Evidence for God from Science

Claysmithr wrote:
Eternal life is still eternal whether or not you accept it.

Let's say someone says if you have faith you will get an eternal diamond [and for the sake of argument it is eternal]... you can forfeit that eternal diamond by saying you don't want it anymore, throw it away, and reject it.

Then someone could say, do you have that eternal diamond? And then you say that you rejected it.

Then they would say, well it must not ever been an eternal diamond, because if you rejected it then it must not have ever been eternal.

See how that argument makes no sense?

Yes, it makes no sense, because it’s not analogous to eternal life. Using your example, a better analogy would be this:

Let's say someone says if you have faith you will possess a diamond for eternity. You can forfeit that eternal diamond by saying you don't want it anymore, try to throw it away, and reject it.

Then someone could say, do you have that eternal diamond? And then you say that you rejected it.

Then they would say, well it must not ever been an eternal diamond, because if you rejected it then it must not have ever been eternal.

You cannot possess a diamond for eternity, if it can be taken from you, or given up by you. And that would mean whoever promised you that you would have the diamond for eternity, is a liar.
You are making God into a liar.

Our eternal life is found in Christ. He is the way, the truth, and the life.

None of us have eternal life outside of our union with Jesus.

Absolutely! And God promises that we are His forever, because of who He is, not because of our performance, or lack of performance.

Before you had a relationship with Jesus Christ, was he already eternal life, or was he not?

I don’t understand what you mean. Please cite scripture for this.

If you reject Jesus Christ, and you're cut off from Christ, and you no longer have eternal life

If you could possibly no longer have eternal life, it wasn’t eternal to begin with. I’m not sure that you even realize what eternal life is. Eternal life means that you will live forever. Again, if someone promises me that I will live forever starting immediately, if I believe in something, then there are two possible outcomes if I believe.

1) I do live forever, and the person making the promise is trustworthy

Or

2) somehow I don’t live forever, and the person is a liar

My God is true, despite my failings. His promises are true!

Your god is a liar, who is so weak that he can only keep his promise if you are able to keep from a sin that you say would nullify your god's promise. What a weak, pathetic false god you serve!

I thank God that He keeps his promises to me, despite my failures! He alone is worthy!

Jesus compares us to branches on a tree. Jesus is the tree, and we are the branches. As branches we can either abide in the tree, or be cut off from the tree.

If you are referring to John 15:6, you are taking scripture out of context, again, to make it fit your theology. You need to let scripture speak for itself. That passage is not referring to salvation at all. It’s about bearing fruit. You can’t just assume passages are referring to something they’re not, just to fit your theology.

Ephesians 4:30
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.



Do you understand what it means to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? It means that God Himself has sealed a believer. And His seal is like a seal of ownership. A believer is forever His, because He has sealed us!

There are so many parables that Jesus teaches about Christians falling away, but people seem to ignore those, and most of the refer to present tense verbs, so continually in the moment. Not getting saved and then continuing in your way of living a life of habitual sin and expecting to go to heaven.

You are BORN AGAIN, in other words you turn away from your sin and start a new life. If you go back to that life of sin, you undo what has been done. Going back to sin is likened a dog going back to it's sick.

The Bible also says that it would be better that a man was never saved, than be saved and fall away.

Stu wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:50 am There are so many parables that Jesus teaches about Christians falling away, but people seem to ignore those, and most of the refer to present tense verbs, so continually in the moment. Not getting saved and then continuing in your way of living a life of habitual sin and expecting to go to heaven.

You are BORN AGAIN, in other words you turn away from your sin and start a new life. If you go back to that life of sin, you undo what has been done. Going back to sin is likened a dog going back to it's sick.

The Bible also says that it would be better that a man was never saved, than be saved and fall away.

You need to trust in Christ for salvation, and stop trusting in your ability of yourself to keep from sinning.

RickD wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:14 pm

Stu wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:50 am There are so many parables that Jesus teaches about Christians falling away, but people seem to ignore those, and most of the refer to present tense verbs, so continually in the moment. Not getting saved and then continuing in your way of living a life of habitual sin and expecting to go to heaven.

You are BORN AGAIN, in other words you turn away from your sin and start a new life. If you go back to that life of sin, you undo what has been done. Going back to sin is likened a dog going back to it's sick.

The Bible also says that it would be better that a man was never saved, than be saved and fall away.

You need to trust in Christ for salvation, and stop trusting in your ability of yourself to keep from sinning.

For your salvation, yes, but that doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. Why did Jesus use the term "born again"?

You become a new person. Of course we stumble and fall but we then get up and don't stay down wallowing in sin.

2 Peter 2:20-22 King James Version
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The Bible says that it would be better for someone to not have known Jesus, or be saved, than to have been saved and turn away.

That is pretty clear that you are not OSAS if you can turn away from your salvation.

Stu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:51 am

2 Peter 2:20-22 King James Version
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The Bible says that it would be better for someone to not have known Jesus, or be saved, than to have been saved and turn away.

That is pretty clear that you are not OSAS if you can turn away from your salvation.

Where does 2 Peter 2:20 say anything about putting their faith in Jesus, or being born again, or "being saved"
It doesn't...
2 Peter 2:20 doesn't say anything about "being saved". You just put "being saved" in as an editorial comment.
"Being saved" may be somewhere in your head, but it is absent from the Scriptural text.

In fact verse 22 is actually inconsistent with your extrascriptural editorial insertion.
Verse 22 doesn't say that the dog was "born again" into a new creature then transformed back to being a dog again.
Verse 22 says that the dog never changed from being a dog. And since it was still a dog it went back to acting like a dog.

Verse 22 doesn't say that the sow became a new creature and then transformed back to being a sow again.
Verse 22 says that the sow never changed from being a sow, and eventually went back to behaving like the sow it really was.

DBowling wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:10 pm

Stu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:51 am

2 Peter 2:20-22 King James Version
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The Bible says that it would be better for someone to not have known Jesus, or be saved, than to have been saved and turn away.

That is pretty clear that you are not OSAS if you can turn away from your salvation.

Where does 2 Peter 2:20 say anything about putting their faith in Jesus, or being born again, or "being saved"
It doesn't...
2 Peter 2:20 doesn't say anything about "being saved". You just put "being saved" in as an editorial comment.
"Being saved" may be somewhere in your head, but it is absent from the Scriptural text.

In fact verse 22 is actually inconsistent with your extrascriptural editorial insertion.
Verse 22 doesn't say that the dog was "born again" into a new creature then transformed back to being a dog again.
Verse 22 says that the dog never changed from being a dog. And since it was still a dog it went back to acting like a dog.

Verse 22 doesn't say that the sow became a new creature and then transformed back to being a sow again.
Verse 22 says that the sow never changed from being a sow, and eventually went back to behaving like the sow it really was.

Absolutely, DB! He’s reading into the text for it to sound like the text is referring to believers and salvation. The context of those passages in 2 Peter is talking about false prophets.