Evidence for God from Science

DBowling wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:19 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:00 pm Help me understand. John Smith believes/trusts in Christ, and has eternal life. You say that John Smith never really believed/trusted in Christ, because he rejects Jesus.

What am I missing?

Let's see what 1 John 2:19 says again...
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

A. The first part of your example is
"John Smith believes/trusts in Christ"
This corresponds to the following in 1 John 2:19
"For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;"

According to John those who truly put their faith and trust in Christ will remain in Christ and will not reject Christ.

B. Now for the second part of your example
This is a totally different situation from A.
"John Smith never really believed/trusted in Christ, because he rejects Jesus"
This corresponds to the following in 1 John 2:19
"their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

According to John those who reject Christ never really put their faith and trust in Christ and "did not really belong to us".

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. My example was about apostasy. John Smith believed, and has eternal life. Then, John Smith rejected Jesus/stopped believing/committed the sin of apostasy.

You are saying that he never believed. I’m saying that he believed, then sinned.

In my example of John Smith trusting in Christ, then committing the sin of apostasy, and renouncing his belief. Does John Smith have eternal life, yes or no?

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:33 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:19 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:00 pm Help me understand. John Smith believes/trusts in Christ, and has eternal life. You say that John Smith never really believed/trusted in Christ, because he rejects Jesus.

What am I missing?

Let's see what 1 John 2:19 says again...
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

A. The first part of your example is
"John Smith believes/trusts in Christ"
This corresponds to the following in 1 John 2:19
"For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;"

According to John those who truly put their faith and trust in Christ will remain in Christ and will not reject Christ.

B. Now for the second part of your example
This is a totally different situation from A.
"John Smith never really believed/trusted in Christ, because he rejects Jesus"
This corresponds to the following in 1 John 2:19
"their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

According to John those who reject Christ never really put their faith and trust in Christ and "did not really belong to us".

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. My example was about apostasy. John Smith believed, and has eternal life. Then, John Smith rejected Jesus/stopped believing/committed the sin of apostasy.

You are saying that he never believed. I’m saying that he believed, then sinned.

In my example of John Smith trusting in Christ, then committing the sin of apostasy, and renouncing his belief. Does John Smith have eternal life, yes or no?

If John Smith truly put his faith and trust in Christ then yes he has eternal life.

If John Smith rejects Christ, then according to 1 John 2:19 that is evidence that he never really put his faith and trust in Christ and was never truly born again..
And if John Smith does not believe in Jesus, then according to John 3:18 John Smith does not have eternal life.

I guess the issue here is that based on 1 John 2:19, I disagree with the premise that it is even possible for a person who is truly born again to stop believing in Christ.

DBowling wrote:
If John Smith truly put his faith and trust in Christ then yes he has eternal life.

Ok, I’m with you so far.

If John Smith rejects Christ, then according to 1 John 2:19 that is evidence that he never really put his faith and trust in Christ and was never truly born again..

But in my example, John Smith first trusted Christ, then rejected Christ. And why do you believe 1 John 2:19 is referring to salvation?

And if John Smith does not believe in Jesus, then according to John 3:18 John Smith does not have eternal life.

As I said, John Smith trusted Christ, and has eternal life(not may possibly have eternal life if he never sins again). He has passed from death unto life. Then John Smith stopped believing. Now you’re saying his eternal life was only temporary?

I guess the issue here is that based on 1 John 2:19, I disagree with the premise that it is even possible for a person who is truly born again to stop believing in Christ.

Based on 1 John 2:19, I don’t think the verse is even referring to eternal life/salvation, so I think your disagreement is based on a misinterpretation of the verse. I think the verse is referring to false teachers, who proved they weren’t with the apostles, when the false teachers went out on their own, and left the apostles. They weren’t of the apostles, because they went out and started their own groups.

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:06 pm

DBowling wrote:
And if John Smith does not believe in Jesus, then according to John 3:18 John Smith does not have eternal life.

As I said, John Smith trusted Christ, and has eternal life(not may possibly have eternal life if he never sins again). He has passed from death unto life. Then John Smith stopped believing. Now you’re saying his eternal life was only temporary?

No...
As I said above, based on 1 John 2:19 and John 3:18 I simply reject the premise that a person who has put their faith and trust in Jesus and is truly born again can possibly stop believing in Jesus.
I am unaware of any Scripture that supports the premise that a person who is truly born again can stop believing in Jesus.

John 3:16 clearly tells us that whoever puts their faith and trust in Jesus has eternal life... hard stop.

DBowling wrote:
I am unaware of any Scripture that supports the premise that a person who is truly born again can stop believing in Jesus.

Wouldn’t that be apostasy?

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:12 am

DBowling wrote:
I am unaware of any Scripture that supports the premise that a person who is truly born again can stop believing in Jesus.

Wouldn’t that be apostasy?

Do you have a Scriptural example of what you are referring to?

The 1 John 2:19 example of 'apostasy' describes a person (tare) who may look like a believer and identify with believers for a time, but later reveals their true nature as a tare when they reject Jesus.

One more thing...
It is possible for a person to 'believe' facts ABOUT Jesus and then later stop believing those facts ABOUT Jesus.
But believing certain facts ABOUT Jesus is not the same as believing (or trusting) IN Jesus.

The demons of James 2:19 believe certain facts ABOUT Jesus.
But the demons of James 2:19 have not put their faith and trust IN Jesus.

I have a question about scriptures which seem to warn that salvation can be lost.

Romans 11:21-22 - warns that you could be cut off

Hebrews 6:4-6 - warns that you could fall away

Hebrews 10:26-29 - warns to not make a practice of sin or you will go to hell

2 Peter 2:20-22 - believer to unbeliever... last state is worse than the first

Revelation 3:5 - The one who conquers/overcomes, ie, dies a Christian (that's how I interpret it)

Hebrews 12:1 - Run the race. That implies it's something that you continue to do/exert until you die.

I believe 1 John 2:19 IS contrasting those of belief from those of only SEEMED to believe but then moved on / didn't truly believe.

The entirety of the chapter shows contrasts between true believers and those who do not believe / aren't saved.

"...does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes."

"I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake."

"I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one."

"I have written to you, children, because you knowthe Father."

"I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning."

"I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one."

"Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

"The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever."

And in verse 18, right before the 19th verse in question: "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared."

Who are the antichrists? Those who are NOT believers and who spread false, deceptive teachings, or have merely associated themselves with the trappings of the Gospel and appearances of Christianity but have intermixed it with dangerous teachings that deny what God's Word actually says - and so such people were never Christians and instead are "wolves in sheep's' clothing."

claysmithr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:26 am I have a question about scriptures which seem to warn that salvation can be lost.

Let me give a couple of these a shot.
You will notice that I will constantly interpret these passages through the filter of 1 John 2:19.

Romans 11:21-22 - warns that you could be cut off

The 'tree' Paul is talking about in Romans 11 is True Israel of God.
The branches that are broken off are those Israelites who reject Jesus.
The branches that are grafted in are Gentiles who put their faith and trust in Jesus the Messiah.

The branches that are 'broken off' in Paul's illustration are not born again believers who later reject Christ.
The branches that are broken off in Romans 11 are those Israelites who rejected their Messiah. Romans 11 never claims that the Israelites who rejected Jesus were ever born again.

Hebrews 6:4-6 - warns that you could fall away

The issue in Hebrews 6:4-6 is whether or not the people described in this verse were ever truly born again.
1 John 2:19 indicates that if a person 'falls away' then that is evidence that they were never truly born again in the first place.

so what does
"who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age"
mean if it is not referring to being 'born again'?

Going back to 1 John 2:19, I believe that this is a reference to those people (tares again) who have identified with and associated themselves with a group of believers and seen the work of God in that group of believers. Even though they have not put their faith and trust in Jesus, they have still tasted the heavenly gift and witnessed the work of the Spirit by their association with true believers.

These first two examples should demonstrate how I interpret these types of passages through the lens of 1 John 2:19.
The rest of these passages when interpreted through 1 John 2:19 should provide very similar results.

I may do a few more later... but I think you can see where I am going.

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:25 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:12 am

DBowling wrote:
I am unaware of any Scripture that supports the premise that a person who is truly born again can stop believing in Jesus.

Wouldn’t that be apostasy?

Do you have a Scriptural example of what you are referring to?

The 1 John 2:19 example of 'apostasy' describes a person (tare) who may look like a believer and identify with believers for a time, but later reveals their true nature as a tare when they reject Jesus.

One more thing...
It is possible for a person to 'believe' facts ABOUT Jesus and then later stop believing those facts ABOUT Jesus.
But believing certain facts ABOUT Jesus is not the same as believing (or trusting) IN Jesus.

The demons of James 2:19 believe certain facts ABOUT Jesus.
But the demons of James 2:19 have not put their faith and trust IN Jesus.

When I asked if that was apostasy, I was hoping you’d clarify what you meant when you mentioned apostasy.

And if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that apostasy refers to people who once believed certain facts about who Jesus is and what he did, but never put their trust in him? And then those people stopped believing the facts that they once believed, thus committing apostasy? Is that it in a nutshell?

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:32 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:25 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:12 am

DBowling wrote:
I am unaware of any Scripture that supports the premise that a person who is truly born again can stop believing in Jesus.

Wouldn’t that be apostasy?

Do you have a Scriptural example of what you are referring to?

The 1 John 2:19 example of 'apostasy' describes a person (tare) who may look like a believer and identify with believers for a time, but later reveals their true nature as a tare when they reject Jesus.

One more thing...
It is possible for a person to 'believe' facts ABOUT Jesus and then later stop believing those facts ABOUT Jesus.
But believing certain facts ABOUT Jesus is not the same as believing (or trusting) IN Jesus.

The demons of James 2:19 believe certain facts ABOUT Jesus.
But the demons of James 2:19 have not put their faith and trust IN Jesus.

When I asked if that was apostasy, I was hoping you’d clarify what you meant when you mentioned apostasy.

And if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that apostasy refers to people who once believed certain facts about who Jesus is and what he did, but never put their trust in him? And then those people stopped believing the facts that they once believed, thus committing apostasy? Is that it in a nutshell?

I'd say that could be part of it.
The other part (based on 1 John 2:19 again) would be identifying and associating with a group of true believers and then later rejecting the faith of those believers that they previously associated with.

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:36 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:32 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:25 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:12 am

DBowling wrote:
I am unaware of any Scripture that supports the premise that a person who is truly born again can stop believing in Jesus.

Wouldn’t that be apostasy?

Do you have a Scriptural example of what you are referring to?

The 1 John 2:19 example of 'apostasy' describes a person (tare) who may look like a believer and identify with believers for a time, but later reveals their true nature as a tare when they reject Jesus.

One more thing...
It is possible for a person to 'believe' facts ABOUT Jesus and then later stop believing those facts ABOUT Jesus.
But believing certain facts ABOUT Jesus is not the same as believing (or trusting) IN Jesus.

The demons of James 2:19 believe certain facts ABOUT Jesus.
But the demons of James 2:19 have not put their faith and trust IN Jesus.

When I asked if that was apostasy, I was hoping you’d clarify what you meant when you mentioned apostasy.

And if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that apostasy refers to people who once believed certain facts about who Jesus is and what he did, but never put their trust in him? And then those people stopped believing the facts that they once believed, thus committing apostasy? Is that it in a nutshell?

I'd say that could be part of it.
The other part (based on 1 John 2:19 again) would be identifying and associating with a group of true believers and then later rejecting the faith of those believers that they previously associated with.

So, an unbeliever later rejects a saving faith that he never actually had? And that’s apostasy?

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:14 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:36 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:32 am And if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that apostasy refers to people who once believed certain facts about who Jesus is and what he did, but never put their trust in him? And then those people stopped believing the facts that they once believed, thus committing apostasy? Is that it in a nutshell?

I'd say that could be part of it.
The other part (based on 1 John 2:19 again) would be identifying and associating with a group of true believers and then later rejecting the faith of those believers that they previously associated with.

So, an unbeliever later rejects a saving faith that he never actually had? And that’s apostasy?

According to the example John gives us in 1 John 2:19 the short answer is ...
yes

However, as I mention above the longer answer also involves
- identifying with a group of believers and then later rejecting the faith of those same believers
- and possibly changing his mind about what he believes ABOUT Christ

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:34 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:14 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:36 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:32 am And if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that apostasy refers to people who once believed certain facts about who Jesus is and what he did, but never put their trust in him? And then those people stopped believing the facts that they once believed, thus committing apostasy? Is that it in a nutshell?

I'd say that could be part of it.
The other part (based on 1 John 2:19 again) would be identifying and associating with a group of true believers and then later rejecting the faith of those believers that they previously associated with.

So, an unbeliever later rejects a saving faith that he never actually had? And that’s apostasy?

According to the example John gives us in 1 John 2:19 the short answer is ...
yes

However, as I mention above the longer answer also involves
- identifying with a group of believers and then later rejecting the faith of those same believers
- and possibly changing his mind about what he believes ABOUT Christ

What NT Greek word are you translating as the English word Apostasy? I’m not familiar with any definition of apostasy that has someone rejecting a belief he never actually believed.

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:25 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:12 am

DBowling wrote:
I am unaware of any Scripture that supports the premise that a person who is truly born again can stop believing in Jesus.

Wouldn’t that be apostasy?

Do you have a Scriptural example of what you are referring to?

Let me repeat this question from earlier in thread.
It would help my understanding of your position if you would provide a Scriptural example that supports your understanding of 'apostacy'.