Evidence for God from Science

Alanna,....I'm trying to be sensitive to your Catholic faith but I have to mention to you that Mary was not a goddess but a sinner just like you and I. God found favor in her not sinlessness. If you read, I believe in Luke Chapter 2:21-32; Mary and Joseph went to the temple to give their SIN and first born offering. They could not offord a ram or goat but instead they offered doves and pigeons. She does not forgive sins or give out blessings like our Father in heaven. Mary was just a vessel to bring our Christ into the world. She was blessed and highly favored, yet she as well needed a Saviour for her own redemption.

Alanna wrote:"During this special year, the pope also celebrates the 150th anniversary of the "Immaculate Conception" where the Virgin Mary Goddess was declared to have been born without sin, thus giving her another attribute equal to Christ."

I know this is off the current topic, but I gotta coment on this. If you could create your mother, wouldn't you want to create her without sin?

It was Jesus' laying down his life on the cross that saved us, I absolutly agree. And as the bible says, the flesh ALONE is nothing.

' "Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the son of man ascending to where He was before? It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.'"

What words? That you gotta 'eat my flesh and drink my blood' '

And if we ARE justified by faith alone, then what would happen if I commited muder? It wouldn't matter?

God is a just God. Though above all he is a LOVING God, he is also a Just God.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Martin Luther 'condemn'(maybe that's not the right word) the book of James because it contradicted HIS teaching? (that we are justified by faith alone) And it was only accepted by Protestants later on? Can't remember my dates, I've always been bad with dates...

God Bless!
Alanna Witzaney

Alanna It sounds like you are fervent in your Faith. Who was the first Pope? Peter right? Did he realize he was the First Pope? Did he say it in any of his Writings? Did any of the Early Church Fathers BEFORE 325ad say it in any of their Writings? Who first conceived Peter to be the First Pope? Like Poetic_Soul said why would Mary still need to shed Blood for Her Sins? There is no reason if she is already Sinless! I am sinless as well but only through the shedding of Jesus's Blood for my Sins on Calvary! Mary is also Sinless but not because God Created her that way it is because of her Son that Died for her.

We are Justified by Faith Alone!!! If I believe in God would that not make me want to please God? In turn would that not make me do many works for the Glory of his Kingdom? James had it right but FIRST he had the Faith and then he SHOWED people his Works to show his Faith! Everyone can do works, Atheists, Deists, Agnostics, Hindus, Muslims but it is only THROUGH Faith in our Lord Jesus Christ that we can turn those works into great things (little or Big) for the Kingdom.

About Mary and the sacrifice, I just have to say something: humility is a virtue. Pride is a sin. If you don't sacrifice, you are automatically being proud about your unsinful nature which in turn automatically making you a sinner. As such, Mary making a sacrifice would simply be her obeying the Lord's wishes, and does not automatically make her a sinner. Frankly, I think this is a pointless debate as we'll never know the answer for sure.

But we DO the know answer Mastermind... Every human born of man has sinned... "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." So unless the bible were to state that Mary was also born of a virgin like Jesus, then she necessarily was a sinner just like every other person that ever lived.

I'm sure she has sinned at some point in her life. I doubt it was before Jesus's birth though.

i think that the bible does imply that mary was a divine birth.

it makes sense, if she carried the savior, she had to be a more pure vessel than most other people. still, she was human, and humans sin.

i utterly respect her, but don't think it's right to pray to her.

Mastermind;....in the birth of Mary. That right there makes her a sinner in itself. Just because she gave birth to Jesus doesn't mean that she was not in need of a Savior. ( For those that hail, Mary) Nowhere, and I mean nowhere does it say that she is a goddess. Mary and Joseph were just ordinary human beings allowing God to do extra-ordinary things within their lives. If anything Adam and Eve were sinless but we all know what the end result is.

The birth of Mary makes her a sinner? How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Because she was born from the seed of a man. Looking deeper into it you can also say that she comes the same seed everyone else has;....the seed of Adam (in a fallen state). Thus making her a sinner like everyone else. If she was not a sinner at birth, then what would make her obsolete?

Poetic_Soul wrote:Because she was born from the seed of a man. Looking deeper into it you can also say that she comes the same seed everyone else has;....the seed of Adam (in a fallen state). Thus making her a sinner like everyone else. If she was not a sinner at birth, then what would make her obsolete?

You could also say the same about Jesus(on the second point anyway) since he does have a human mother. I don't see how simply being born makes one a sinner.

Jesus didn't come from the seed of a man but of the Holy Spirit. This goes along with Gen 3:14-15. In the OT a child inherited from the father; blessings and curses. It's the same as sin. We inherit what we were born into. Born into sin. Christ bypassed that by not being born from a seed of a man. Christ inherited the charactoristics of the Father;...Holy and Sinless. Thereby being a perfect sacrifice to atone for mankinds downfall. True that Jesus' family tree did trace back to Adam but by way of adoption, not through flesh and blood. Jesus also came from the line of David and look how sinful David was. I wrote a thread about that called IS JESUS CURSED. Check it out. If Jesus came through by way of a mans seed; we would all be doomed.

Mastermind;....this is what I wrote:

Hello everyone. I'm new on the board. I recently had a revelation from God. So I figured that I would bring it to the table. Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” (Deut. 21:23)

Jeremiah 22:24-30 24 "As surely as I live," declares the LORD , "even if you, Jehoiachin [a] son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, were a signet ring on my right hand, I would still pull you off. 25 I will hand you over to those who seek your life, those you fear-to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and to the Babylonians. 26 I will hurl you and the mother who gave you birth into another country, where neither of you was born, and there you both will die. 27 You will never come back to the land you long to return to."

28 Is this man Jehoiachin a despised, broken pot,
an object no one wants?
Why will he and his children be hurled out,
cast into a land they do not know?
29 O land, land, land,
hear the word of the LORD !
30 This is what the LORD says:
"Record this man as if childless,
a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
or rule anymore in Judah."

Being that Jesus is a descendant of Jechiachin (Matt. 1:11); He as well is part of this curse. But the amazing thing about it is that biologically Jesus isn't a descendant yet adopted through Joseph. This just goes to show us how amazing GOD is with His plan of salvation for us and how accurate the Word of God is.

What is your take on Jesus having Elijah baptise him?

I have read through that topic, no need to repost it.

You mean John the Baptist. I believe Jesus being in human form still had to be obedient to the Father. One must remember that Jesus came to serve mankind. And in by showing and being a servent to mankind we can follow and express what was being taught by Christ. Besides;...the baptism was getting Jesus prepared for his 40 day fast in the wilderness.