Evidence for God from Science

ochotseat wrote:Lots of conservative Protestants and Catholics don't dance

Well, I consider myself a conservative Catholic and I have great fun dancing. My parents also fit under the same category, and they dance, too.

By dancing do you mean "freak-dancing," as in dry-humping? I don't do that. Too sexual, of course. But regular dancing... as the saying goes, "Hell yeah!"

Forge wrote: Well, I consider myself a conservative Catholic and I have great fun dancing. My parents also fit under the same category, and they dance, too.

By dancing do you mean "freak-dancing," as in dry-humping? I don't do that. Too sexual, of course. But regular dancing... as the saying goes, "Hell yeah!"

There's another Protestant denomination, which Ashcroft belongs to, that discourages dancing too. I think dancing's fine, but not all dances are equal---the minuet and booty shaking in a g-string aren't the same thing.

I don't think it makes a difference what day we choose as the Sabbath. Sabbath doesn't mean Saturday, it means a Time/Day of Rest. In the NT, after Jesus' death, it was stated that they observed this on the first day (hence why we use Sunday now). In reality, it doesn't make a difference though. The sabbath is to BENEFIT US, *NOT* to benefit God. Maybe it's good the SDA's choose Saturday, as it'd give God something on a Saturday too, since in reality there are large expanses of Christians who are just Sunday Christians unfortunately!


Matt

Dan wrote:

ochotseat wrote:

Prodigal Son wrote:why aren't they allowed to dance?

Lots of conservative Protestants and Catholics don't dance. SDAs may believe in a different concept of the afterlife compared to orthodox Christians, but they are still considered Christians, so why are you listing them under "aberrant Christianity"?

Because they follow a false prophet who contradicts the innerant word of God (the bible).

ummmm however if the BIBLE teaches something Different then that Prophet they do not follow the Prophet as some other Groups do... They just believe in a Few things from what I have seen Different then Us. Remember that in the Early 60's and Before that alot of Churches did not agree with Dancing as well! (Remember the Movie Footloose?)

I'm not an SDA but know a few and have been to a church service, a degree ceremony and holidayed with adventists. I don't know everything and have to say the dancing thing is a new one on me. But anyway...



Adventism all goes back to the Great Dissapointment of 1844. A lot of (American) christians sincerely expected the world to end and when 1 Jan 1845 came around many were very disillusioned. From the aftermath came splinter groups which evolved into what are now called Jehovah Witnesses, SDAs and others.

The SDAs grew up around a prophet, Ellen G White, who began making new prophecies and wrote many books. Those of you who are non-evolution creationists have the SDAs to thank for - they created creationism (excuse the pun!) in the modern sense of the word. Unfortunately for SDAs it all came out in the 1980s that much of Mrs White's work was plagerised from other writers of the day. They had a big crisis, lost lots of their congregation but are now stable at around 6 million followers.

Anyway, some of their beliefs are:

No hell as such - non-believers/sinners etc will die and rise again a thousand years after Christ's return to be blasted into non-existence by god's light.
Heaven is a physical city that will descend from above.
Women wear no make-up or jewelery.
They don't drink alcohol, many are vegetarian or even vegan, and none of them eat pork or shellfish.
They go to church on saturday and believe sunday worship is a big factor in why we are living in the end times.
Non-adventists can be good christians and make it to heaven, although quite how this is compatible with their saturday-sabbath beliefs I don't know.
Some believe Mrs White was a holy woman but not an actual prophet. Most adventists are very cagey about discussing her and like to keep her hidden away!

Also they are not a cult like JWs - they can socialise freely, read and watch what they like - you'll find plenty on the internet for example - and they DO believe in things like the trinity and that Jesus is god (unlike JWs).


I hope that was interesting. I don't promise that my info is perfectly accurate or totally generalisable but it is based on experience and is certainly not completely off the mark!

Blob wrote:I'm not an SDA but know a few and have been to a church service, a degree ceremony and holidayed with adventists. I don't know everything and have to say the dancing thing is a new one on me. But anyway...



Adventism all goes back to the Great Dissapointment of 1844. A lot of (American) christians sincerely expected the world to end and when 1 Jan 1845 came around many were very disillusioned. From the aftermath came splinter groups which evolved into what are now called Jehovah Witnesses, SDAs and others.

The SDAs grew up around a prophet, Ellen G White, who began making new prophecies and wrote many books. Those of you who are non-evolution creationists have the SDAs to thank for - they created creationism (excuse the pun!) in the modern sense of the word. Unfortunately for SDAs it all came out in the 1980s that much of Mrs White's work was plagerised from other writers of the day. They had a big crisis, lost lots of their congregation but are now stable at around 6 million followers.

Anyway, some of their beliefs are:

No hell as such - non-believers/sinners etc will die and rise again a thousand years after Christ's return to be blasted into non-existence by god's light.
Heaven is a physical city that will descend from above.
Women wear no make-up or jewelery.
They don't drink alcohol, many are vegetarian or even vegan, and none of them eat pork or shellfish.
They go to church on saturday and believe sunday worship is a big factor in why we are living in the end times.
Non-adventists can be good christians and make it to heaven, although quite how this is compatible with their saturday-sabbath beliefs I don't know.
Some believe Mrs White was a holy woman but not an actual prophet. Most adventists are very cagey about discussing her and like to keep her hidden away!

Also they are not a cult like JWs - they can socialise freely, read and watch what they like - you'll find plenty on the internet for example - and they DO believe in things like the trinity and that Jesus is god (unlike JWs).


I hope that was interesting. I don't promise that my info is perfectly accurate or totally generalisable but it is based on experience and is certainly not completely off the mark!

Again I am not disagreeing with what you are saying but if you like the read go to http://www.adventist.org

Yes I am familiar with that site and have read a couple of adventist books. However one also needs know Adventists themselves as well as go to non-Adventist sources to get the full picture.

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Why not ask an Adventist?

Dance...it is a personal choice, however the thought behind the "stay away from dancing" is the usual crowd and activities that follow or are included. I've been to plenty of dances in my younger days, and I would have to say that this "stereotype" holds true.

It is only about what can easily influence the young...and it does influence.

Nothing wrong specifically with dancing itself.

This is my personal opinion...and not that of the SDA church itself. It is not at all an exhaustive answer either.
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Hey guys,
very interesting thoughts you have about SDAs...smile...interesting to hear what we believe from people who hasnt really put an effort to investigate it themselves...sounds like not many of you have ever really looked into it yourself but only gotten your thoughts from what others says.

I do have to admit I admire a few of you guys for the remarks you gave...about you should know the whole picture instead of only listening to former adventist who have been expelled or left the church. Just imagine if I went to a former Baptist (could be any church organisation) and asked him about if the Baptists were wrong theologically. Which answer do you think you would get?????
Im afraid you would never get a true picture of what they believe from only asked him or her who left.

As one or two of you said...you have to hear the story from both sides before you can get anything out of it....and even more important you have to study the Bible yourself and not rely on others interpretations. Its sometimes painfull having to admit your are wrong and sometimes it unfortunately it leads to either the person leaving or the church have to expell the person because they are teaching wrong teaching.
Only way to judge if its wrong teaching is from comparing to what the Bible says about it.

You are smart enough to know we have been given a mind and to use it to reason. But we do have to remember the Bible must be interpreting itself. Else we end up with 'Jones town' or 'Waco' experiences where people stopped thinking themselves and they only listened to their leaders.
The same thing counts for when you are having marital problems...you would get a balance picture of what was right or wrong by only listening to one part????

Ild never evaluate your church (or any organisation) only from going to non-Christians or former followers of your church...but Ill talk to both groups...but Ill also study your beliefs before I can say I have a solid basis of information evaluate out from. Its like in our court systems (at least in our western part of the world) were we all are judged according to the law of the country...same thing about the Bible...its our law from which we need to base our beliefs on.

So just a little suggestion maybe you should try talk with some instead of getting your information from people who have left our church. Yes, Im an sincere Adventist who beliefs we by actually talking together we gain much more reliable information about each other and our beliefs. Im definitely not afraid of putting the flag up as I know what Im believing simply from I have studied so far.

I dont claim to know everything about the Bible as I simply dont recall every single detail Ive read. I still studying and Im open for learning new things which sometimes I didnt see at first. This can even happen when reading the same text several time. If I meet an question I dont know the answer to Ill study it and then give you an answer.

Yes I do believe EGW is a prohet...BUT she is NOT supperior to the Bible and the Adventist _doesnt_ set her higher than the Bible as some of you were saying. Some adventist might do...but I can assure you its not the churchs beliefs. Again do I base my experience from just a few people or do I actually look into what the church states it beliefs.

The Bible is Gods word...if I want to lead people to God...I refer them to the Bible. BTW....FYI....EGW refers to her own writtings as them being 'the lesser light leading to the bigger light (the Bible). What does this mean?...it simply means that she tries to describe God and Christ in a way that will touch your heart and hopefully make you want to start studying your Bible yourself.
Her greatest wish was...to let people know what a wonderful God there is living and who loves us unconditionally and who wish we would be willing to sit at the desk being tought about His love portrayed through His word, the Bible.
There is consequences that God wish we would avoid as He tries to protect us but...He gives us a free will to choose to listen to Him or not.

I dont have time at this moment to go through our beliefs. Only thing Ill say now....read your Bibles and pray for guidance from God when you open the book. The Bible should always be read without preconceived ideas/thoughts.
Most importantly it should be read with realization that its Gods word we are talking about (and not something you and I can add or subtract things from without a consequence).
God 'spoke' to the men of Bible and they used human words in order to describe what they were shown or what they experienced in their lifes when following God.
This means you and I cannot take things out of context. You have to let the Bible interpret itself.
Hey guys remember what Christ called many of the priests and theologians of those days? (Matt 23,27) Are they all better today you think? Im afraid not...you need to find out for yourself what is right and wrong...dont base your faith on what others believe but check it out yourself is my advice.

Its better you ask me questions about my beliefs being an Adventist which of many of them actually are the same as most other Bible believing Christians.

Remember keep an open mind...sorry guys this ended up being way too long ...anyway.

Ill be back in town

May you all have a wonderful day...
Your Christian brother,

~DJ
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"Men build too many walls and not enough bridges" --Isaac Newton

"whenever you teach, teach your hearers to doubt whatever you teach"

"If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." --Thomas Jefferson

Welcome LifeisGreat!

Hang around and you'll find people are not prejudiced here. Afterall, they've accepted me!

LifeIsGreat wrote:
Hey guys,
Ill be back in town

May you all have a wonderful day...
Your Christian brother,

I'll come right out and say that I am not that familiar with SDA doctrine, but I surely agree with what you said about looking to the Bible and studying to find your won answers. I don't agree with every entire detail that the leadership in my non-denominational Bible church preaches, but they have the right massage. Remember the church oprganizations are fallible, so if a matter is in question in your own mind, find the answer in God's Word

I don't feel the need to impune various minor doctrinal differences, but want to leave scripture to explain why other denominations can also be acceptable in spite of the fact that I might not agree with some of their teachings. I am aware that adventism includes many teaching organizations incuding schools and universities, and am a little concerened, as perhaps you are be stressing that one should look to the Word of God to test teachings, that this opens the possibility of indoctination in which people are tought not to judge for themselves, but to conform to the teachings of the organization. After all it was from this culture that the Branch Dividians came. I only hope that adventism values independant thought, and does not supress people that may divine things by a different meaning.

I am alarmed by the teaching that Ellen G. White was a prophet, and strongly urge Adventists to reject any teaching that doesn't have Biblical support. David Koresh also claimed to be a prophet didn't he. The Bible teaches that false prophets will bring taching that is worng, so I would be very careful of these outside teachings.


Romans 14

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Sorry it's long, but it really applies to bickering between denominations.

Jbuza wrote:I am alarmed by the teaching that Ellen G. White was a prophet, and strongly urge Adventists to reject any teaching that doesn't have Biblical support. David Koresh also claimed to be a prophet didn't he. The Bible teaches that false prophets will bring taching that is worng, so I would be very careful of these outside teachings.

That was a self proclaim...I'm not aware of EGW ever claiming to be a "prophet".

BTW...if it wasn't apparent from my last post on this thread...I'm also an Adventist...
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BavarianWheels wrote:

Jbuza wrote:I am alarmed by the teaching that Ellen G. White was a prophet, and strongly urge Adventists to reject any teaching that doesn't have Biblical support. David Koresh also claimed to be a prophet didn't he. The Bible teaches that false prophets will bring taching that is worng, so I would be very careful of these outside teachings.

That was a self proclaim...I'm not aware of EGW ever claiming to be a "prophet".

BTW...if it wasn't apparent from my last post on this thread...I'm also an Adventist...
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I gathered that. I have no problem with denominations, but their individual teachings are less important than Biblical teachings. I feel that the chapter in Hebrews that I posted indicates that one has to interpret within their own mind and by their own reason, and live by what they feel is true. I try not to ditch on the denominations to much .

I guess that really goes back to EGW saying that her teachings are a lesser light and point toward the Holy Bible. Like I said I disagree with teachings within my own church, and expect that if I study what EGW said I would find points to disagree with, but I don't think these minor differences, like day of Worship, are important.

Jbuza wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Jbuza wrote:I am alarmed by the teaching that Ellen G. White was a prophet, and strongly urge Adventists to reject any teaching that doesn't have Biblical support. David Koresh also claimed to be a prophet didn't he. The Bible teaches that false prophets will bring taching that is worng, so I would be very careful of these outside teachings.

That was a self proclaim...I'm not aware of EGW ever claiming to be a "prophet".

BTW...if it wasn't apparent from my last post on this thread...I'm also an Adventist...
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I gathered that. I have no problem with denominations, but their individual teachings are less important than Biblical teachings. I feel that the chapter in Hebrews that I posted indicates that one has to interpret within their own mind and by their own reason, and live by what they feel is true. I try not to ditch on the denominations to much .

I guess that really goes back to EGW saying that her teachings are a lesser light and point toward the Holy Bible. Like I said I disagree with teachings within my own church, and expect that if I study what EGW said I would find points to disagree with, but I don't think these minor differences, like day of Worship, are important.

One should humble themselves. It is possible to misinterpret the Bible for oneself, and in effect you make yourself a false prophet.

Keep an open dialog, and know that somethings in life will remain a mystery.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:One should humble themselves. It is possible to misinterpret the Bible for oneself, and in effect you make yourself a false prophet.

Keep an open dialog, and know that somethings in life will remain a mystery.

I agree. The difference is when one claims to speak for the LORD, hence "Prophet". This is the problem I have with accepting teaching from others. I look to the Bible for my answers, and am skeptical of White, The Pope, Dave Koresh, Jim Jones, etc etc. In case you hadn't read the passage I will post it again, as I believe it clearly dictates that one is responsible for ones own beliefs, and if one is convinced wiht one's own mind to observe a thing or not, than it would be a sin not to follow what one is convinced is right.

Romans 14

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.