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Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:43 am
by DBowling
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:09 am
DBowling wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:45 am
Since it's one month until Christmas...
Matthew 1:21
She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for
He will save His people from their sins.”
But we still sin, even when we are saved...
Correct...
But...
Scripture tells us that when we are saved...
we are born again (John 3:3)
we become a new creation (2 Cor 5:17)
we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9)
we are no longer slaves to sin (Romans 6:6-7)
we are being transformed into the likeness of Jesus (2 Cor 3:17-18)
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:01 am
by PaulSacramento
Correct, but what are we saved from?
Not from sinning, because we do.
Not from dying, because we do.
Some will say hell and that is correct, BUT belief in Christ doesn't save one from Hell ( The demons believe and yet...)
So what are we being saved from?
In my view, this is explicitly answered in JOHN 5, the conversation about the resurrection:
The Authority of the Son
19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[e] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
We are saved from Judgement at The Resurrection.
WHY?
Because upon accepting Christ, the process of redemption begins.
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:06 am
by RickD
As I stated before, we are saved from the wages of sin.
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:32 am
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:06 am
As I stated before, we are saved from the wages of sin.
And what are the wages of sin?
The Wages of Sin originates from the starting of the biblical verse Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Yet, we all die...
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:47 am
by DBowling
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:01 am
Correct, but what are we saved from?
Not from sinning, because we do.
Not from dying, because we do.
Some will say hell and that is correct, BUT belief in Christ doesn't save one from Hell ( The demons believe and yet...)
So what are we being saved from?
In my view, this is explicitly answered in JOHN 5, the conversation about the resurrection:
The Authority of the Son
19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[e] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
We are saved from Judgement at The Resurrection.
WHY?
Because upon accepting Christ, the process of redemption begins.
I think being saved from the consequences of sin is definitely part of the story, but its not the whole story.
Romans 6 is very clear and unambiguous that we are also freed from bondage to sin.
I don't think we can ignore what Romans 6 (and Matthew 1:21) say.
This is where the Holy Spirit and sanctification come into play.
When we are born again we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit who begins to work with our spirit to conform us to the likeness of Christ.
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:27 pm
by RickD
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:32 am
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:06 am
As I stated before, we are saved from the wages of sin.
And what are the wages of sin?
The Wages of Sin originates from the starting of the biblical verse Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Yet, we all die...
Spiritual death. Eternal separation from God.
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:42 pm
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:27 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:32 am
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:06 am
As I stated before, we are saved from the wages of sin.
And what are the wages of sin?
The Wages of Sin originates from the starting of the biblical verse Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Yet, we all die...
Spiritual death. Eternal separation from God.
Agreed.
And when does that happen?
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:21 pm
by RickD
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:42 pm
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:27 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:32 am
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:06 am
As I stated before, we are saved from the wages of sin.
And what are the wages of sin?
The Wages of Sin originates from the starting of the biblical verse Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Yet, we all die...
Spiritual death. Eternal separation from God.
Agreed.
And when does that happen?
When does salvation happen, or when does eternal separation from God happen?
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:28 am
by LonnieOwesn1973
DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:43 am
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:09 am
DBowling wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:45 am
Since it's one month until Christmas...
Matthew 1:21
She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for
He will save His people from their sins.”
But we still sin, even when we are saved...
Correct...
But...
Scripture tells us that when we are saved...
we are born again (John 3:3)
we become a new creation (2 Cor 5:17)
we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9)
we are no longer slaves to sin (Romans 6:6-7)
we are being transformed into the likeness of Jesus (2 Cor 3:17-18)
almost there but on the right track...
Can't be transformed into the Likeness of Jesus until you are walking in the spirit.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
you are not born again unless you actually start making the changes in your life to reflect the doctrine of Jesus.
A lot of people like to misuse the teachings of Paul to guide you away from the Doctrine of Christ and this is sad.
If you want to be truly saved then once you are baptized, make the change and stand up to the devil. otherwise you have taken the name of the Lord in vain.
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:07 am
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:21 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:42 pm
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:27 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:32 am
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:06 am
As I stated before, we are saved from the wages of sin.
And what are the wages of sin?
The Wages of Sin originates from the starting of the biblical verse Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Yet, we all die...
Spiritual death. Eternal separation from God.
Agreed.
And when does that happen?
When does salvation happen, or when does eternal separation from God happen?
IMO:
Salvation happens the moment you accept Jesus and the redemption process, via the Holy Spirit, begins.
Separation from God happens to those that are judged at the resurrection.
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:47 am
by RickD
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:07 am
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:21 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:42 pm
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:27 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:32 am
And what are the wages of sin?
The Wages of Sin originates from the starting of the biblical verse Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Yet, we all die...
Spiritual death. Eternal separation from God.
Agreed.
And when does that happen?
When does salvation happen, or when does eternal separation from God happen?
IMO:
Salvation happens the moment you accept Jesus and the redemption process, via the Holy Spirit, begins.
Separation from God happens to those that are judged at the resurrection.
To be clear, when talking about eternal separation from God, I'm thinking more along the lines of separation from God's
love, rather than God's
presence.
But yes, I agree that eternal separation ultimately happens at the resurrection.
My whole point in posting in this thread, was to get ACB to think about some of the things that I believe are inconsistent, in his original post.
He's yet to actually give any meaningful response to my questions.
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:29 am
by DBowling
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:28 am
DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:43 am
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:09 am
DBowling wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:45 am
Since it's one month until Christmas...
Matthew 1:21
She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for
He will save His people from their sins.”
But we still sin, even when we are saved...
Correct...
But...
Scripture tells us that when we are saved...
we are born again (John 3:3)
we become a new creation (2 Cor 5:17)
we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9)
we are no longer slaves to sin (Romans 6:6-7)
we are being transformed into the likeness of Jesus (2 Cor 3:17-18)
almost there but on the right track...
Since my post was basically quoting Scripture, I would expect to be 'on the right track'
Can't be transformed into the Likeness of Jesus until you are walking in the spirit.
I think a more accurate statement would be...
We can't be transformed into the likeness of Jesus until we have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
It is the Holy Spirit who does the transforming, It is not anything that we do or can do.
When we submit to the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives then we are able to 'walk in the Spirit' and display the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-25).
you are not born again unless you actually start making the changes in your life to reflect the doctrine of Jesus.
You have the sequence of events backwards.
We are not even capable of making changes in our life to reflect the doctrine of Jesus until AFTER we are born again and have received the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear and unambiguous.
We are saved by grace through faith, not by works.
Without the presence of the Holy Spirit, we are incapable in our own power of 'walking in the Spirit' or producing the fruit of the Spirit.
And Scripture tells us that we don't receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until after we have put our faith and trust in Jesus and become 'born again'.
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:25 am
by PaulSacramento
Without the presence of the Holy Spirit, we are incapable in our own power of 'walking in the Spirit' or producing the fruit of the Spirit.
And Scripture tells us that we don't receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until after we have put our faith and trust in Jesus and become 'born again'.
This, THIS is it right there.
Nothing we do is worthy of salvation BECAUSE the very INTENT of what we are doing is tainted because of the reason we are doing it, to be saved ( or some other reciprocal thing).
When we place our faith in Jesus we are saying that we KNOW we CAN'T do it ourselves and then His HS comes to us, dwells in us and then, only then, does the process of redemption begin.
He does it WITH Us, We do it WITH Him.
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:48 am
by abelcainsbrother
RickD wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:47 am
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:07 am
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:21 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:42 pm
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:27 pm
Spiritual death. Eternal separation from God.
Agreed.
And when does that happen?
When does salvation happen, or when does eternal separation from God happen?
IMO:
Salvation happens the moment you accept Jesus and the redemption process, via the Holy Spirit, begins.
Separation from God happens to those that are judged at the resurrection.
To be clear, when talking about eternal separation from God, I'm thinking more along the lines of separation from God's
love, rather than God's
presence.
But yes, I agree that eternal separation ultimately happens at the resurrection.
My whole point in posting in this thread, was to get ACB to think about some of the things that I believe are inconsistent, in his original post.
He's yet to actually give any meaningful response to my questions.
I just stated facts about salvation many miss and I backed myself up with scripture too.I think you expected me to actually explain what being born again means,which I did not do.I just stated you must be born again. I think the sticking point for some is the fact that unless the Holy Spirit is drawing men to Christ then they cannot be saved. I think that some think the Holy Spirit is at work all the time drawing men to Christ but Jesus said "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself" So it is conditional when men are drawn and when they are not and is not just happening when Jesus is not lifted up. This is why it is so important for the gospel to be preached and people actually hear the gospel for themselves,so that the Holy Spirit can draw men until himself.If a person does not hear the gospel then they cannot be drawn to Christ. And this gets back to the fact that man must be drawn in order to be saved and so if you have not been drawn you cannot be saved.The key is being drawn to Christ when he is lifted up and not being drawn to Christ when he is not lifted up.
Re: Key Facts About Salvation many miss or overlook when it comes to Christianity.
Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:05 pm
by abelcainsbrother
In this day and age when Jesus himself is challenged to have ever even existed and we defend our faith.It is very easy to forget how important it is to lift up the name of Jesus and preach the gospel because it is the only way men are drawn to Christ.We cannot lose sight of the facts just because our faith has been challenged by unbelievers and it is easy to feel like it is useless to lift up the name of Jesus,but we must, because men are only drawn to Christ when we do.This truth does'nt change just because our faith may be challenged by non-believers.
Save Your Voice(Quiet Down Boy)
https://youtu.be/xrSwEa29xMY