Evidence for God from Science

THESE ARE THE POSITIVE:

Exo 15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

Judg 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

2 Ki 22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.

Neh 6:14 My God, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and on the prophetess Noadiah, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear.

Luke 2:36-37 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

Acts 21:8-9 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

THESE ARE THE NEGATIVE:

1 Cor 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Tim 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.


I believe Paul was implying to the Ephiesian women and how they would gossip in church.
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Some claim that the role of a prophetress differs from a Pastor.
A prophetress merely interpret or communicate the message of God, while a Pastor had to lead the chuch not just in word but also in many other areas.

Deborah however was also a judge. Yet some maintain that she merely play the role to telling right from wrong but again did not actually led, given the fact that she wanted someone else to lead the army.

Hmm... is the above really good justification to deny woman leadership in spiritual matters?

Miriam was a prophetess, as were the daughters of Philip (I think it was Philip) in the book of Acts, also Mary prohpesied as did Elizabeth, at least on one occassion, so it is clear women can and are prophetesses without hesitation. But, pastors? First of all there is no biblical basis for a one man pastoral church, it is always referred to as elders, bishops, deacons, etc in the PLURAL. And, we know women are not to have authority over a man or teach one, (at least not apart from another man, as Priscilla and Aquilla demonstrated when co-teaching Apollos in Acts) but for a woman, alone, to lead a church and have authority over a man? No way. No basis for it, in fact, absolutely against it. I don't think even a single man should pastor a church as sole authority, it must be done as in first century, a GROUP of men, either deacons, elders, etc. When and where and how this one man show started I don't know, but it is the cause of many a church being divided and many a pastor falling victim to pride and the lust for power. Thus leading his flock astray with him. NO accountability.

Zoe, I'm glad to have you here! I agree with you almost 100%. Although I believe a woman can teach a man by herself, not in an authoritative way. And you're right, the Bible teaches that Christ's Body, when the members gather together, are not to organize itself in the way that's been popular for so long with so many. It's of human origin, and from the days of Christ there have existed those who knew better, (check out the book The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent, published under Gospel Folio Press, a Plymoth Brethren publishing company.) Each gift is to be honored at the gatherings, not just the pastors! There is no clergy and laity in the Bible! All Children of God are priests! Shepherds shepherd, teachers teach, prophets prophecie, (spelling?) those who encourage do so, those with tongues speak if there's an interpreter, and so on. To have all but one of the members of the Body sit under the pastor as deaf and dumb sheep is not the biblical way! How can the Body move like this? It can't! But this is getting too far off-topic, and I have been called by God to a church with a pastor who runs things the same way as I've disagreed with here! (Prayerfully I'm to be an influence to help change that!)

Kateliz - I'm currently involved in a Southern Baptist church, and while they do teach the biblical precident of "women are not to have authority over a man" they take it too far in some respects. I am of course in agreement with women being submissive, to their husbands, those in authority, etc. and not to take a leadership position OVER a man, But my church doesn't even encourage women leading in prayer, which I feel has no biblical basis. Also, I've found that in so-ed bible studies, women tend to monopolize the discussion rather than men lead. In this way, I feel we violate that principle of why women were not to speak in churches. Which, by the way, if you read the context of that passage Paul wrote, was with regard to speaking in tongues and prophecy. I have the gifts of prophecy and teaching thus far, but I never approach a man with any sort of biblical instruction or teaching. I am also unmarried, so the guidance to "ask their husbands at home" doesn't work for me. I typically refrain from entering into any discussion "in the church" with men, although I let it all go with women and do lead women in our church and in a home bible study.

Never heard of this denomination or faith you refer to. I'm praying for a home church, I see no future in the societal "church" or large groups. IN fact, I am completely opposed to it. But, like Paul going to the synagogue each week, I go to my church building each week and throughout the week to meet others who seek God, and instruct them gently in the way of His Word. What better place to be a fisher of men than in a church where people are already seeking? I'm finding though that most don't care to learn, they are there for their 1 hour stint to make them feel less guilty, and there are few true believers in churches today. But, this too was prophesied.

The Word leans toward men, but we do see a few woman prophets (esses).

One thing about the scripture in Corinthians about women keeping silence...

We must first know exactly what "church" that is referring to - what meaning of the word.

For example, in English, the word "bank" has several meanings from a slope by the river to a place for wealth.

The word church in the bible is "ekklesia" and it has several meanings.

Review it out in a concordance if you get a chance. Especially in Acts where the rioting mob of silversmiths got "bent out of shape". That rioting mob is called an "assembly" in King James Version. And the word it's translated from is "ekklesia". So accurately speaking, that Greek word refers to a group assembled for a specific purpose.

In addition, The section in Corinthians is referring to women speaking or asking about a particular aspect of business, as opposed to speaking out on God's behalf. Corinithians, there, is referring to women / wives, not a ministry of a phophet.

Zoe wrote:I typically refrain from entering into any discussion "in the church" with men

But Zoe, what do you think you're doing presenting the truth openly on this forum, frequented mostly by men? This forum is a sort of a church because we are Christians gathered together, and any teaching at all done here is done to both men and women, but moreso men! Have you not been teaching them through your posts?

Zoe wrote:Also, I've found that in co-ed bible studies, women tend to monopolize the discussion rather than men lead. In this way, I feel we violate that principle of why women were not to speak in churches.

I've found the same thing. And I'm usually the one most guilty of it! I'm not too sure of my stance on that, but it has always concerned me. The men are to lead, but yet the women kind of take over. I don't want to stop participating the way I do, (if there's no head figure in the discussion it usually ends up so that it's me teaching- I have the gift of teaching like you- and everyone else asking me questions,) but how can you solve that issue without separating the sexes? I don't believe men and women Christians can't discuss the things of God together!

Zoe wrote:I am also unmarried, so the guidance to "ask their husbands at home" doesn't work for me.

Same here, and I feel at a loss as to what I should do then if I can't ask questions myself during a co-ed discussion! I'm just all confused about how the Bible teaches all of this stuff! I get so many different excuses/reasons for why some of the things on women are in the Bible, and I haven't yet made heads or tails of most of it. All I know is I believe the Bible and whatever it means to say! But how are women to be submissive in the ways described and yet still participate in ways that seem good and natural? I'd like this to be described in detail to me. Am I, in a Bible study, not to say anything? And if I can, can I do what's natural and correct unbiblical statements men and women make or add a teaching I'm given? And if I can do those things, what if I would naturally do them quite a bit in the discussion? What if I end up leading the discussion like this for a time? Where is the line to be drawn to keep it biblical and myself submissive to the men? And could I get up in front of a co-ed group and give a teaching once in a while?

Zoe wrote:I'm praying for a home church, I see no future in the societal "church" or large groups. IN fact, I am completely opposed to it.

I didn't go to any church for many years because I... well first of all wasn't called to one, but also because I was so concerned that there wasn't a church out there I could accept belonging to. I mean, you can't go in and start telling everyone they're doing it all wrong! I adamently prayed with much sorrow and many tears that God give me a group of believers I could be with. But God had His plans for that time in my life, and since I've been going for almost a year now to a church God finally called me to, (threw it right in my lap, He's so Good!) He's let my time away from a church be a huge blessing to everyone there, (and myself of course!). I learned things on my own that most church-going people don't learn because I was free from assumed beliefs and the pressure of others' opinions. Since joining I have encountered the unavoidable assumed beliefs and pressure of others' opinions, and if I wasn't grounded in unbiased biblical understanding I'd fall prey to it quite easily! It's sometimes quite difficult to trust the understanding God gave you and not get all caught up in others telling you it's wrong! The church God has placed me in is a very small one, where on Sundays there's maybe at most maybe forty people, usually around twenty for the Bible studies, and around ten for the home fellowship. Large churches tend to be unbiblical and watered down. Not that many Christians want to sit under sound biblical teaching and be held accountable for their actions and attitudes! My church actually practices temporarily banning members that continue in blatant outward sins! Only about a week ago we were able to take back in a Sister that after a year and a half truly repented! It made me so happy because it was so biblical!

mdvaden wrote:The section in Corinthians is referring to women speaking or asking about a particular aspect of business, as opposed to speaking out on God's behalf. Corinithians, there, is referring to women / wives, not a ministry of a phophet.

Huh? What kind of buisness do you mean? I've never heard of that before. Please explain because this concept is completely new to me! And yes, a biblical "church" is actually just a "called-out assembly"! Any grouping of Christians, like this forum, is technically a "church"!

The way I see it is, women are much more open and free-speaking when it comes to the Word. I see women as the best witnesses for God when people open their ears. In contrast I see men as being more reserved and less talkative, only speaking about God's glory in a way relevant to a current issue, and only doing it when it is maximally appropriate.

So I think that's why men have been delegated to leadership in the church and women are free to do as the please in any other situation involving God. Women can preach the word, they just shouldn't lead because of their nature, which is much more expressive than men. I know from personal experience, a woman preaching the word gets to my heart much better than a man, but I can always turn to a man to give me a strong, matter-of-fact, answer to any question I have about the hard facts. I can turn to a women about wisdom but I can turn to a man when I need knowledge.

Dan - I know what you mean about women teaching and exhorting others, it IS powerful. But then again, we have SO many examples of women who had power of influence over men in the Bible, both for good and evil. Deborah, Abigail, MIchael (Saul's daughter), Esther, to name a few of the positive influences. And of course there's Eve, Delilah, Solomon's numerous wives, Jezebel, and others for evil. It is clear that God has a purpose for women that DOES involve them speaking, but isn't it interesting that the many many cautions and warnings in the New Testament (and Proverbs for that matter) specifically speak to WOMEN and the sins of the tongue? As with everything God gives for good, Satan and the flesh use for evil. So it is with the gift of speech women have, it is up to us to decide what sort of influence we will have over the men in our lives, esp our husbands.

This power ofinfluence is tempered by our position. Like the angels, men and women were given positions of AUTHORITY, not related to their purpose or effectiveness, nor to their inferiority to men. WOmen's Lib did more damage to the Christian women of this country than anything else - it has resulted in women making a drastic departure from their Biblical role in the home, and how they raise their children.

Kate - as for how do we guage our gifts and abilities with our proper role as women in the church? I too struggle with that every day. I choose not to speak in the church in co-ed classes, instead going to an all women's class where i can speak freely. Men (many of them, my father included) have told me how much they dislike co-ed classes for the reason I mentioned - women take over. But, in fairness, if men would speak up, take the lead, it would leave no opportunity for women, eh? So there is a great need for Christian men to assume their proper roles as well. My personal opinion is that women need to submit BEFORE a man is able ot lead. It makes more sense this way, and there is less heartache and stress. But the men better lead, or the women will assume the roles again, just because things "aren't getting done".

If you lead a child to Christ the chance of the parents and rest of family being saved is minimal. If you lead a mother, it is moderate, but if you lead a man, the father, to the Lord, then there is over a 90% chance the family (entire family) will follow. (stats from Campus Crusade I believe)Why? Because God made the man to lead, and when he assumes that role, everything else literally falls into place, as it should, according to GOd's design and plan.

Kate- to answer your question about me posting on this board and why there is nothing wrong with it - I believe the reason I am not convicted of it is because I am not usurping the authority or role of a man on an internet discussion board. I also can gain no glory, recognition, or praise for it. (not in a real sense anyway) In a physical face to face setting, especially a gathering of believers, for me to speak just s freely may indeed be seen as a type of authority, and might hinder a man from taking it. We must first and foremost pray for the women to submit, and for then men in our lives and in our churches to raise up to assume their rightful and God-given authority in the body of believers and in the home. If we did, man, what [b]amazing[/b] things GOd would do through them!!

Influence and authority aren't always the same thing. Women are ALWAYS influential when it comes to faith, just look at mother theresa. She certainly was a fine example of an influential person of the faith. However she wasn't a leader, she was more of a frontliner.

Women are free to have influence in spiritual matters, there's no difference between man and women in that respect, however men have been delegated to leadership and authority. I think it's because men are much quieter and that means there's more of their time is reserved for analyzing the word of God and interpreting it in the way God knows is correct. Women preach the word, but men teach the word. Both are incredibly crucial to the body of Christ.

Dan, I wasn't implying that influence and authority were the same thing, I don't even think they are necessarily related all the time. Women can exert influence without being an authority OVER a man, and they can exert authority and indluence, but doing so in a way that does not do so in place of a man. One interesting story is the case of Deborah, as her fame had spread far and wide. She became a "mother in Israel" (Judg. 4:6, 14; 5:7), and "the children of Israel came up to her for judgment" She summoned Barak from Kadesh to take the command of 10,000 men for battle. He said he wouldn't go without her...so, how can we reconcile her influence and submissive role as a woman? Because she certainly did not violate God's command or his roles for men and women in this case either.

Woman do make very powerful preachers, but they should never be allowed to preach, or teach, a man, in a position of authority. And, someone correct me if I am wrong, but I can't find a single event in scripture that permits or even suggests that a woman can instruct a man in spiritual matters unless she is accompanied by her husband, as was the case with Pricilla and Aquilla. This type of instruction, while she is assuming no authority over the man, she is teaching him, which is also prohibited. So whether it is from a pulpit, in a class, or individual, women are not to teach men. We don't have to like it or even understand it, we must simply accept God's Word as it is, and make no attempt to water down, explain it away due to cultural influences, etc. Because if you open up the "cultural" debate concerning 1st century CHuch vs. Today then you must go that same distance with everything else in scripture: do we still do capital punishment, blood sacrifices, adhere to a strict Sabbath with no work, have women not work outside the home under any circumstances, care for widows in the same manner, etc. I say all this to point out that you can'y have "cafeteria style Christianity" picking and choosing what suits our own beliefs and circumstances, seeking to justify what we want. To do so is sin, and the result, because it stems in SELF and not SPIRIT, is false teaching, EVERY TIME.

So do you mean that I cannot teach anything at my Bible studies because men are present and I have no husband?

Kurieuo wrote:I like to think of it from this angle. Can God use anyone to fulfill His purpose? If He made a donkey talk, then I don't see why a woman would not be able to speak. If a woman meets the same standard as a man in obtainable pastorial qualities, then I believe that woman should be allowed to be a pastor if she desires.

Kurieuo.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. The bible plainly states women aren't to speak in churches. Does this not include being a pastor or minister? Just asking, please correct me if I'm wrong.

jenwat3 wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I like to think of it from this angle. Can God use anyone to fulfill His purpose? If He made a donkey talk, then I don't see why a woman would not be able to speak. If a woman meets the same standard as a man in obtainable pastorial qualities, then I believe that woman should be allowed to be a pastor if she desires.

Kurieuo.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. The bible plainly states women aren't to speak in churches. Does this not include being a pastor or minister? Just asking, please correct me if I'm wrong.

That is correct. In Paul's letter to the Corinthian church he writes women should remain silent, and be submissive. Who are the recipients of Paul's epistle though? What issues could have been going down within the Corinthian church which Paul is attempting to provide a solution to?