they don't like Trump he is winning this argument with the Democrats and he will come out victorious.

Also Trump renegotiated NAFTA and so Mexico is paying for the wall indirectly.And Trump always said it would be because of negotation in trade and it is that Mexico is paying for the wall,just as he said.Trump never said Mexico would pay for the wall directly but always said it would be through renegotiations in trade.It is also through negotiations that gas prices are below $2.00 a gallon also,lower than with Bush and Obama because they don't know how to negotiate and put America first when it comes to trade. They think like politicians while Trump thinks like a businessman thinking of ways America can make money.

Trump is keeping his promises that he ran on and he is putting America first in trade.China is hurting now because Trump puts America first in trade and no war like the MSM claimed.China is helping us establish peace with North Korea too,proving the MSM wrong about trade wars.On the one hand they claim it will cause trade wars then claim it won't work,they talk out of both sides of their mouth. It is fake news and they are stuck in the old ways of doing things that do not work.Yet they try to convince us the old ways of doing things works when we know it does'nt work. It is propaganda. We know the whole US Government was funded by tariffs before we had an income tax.They have amnesia.

Having read your comments closely I have decided to limit my reply to the one area where I think I have any chance of being a positive influence - spelling/grammar.

In a contraction you put the apostrophe in the spot where the missing letter(s) would ordinarily go. For example:

does + not = doesn't (the apostrophe replaces the "o" in "not."

is + not = isn't (again, the "o" is replaced in "not."

You can also get fancier and replace even more letters. For instance, "national" can be shortened to "nat'l" with "iona" being replaced by an apostrophe.

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:33 am Having read your comments closely I have decided to limit my reply to the one area where I think I have any chance of being a positive influence - spelling/grammar.

In a contraction you put the apostrophe in the spot where the missing letter(s) would ordinarily go. For example:

does + not = doesn't (the apostrophe replaces the "o" in "not."

is + not = isn't (again, the "o" is replaced in "not."

You can also get fancier and replace even more letters. For instance, "national" can be shortened to "nat'l" with "iona" being replaced by an apostrophe.

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:33 am Having read your comments closely I have decided to limit my reply to the one area where I think I have any chance of being a positive influence - spelling/grammar.

In a contraction you put the apostrophe in the spot where the missing letter(s) would ordinarily go. For example:

does + not = doesn't (the apostrophe replaces the "o" in "not."

is + not = isn't (again, the "o" is replaced in "not."

You can also get fancier and replace even more letters. For instance, "national" can be shortened to "nat'l" with "iona" being replaced by an apostrophe.

Whatever. I type exactly how I talk but more importantly I'm right and you are not. You'll be proven wrong again just like the many times before you said things about Trump that turned out to be wrong.I don't see how you continue to trust the MSM when they have been wrong so many times on Trump,their predictions,etc that turned out to be wrong. Trump is a successful businessman this was known for atleast 40 years before he ever ran for President,yet they claim Trump is a con-man,which is not true at all. There is a list of things the liberal MSM said and predicted about Trump that have turned out to be wrong.Like they swore Trump woud not win and Hillary would win,were wrong,then it was Trump colluded with the Russians,which turned out to be a lie,now it is a Global Real estate Developer tried to build a Trump tower in Russia before he ran for President,which is not a crime.Trump has towers in many countries world wide.And it is not even believable he even tried to build a tower in Russia,but if he did,it is not a crime and is not colluding with Russia.Is he colluding with China because he has a Trump tower in China? No he is beating them in trade.

Yet they imply it is a crime and is an impeachable offense,when it is'nt.It is not colluding with Russia at all.Yet you are convinced it is a crime.The real crime is treason committed by the Obama administreation selling 20% of US Uranium to the Russians.This is colluding with the Russians and is a real crime if proven in a court of law.Plus the illegal spying of the Trump campaign based on a fake Russian dossier that they knew was fake.This is a real crime called sedition committed by the Obama administreation,FBI,CIA,etc.

Yet you think Trump is a loud mouthed scumbag because you don't like him. You are blind to real crimes and criminals while hating Trump for nothing but putting America first. Instead you have sided with and defended foreignors who came into our country illegally.You are a racist who wants to allow a certian race of people to be able to break our laws,but yet the American people must obey the laws. You cannot speed in your car and yet you want to allow them to come into our country illegally breaking our law .And YOU cannot pick and choose who gets to break our law.

But yet you actually believe Democratic Party lies that they are for border security when they have ran on securing the border,even voted for funding for a fence before and yet did not do it. Yet you believe liars who lied to you before about funding a border fence,yet did not do it. You believe liars who cannot be trusted to defend Amnerica's border just because they claim to be for it now.We cannot trust the Democratic Party to protect the American people from crime,drugs,child trafficking,gangs,etc. Trump will do it with or without their help.Trump has the ace in the hole.

ACB: Whatever. I type exactly how I talk but more importantly I'm right and you are not.

That boy believes whatever he will!

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:53 pm

ACB: Whatever. I type exactly how I talk but more importantly I'm right and you are not.

That boy believes whatever he will!

Everything I said has been in the news.I'm not just making up things.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:20 pmEverything I said has been in the news.I'm not just making up things.

Nobody thinks you're making stuff up. We think that other people make stuff up and you believe them so completely that their lies have become your worldview. We think that you should disenthrall yourself from all of those crackpot conspiracy theorists and greedy, nihilistic a-holes and think for yourself. Or at least that's what I think.

Let's use Uranium One as an example. The story is that Hillary Clinton sold 20% of America's uranium to the Russians, so now they've got all this uranium and we're just screwed. It's obviously dangerous, treasonous, evil behavior.

In reality, 9 different federal agencies approved the sale, and Hillary Clinton wasn't involved in any of it. Beyond that, the uranium isn't legally allowed to leave the United States, so it's not like we're out that uranium, most of which is still in the ground. If there's a conflict between the US and Russia we'll simply nationalize the mine, which will be trivial since the Russians can't very well move it. Furthermore, the uranium we're discussing isn't even weapons grade. And finally, Russia doesn't need our uranium. They're actually a major exporter of the stuff. They have plenty. The whole thing is a completely trivial non-story.

You're being lied to, Abe.

Abe sets bait, Ed always takes it / can't resist!

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:40 pm Abe sets bait, Ed always takes it / can't resist!

Actually, Abe and I are teaming up to manipulate you into finding neat fish videos so we don't have to. Sucker.

Ed: Actually, Abe and I are teaming up to manipulate you into finding neat fish videos so we don't have to. Sucker.

Well, the two of you do share a few traits, LOL.

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:36 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:20 pmEverything I said has been in the news.I'm not just making up things.

Nobody thinks you're making stuff up. We think that other people make stuff up and you believe them so completely that their lies have become your worldview. We think that you should disenthrall yourself from all of those crackpot conspiracy theorists and greedy, nihilistic a-holes and think for yourself. Or at least that's what I think.

Let's use Uranium One as an example. The story is that Hillary Clinton sold 20% of America's uranium to the Russians, so now they've got all this uranium and we're just screwed. It's obviously dangerous, treasonous, evil behavior.

In reality, 9 different federal agencies approved the sale, and Hillary Clinton wasn't involved in any of it. Beyond that, the uranium isn't legally allowed to leave the United States, so it's not like we're out that uranium, most of which is still in the ground. If there's a conflict between the US and Russia we'll simply nationalize the mine, which will be trivial since the Russians can't very well move it. Furthermore, the uranium we're discussing isn't even weapons grade. And finally, Russia doesn't need our uranium. They're actually a major exporter of the stuff. They have plenty. The whole thing is a completely trivial non-story.

You're being lied to, Abe.

You are accusing me of what you're doing gretting your news from the MSM.You are not informed on the issues because you rely on them for your news. Like Uranium One,you don't even know that it is being investigated.You don't know that Robert Mueller was the man who actually went to Russia with the Uranium.Hillary was Secretary of State at the time.Mueller is cooperating with investigators and is saving himself.You are not informed because the MSM ignores news like this or if they do report on it they put their spin on it so that you're not informed about it.

Not even Fox News reports this. I mean Sean Hannity goes as close to edge he can while still being able to work for Fox but Hannity has to wait longer to report on stuff we already knew about months before. And we know that he'll be proven right in the end about Seth Rich. Remember when he had to retract his story about the murder of Seth Rich.Yeah,he works for Fox News,but he was right.

You claim the people I get my news from are crackpot conspiracy theorists when it is the opposite like Trump colluded with the Russians,Trump won't win,Hillary will,Trump is a conman,Trump is unhinged and not fit to be President,Trump will get us into a war,Trump will be impeached,etc I could go on and on of conspiracy theories you believed were true that the MSM reported.

Meanwhile I am much much more informed than you are on what is going on. Even if I leave Q out of it I'm more informed than you are.I cannot believe you can continue to trust the MSM when they have been wrong so many times.I'd think you would realize what we did a long time ago.

I mean sure sometimes Q anons do not decode Q posts correctly and they misinterpret what Q meant,but Q posts in coded language and so it is an honest mistake,but it does not change the very important news we have learned about because of Q. And we know the Deep State pays attention to Q too because Q has set daes for specific things to happen on a certian date and the Deep State and their media puppets will counter it like the Bush Sr funeral where it clogs up the news and they only focus on that on the exact dates Q talked about. So we know the Deep State takes Q very serious,yet you believe the Washington Post about Q.You should know the Washington Post is part of the Deep State and red flags should go up when they report on Q but claim it is a conpsiracy theory. Why would they even care? Why has the MSM even focused on Q if he is a conspiracy theory? Red flags should go up with you. You should atleast look into Q yourself,but no,you just believe fake news.

By the way Q is a team of Patriots that are apart of military intellenence and they have the very same technology the CIA,NSA,etc has to spy on the American people,but the Q team spies on the traitors in our government and gathers evidence for military tribunals and this is why you don't see any leaks from their investigations,etc and they have it all to bust traitors in our country. Real justice moves along slowly not like the fake investigtions of Trump where there are leaks and then it turns out to be a dud.You did'nt think Trump ran on draining the swamp for nothing,did you?

You don't even know about military tribunals and yet you did not pay attention during the Bret Kavanaugh hearings when Lindsey Graham asked him specifically about military tribunals. I suggest you go back and rewatch it toward the end when Lindsey Graham questions him about miltary tribunals.By the way have you noticed a change in Lindsey Graham? He is saving himself by cooperating with investigators.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:03 am

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:45 am Personally, I don't think the Dems should fund the wall, period. The wall is stupid. I have no problem with funding for border security, though. It's completely reasonable to beef up security at our current points of entry and increase monitoring in areas where nobody lives. Trump is welcome to pretend that that's his wall and claim that Mexico is paying for it. I'd be fine with 5.7 billion for border security, making it clear that no funding for a coast to coast wall will be forthcoming.

There are much more efficient ways to spend 5.7 billion for border security than Trump's wall (that Mexico, not US taxpayers, was supposed to pay for anyway)

However... if wasting 5.7 billion on Trump's vanity project as part of a "Wall for DACA" deal will take care of the Dreamers, then let's do it.

just my .02

Not that I care too much, because this is an American issue end of day. But, Trump's wall? Isn't it a big reason he was voted in? So, it's more the people's war, Americans who voted him in. Democratic opposition stooges are just being hypocritical and playing politics to W-block.

I wonder, whether you think the walls Israel build are ineffective? Maybe they should just tare theirs down. After all, terrorists can just put up a ladder or dig underground. Silly Israel.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:59 am I hope Trump takes some constructive steps towards ending the shutdown today.
This has gone on waaaaaaaaay too long!!

First and foremost we need to let the government workers go back to work (or in many cases get paid for their work they are doing).
It is wrong to hold American workers hostage because Trump is unable to fulfill a campaign promise to get Mexico to pay for his vanity project.

The House recently passed a bill that the Senate agreed to previously. So the Senate just needs to vote on the bill from the House that they have already passed before and send it to the President.

I do think a win/win regarding immigration reform and border security is actually possible here.
Wall for DACA
Trump's base is happy because they get their wall.
The Dreamers are happy because it resolves their legal status.

I'm going to give Trump credit here. He did the right thing in finally letting 800,000 American workers go back to work.

Forcing 800,000 Americans to go without paychecks was never going to get Mexico to pay for the wall anyway.

Now that 800,000 American citizens are no longer being held hostage, I think now is the time to get down to business and negotiate a "Wall for DACA" deal.
The Dems (and an overwhelming majority of Americans) want a permanent solution for the Dreamers.
Trump (and his base) want a wall.

As I said above, IMHO 5.7 billion is a reasonable price to pay for the Dreamers.

There is a win/win to be had here.
The Dems get a permanent DACA solution.
Trump gets his wall.

I hope both sides put the next three weeks to good use.

K,

If Trump's wall was the reason that he was voted in then I guess he should have gotten organized and made sure that funding for the project got into the budget while the GOP still held the House. Expecting the opposition party to give him everything he wants is ridiculous. And if you're going to talk about mandates from the people then you need to stay current. Support for the wall might have been part of what got Trump elected, but 2016 wasn't the most recent election - the GOP got hammered in the midterms due, in part, to opposition to the wall.

The part about Israel is just silly, K. We already have walls between the US and Mexico and the Democrats aren't suggesting that they be torn down. As a matter of fact, despite partisan lies to the contrary, the Democrats are actually in favor of increased border security. The problem with the wall, or at least one of them, is that Trump tried to circumvent the legislative process by holding the government hostage. That's not how things work in a democracy. If Trump wants his wall he needs to follow the damned rules - put together a specific, detailed proposal, get somebody in Congress to sponsor it, and then get to lobbying, politicking, and horse-trading.

K, we don't have a crisis on our southern border, and if the GOP really thought that we did they'd have done something about it during the two years that they had complete control of the government. Trump desperately needs the wall for purely political reasons, but the United States of America is just fine without it. If the GOP wants to add money for increased border security then they can make a proper proposal, bundle it with a clean DACA bill, and and put it up for a vote. That would pass if it was specific and reasonable.

At the moment, though, Trump has no specific plans for the wall. It's length, height, cost, and composition have been in a state of constant flux since 2015. All he knows is that he wants something that will satisfy his base and get Coulter, Limbaugh, and Hannity to say nice things about him. He needs to do better than that if he wants more than 35% of us to support him.