Evidence for God from Science

RGeeB wrote:

Is there a case for Christ from the Koran?

He is only another prophet by that account.
Don't get it.

Well, a few would agree that the Koran is a counterfeit of the Christian gospel. Its subtly appeals to man's pride by removing the concept of grace, inspite of both containing a lot of similar stories and texts.

However, following K's post above and also the fact that God is capable of using anything to spread His message of salvation - I guess the Koran can be used to intially make a Muslim aware of the Christian approach.

Sorry, but it's more than removing grace. What is considered as authority for belief is a major departure point: the final authority for Protestants, Catholics and Muslims are quite different, i.e., Protestants-Bible alone, Catholics-Bible, tradition and the Pope, Islamists-Bible, Muhammad's writings (which supersede the Bible) and tradition.

Although there are many parallels between the Bible and the Qur'an, hadith, etc., there are also many traditions which are passed along to Muslims and affect their beliefs. One of these, for example, is the Muslim belief that Isaac was not the son of promise, but it was Ishmael. This, of course, means that God's promise of blessing to Abraham's descendants would pass to the Arabs through Ishmael and Muhammad, not to the Jews and gentiles through Isaac and Jesus. Not all Muslims believe this, but many do.

Muslims overlook the many other references to "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" in the Bible. In effect, this shakes a fist in the face of God because it rejects who Jesus is and denies His redemptive sacrifice. The Qur'an itself has many contradictions and I fail to see how it could be used as a tool of salvation.

To compare the Bible and the Qur'an on equal footing, for example, is a road paved with many obstacles to overcome. Yes, God can use anything, even something meant for evil He can use for good (e.g., selling Joseph into slavery). But there was always a faithful agent like Joseph which God used. But I believe it's quite a stretch to assume that God would use the writings of a false prophet to accomplish His will.

Then you have to face the same obstacle which Saddam so effectively used to defy the UN mandates for a decade or more. Almost without exception, Arabs believe that their goals or causes are mandated by Allah and that any means, including deceit and ignoring signed treaties, are justified in reaching their goals. There has never been a treaty which they honored to the letter. Same with the Israeli-Palestinian peace accords. Arafat has yet to live up to one of the many agreements he signed in the last treaty, yet Israel has fulfilled all of its obligations.

So then, what kind of reasoning can one use in dealing with such a mindset? Are Muslims going to see the logic in comparing the Bible and their holy writings? Not at all, they will defend their well ingrained beliefs in spite of all truths presented to them. They simply ignore what does not agree with their beliefs. Their thinking pattern goes like this:
Q: Why is that true?
.......A: It's in the Qur'an.
Q: How do you know the Qur'an is true?
.......A: Muhammad is Allah's prophet.
Q: How can you be sure?
.......A: It's in the Qur'an.

What happens is that they leap to the conclusion they have been raised to believe, then use somewhat circular reasoning to justify this end. How do I reach such a conclusion? I have tried to reason with Muslims via Email, but this has been my experience. And I have researched this theory and found authors who agree that reasoning has little impact on the Arab mindset. But, of course, you may disagree with this. I will defend it, but I do not insist that you should agree with me. That's what a forum is for.

StanMan

Allow me to be clearer in what I was getting at.

StanMan wrote:Allah is not the God of the Bible. He is not the God who Abram and Moses worshipped and Jesus revealed. Jesus and God are ONE! .StanMan

This is where I feel is our truth against theirs which cannot be argue by just this simple statement of denial. Objective facts need to be presented. For sure, Arabs & Jews were of the same ancestry which link them all the way to Abram. Of course, if I look at the statement from your light, you're absolutely right cos Allah is never mentioned in the Bible. But for those who think that the Bible is semi-corrupted, it is the same God, but the part about Jesus being God is what they would think are adulterated text.

StanMan wrote:Allah had only one prophet Muhammad, and he tried to reinvent scripture according to his own so-called visions. StanMan

Another case of ours against theirs. Let the fact speaks.

StanMan wrote:. He was the very first radical and terrorist and spread his brand of religion through fear and intimidation.StanMan

No name calling but showing that God's love for his creation would never allow his people to spread the faith thru violent means (NT gospel) This is reasoning & individual soul liberty. BTW, I do not subscribe to the notion that God is love only. I was writing in response to your posting.

As far as discussion with Muslim on this subject is concern, I'd much rather take the route that Ahmed Deedat & Josh McDowell took....having a factual debate, as well as presenting the gospel as it is.

I'll keep my peace from now on...in this subject. I'll prefer to agree to disagree instead of off-focusing the intent on this original posting.

Thanks for letting me share my thots.

The edge wrote:Allow me to be clearer in what I was getting at.

Thanks, this helps quite a bit. I didn't mean to derail your topic. I assume you are not trying to provide "scientific" proof of God, but only a platform to show the biblical and historical evidence that exists. I guess the term "from science" in the title threw me off.

StanMan wrote:Allah is not the God of the Bible. He is not the God who Abram and Moses worshipped and Jesus revealed. Jesus and God are ONE! .StanMan

This is where I feel is our truth against theirs which cannot be argue by just this simple statement of denial. Objective facts need to be presented. For sure, Arabs & Jews were of the same ancestry which link them all the way to Abram. Of course, if I look at the statement from your light, you're absolutely right cos Allah is never mentioned in the Bible. But for those who think that the Bible is semi-corrupted, it is the same God, but the part about Jesus being God is what they would think are adulterated text.

OK, if I grasp where you are going with this, then maybe another approach might help here. I appreciate that a "simple statement of denial" is not an offer of evidence. So let's just consider the fact of the crucifixion. We say there are many evidences, both historical and biblical, to establish that Jesus died by crucifixion. But Muhammad flat out denied that there was any such evidence, saying that it "seemed that way" to us but that he was inspired to know that it was a conspiracy to make it look that way. May I cite the following:
Muslims are much like those two Middle-Eastern men. As with most Jews, the concept of a crucified Messiah is a contradiction in terms (like a married bachelor!). They do not understand "all that the prophets have spoken." Muslims even go so far as to deny the historical record of Jesus' death since the Qur'an states: "They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared: 'We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah.' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so to them." (4:157) Amadou Hampaté Ba in his book "Jesus as Seen by a Muslim" writes: "Any disloyalty to Jesus must be punished in the same way as blasphemy against Mohammed. There is no doubt about it, in Islam, that the one who blasphemes against Jesus is promised hell fire." Yet concerning Christ's death Ba writes: "On this point, we differ with our Christian brothers. For us, Jesus will certainly die, but he has not yet died."
[See http://www.answering-islam.org/TWOR/peacepromoting.html]
[Also see http://www.answering-islam.org/TWOR/mor ... igion.html]

I'll keep my peace from now on...in this subject. I'll prefer to agree to disagree instead of off-focusing the intent on this original posting.

Thanks for letting me share my thots.

And thanks for your partient explanation. Let me leave you with this thought, in case you haven't considered this aspect. It is evident from my comments above that Muhammad has denied in the Qur'an one of the central truths of the Bible, the crucifixion of Jesus. As you say yourself, the Muslims think the scriptures (other than theirs) are corrupted in certain things, this being one of the biggies. And they are under the fear of Allah should they reject anything in the Qur'an. Not only that, but they are under the threat of death should they leave the Islam religion.

I know this sounds negative, but to expect Muslims to be rational about anything which is contrary to the Qur'an is not reasonable. Maybe I lack faith in this regard, but I believe they are motivated more by fear and feelings than by reasoned discourse. I think it would be much more productive to try this on a face-to-face basis rather than in a forum where anything they say is open to public viewing. OK, I've said my piece.

Godspeed,
Stan

Sorry for backing out of my words, Stan.

I agree with your latest posting.

Hello mosa,

Christians and Jews also submit to the will of God.

Christians do not believe that the prophet of Islam is a prophet of God Almighty, nor do we believe that the Qur'an is the Word of God Almighty.

There was much more to Jesus' message that submitting to God. He said that He was the long-awaited Messiah--something that Muslims do not believe. He said that He would die--something that Muslims do not believe.

In its final form revealed to Allâh's last Messenger Muhammed, the message has been restored, completed and finalized.

I'm sorry, but the Qur'an contradicts the Holy Bible in too many major ways to have come from God Almighty of the Holy Bible.

The word “Allâh” in the Arabic Language means God, or more accurately: The One and Only Eternal God, Creator of the Universe, Lord of all lords, King of all kings, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful. The word Allâh to mean God: is also used by Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians as well.

The word "Allah" is the generic word for god. Even the pagans used "Allah" for their gods. This is not the personal name of God Almighty that He gave to us in the Holy Bible. What you have noted for God above is God's attributes, not His name.

The reason that Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians use the name "Allah" for god is simply because they speak Arabic, but as stated "Allah" is the generic word for God.

God's personal name is YHVH. Jews and Christians both agree on this. For the Jews God is also known as El Shaddai. This Name is usually translated as "God Almighty." They also use the name Ha-Shem which is the Jewish generic word for God.

Shalom

So then, what kind of reasoning can one use in dealing with such a mindset? Are Muslims going to see the logic in comparing the Bible and their holy writings? Not at all, they will defend their well ingrained beliefs in spite of all truths presented to them. They simply ignore what does not agree with their beliefs. Their thinking pattern goes like this:
Q: Why is that true?
.......A: It's in the Qur'an.
Q: How do you know the Qur'an is true?
.......A: Muhammad is Allah's prophet.
Q: How can you be sure?
.......A: It's in the Qur'an.

this is exactly what christians do except with their book the bible
jews, mormons, etc.
These holy books weren't written by any god, they were written by man, men who claimed their god talked to them, its all faith

suparad, do you have any proof to back up your statements or are you just out for a little morning Christian bashing? Because I'm fairly sure making statements like that are against the rules of this site. This isn't a debate forum.

suparad wrote:this is exactly what christians do except with their book the bible
jews, mormons, etc.
These holy books weren't written by any god, they were written by man, men who claimed their god talked to them, its all faith

Well you are right about one thing, Scripture was written by men over many millennia. Christians, Muslims, and Jews all agree however, that the Torah at least was inspired of God in its original form. Christians and Muslims would perhaps also agree that the NT is also inspired in its original form. Therefore if it can be shown that what we have today are authentic and fairly accurate transcriptions from the originals, then there is reason to believe todays copies are inspired in as much as they represent the original signatures.

Now you can reject and dismiss them based on your dislike of God and Atheistic beliefs that I personally don't have enough faith to believe in. I'm sure you have read and understood everything within such holy books to be able to do so. I'm sure you are a very proficient historical scholar and theologian, if not omniscient in such fields, and this is why your opinion would hold a lot of weight. However, Christians, Muslims and Jews aren't as enlightened as you, so we will continue to embrace the books we do as divinely inspired.

Kurieuo.

my sarcasm detector is beeping like crazy!

suparad wrote: this is exactly what christians do except with their book the bible
jews, mormons, etc.
These holy books weren't written by any god, they were written by man, men who claimed their god talked to them, its all faith

I think ur statement above is generally fair.
There is a great percentage of people in every religion that believe simply because they are brought up to be so....to believe in something that they are told is the truth.
There'll always be "pharasees" everywhere who hold on to their tradition & faith blindly. While I can't say that I'm exempted from it, I do try my utmost to teach my students not to.
Don't believe every word that I say ... go check it out yourself.
Recently, I asked my Christian friend what will be his reaction if he were to face God one day & is told that he had believe wrongly.
"too bad I guess" was his reply.
I like his reply. It means he's still open to the possiblity that he is wrong. It means he had not shut his mind off from learning. It means he had not dogmatically held on to what he had been taught about the truth. It means that he could still change his mind if new evidence is shown.

I still hold on to my faith in God & Bible ...until I'm proven otherwise one day. But I want to remain open.

Recently, I asked my Christian friend what will be his reaction if he were to face God one day & is told that he had believe wrongly.
"too bad I guess" was his reply.
I like his reply. It means he's still open to the possiblity that he is wrong. It means he had not shut his mind off from learning. It means he had not dogmatically held on to what he had been taught about the truth. It means that he could still change his mind if new evidence is shown.

I still hold on to my faith in God & Bible ...until I'm proven otherwise one day. But I want to remain open.

Wow, you don't hear many christians reply that way its ususally "I know I'm right" or they go off on how all other religions have false gods.

With me I try to keep my mind completely open. I can honestly say that maybe the bible and jesus is real, there is really no way to disprove it , but at the same time there is no real proof of its reality either, its all based on faith. I think religion is just like bigfoot and ufo's there isn't a shred of evidence. (and no, the bible isn't evidence, anyone can say they talked to god and write a book about it)

Christians reading this right now can you say for yourself that you might be wrong and that jesus isn't the true way and perhaps the muslims have chosen the correct path to god??Or are you 100% certain that you are right?

Once you are born again, there is no more doubt. I can't really explain it to you because it would be like explaining what it's like to see to a man who's been blind all his life.

suparad wrote:With me I try to keep my mind completely open. I can honestly say that maybe the bible and jesus is real, there is really no way to disprove it , but at the same time there is no real proof of its reality either, its all based on faith.

I don't know what kind of faith you're referring to, but the faith I see taught Scripturally is one that is always based upon reason. As for your saying there is no proof of Christ's reality, such to me shows you have not really explored the historicity of Christ's life, death nor resurrection.

suparad wrote: I think religion is just like bigfoot and ufo's there isn't a shred of evidence. (and no, the bible isn't evidence, anyone can say they talked to god and write a book about it)

So why are you here?

Kurieuo.

suparad wrote:(and no, the bible isn't evidence, anyone can say they talked to god and write a book about it)
Christians reading this right now can you say for yourself that you might be wrong and that jesus isn't the true way and perhaps the muslims have chosen the correct path to god??Or are you 100% certain that you are right?

When I found god I was in the darkest place you can imagine, those of you who know my story know what happened to me. I can say for weeks I found it hard to accept what had happened to me, then I had no choice but to accept it. So I researched, and I found that science proved the possibility of god, from then my faith began to flicker and grow the more I looked into it. I know I can read the same passages of the bible and see confussion, but suddenly I find meaning and it is like a light going on.
Am I 100% certain that I worship the right god, yes I am. #1 a god sent presence saved my life literally, #2 science and the bible agree.
#3 the unity of the anthology of 66 books written by 40 authors who were Kings, slaves, fishermen, doctors etc, each living a great distance apart from israel, babylon or Rome over 1500 years. What happened to me and all this makes my faith stand strong, the more I study and research, checking as god instructs us to do the more the light of understanding knowledge shines in me.
What other book of any other religion stands up to the scrutiny that the bible can?

The edge wrote:I like his reply. It means he's still open to the possiblity that he is wrong.

suparad wrote:Christians reading this right now can you say for yourself that you might be wrong and that jesus isn't the true way and perhaps the muslims have chosen the correct path to god??Or are you 100% certain that you are right?

Mastermind wrote:Once you are born again, there is no more doubt.

There is the possibility Christianity is wrong, as it is not necessarily true that Christ had to come to die as Christians believe.

On the other hand, I do not doubt I am wrong, as I have tested what I believe for consistency (the only test that we can perhaps put our beliefs through to help eliminate bias), and I am entirely convinced and therefore certain that the Gospel of Christ is true. Therefore anything that contradicts such a message, I would also be certain is wrong.

This is not to say doubts or questions don't arise which may go against parts of my beliefs. Or even because I am certain of my beliefs, that I don't criticise and refine them. Yet, as I continually face doubts, seek answers to them, and bring about more consistency with what I believe, my faith in Christ's message continues to grow stronger. Maybe if doubts and inconsistencies began to build up and build up, then my faith would be eroded, and then I would be thrown into uncertainty. However, this does not appear to be the case, and I generally always seek out answers to doubts whenever they arise.

Kurieuo.