Evidence for God from Science

Paul: What MATERIAL thing is it describing?

Ken: People.

Well, people aren't the only beings with intelligence. And to be accurate, intelligence describes a capability of a material being or biological entity.

Anything else, Ken, besides a person or animal, or some biological entity that has intelligence?

1over137 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:18 am Well, Scott,
Could you please define for me what 'information' is?

Without that I cannot even start to think about all that.

Well, we could go into information theory, but I'm not going to and you perhaps don't want that.

Simply put, I'd say an arrangement that is meaningful in a necessary way, rather than random sequence.

For example,

• This sentence is meaningful because of the way in which I've structured letters.
• Tiss scentene si aslo mfugniaenl busacee fo eht yaw in wchih Ie'v surttuerd lrtetes.

The following, while using similar alphabet, contains no real information however:

• wino.yes tvilnssc aa toyc nr ucnstnh. ao aosveef ahta InItfht Iieddisilrufc el h .rtasntrseaecmvoaf widef esref

Philip wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:29 pm

Paul: What MATERIAL thing is it describing?

Ken: People.

Well, people aren't the only beings with intelligence. And to be accurate, intelligence describes a capability of a material being or biological entity.

Anything else, Ken, besides a person or animal, or some biological entity that has intelligence?

No; nothing else comes to mind.

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:05 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:58 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:08 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:46 am
I'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materially

You stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?

Yes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.

What MATERIAL thing is it describing?

People.

Intelligence describes people ?
What part of people?
What about animals?

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:05 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:58 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:08 am

You stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?

Yes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.

What MATERIAL thing is it describing?

People.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:52 am Intelligence describes people ?

It is one of many descriptions of people.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:52 am What part of people?

The mind.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:52 am What about animals?

To a much lesser extent; yeah.

What do you think of what I said in the other thread - that if someone's brain works well we say they're intelligent, or they have intelligence? Intelligence is an abstract noun, isn't it? However, it definitely seems that it took intelligence to design all the "machines' that are living things (I think I got that from the other thread ) - even a biological cell is in itself a machine.

Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:44 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:05 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:58 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:08 am

You stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?

Yes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.

What MATERIAL thing is it describing?

People.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:52 am Intelligence describes people ?

It is one of many descriptions of people.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:52 am What part of people?

The mind.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:52 am What about animals?

To a much lesser extent; yeah.

And these things that intelligence describes are material things?
If yes, what properties of these things is intelligence describing?

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:23 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:44 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:05 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:58 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 am
Yes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.

What MATERIAL thing is it describing?

People.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:52 am Intelligence describes people ?

It is one of many descriptions of people.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:52 am What part of people?

The mind.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:52 am What about animals?

To a much lesser extent; yeah.

And these things that intelligence describes are material things?
If yes, what properties of these things is intelligence describing?

It's ability to acquire knowledge, and apply that knowledge to future experiences.

And where did this ability come from?

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:50 am And where did this ability come from?

I would guess the result of evolution.

Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:33 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:50 am And where did this ability come from?

I would guess the result of evolution.

Ken, you're absolutely killing me!

Philip wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:52 pm

Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:33 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:50 am And where did this ability come from?

I would guess the result of evolution.

Ken, you're absolutely killing me!

Why?

Better to circle back to "information" rather than "intelligence".

Kenny's answer is I think typical to someone who believes in evolution based upon everything else. It amounts to an "evolution of the gaps", but perhaps this can give Kenny some insight into why people might assume God for certain other things they can't prove either.

And, I can understand Kenny's "guess it'd be a result of evolution" statement. I mean if the intelligence we're familiar with is predicated upon physical beings, and many believe physical life arose via evolution, then why not? Not everything needs to be proven to reasonable satisfaction. And, his answer is just as good to him and many others who already believe in evolution alone, as-is assuming God created intelligence is to those who already believe in God.

Information in the natural order however, does imply intelligence. This isn't an "intelligence" of the gap argument as I see it. Rather "information" being found in the natural order is a positive argument for a super-intelligence of sorts -- whether it is a Gaia view that the world is actually inherently conscious and so directing, or God as in Christianity and Judaism. DNA, for example, doesn't prove God, but the meaningful arrangement of adenine (A), guanine (G), cytosine (C), and thymine (T) does prove to me an intelligence exists -- whose identity we're unaware to (at least, without any kind of extra revelation).

Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:33 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:50 am And where did this ability come from?

I would guess the result of evolution.

Evolution requires that the properties for the change be present in the cells, correct?

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:06 pm

Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:33 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:50 am And where did this ability come from?

I would guess the result of evolution.

Evolution requires that the properties for the change be present in the cells, correct?

I don't know. But if we assume you are correct, I'm curious where you're going with this.