Evidence for God from Science

vvart wrote:I can't help but laugh because your using circular reasoning. See christians assume Jesus is the messiah then the go back to the Tanach and say oh yeah that's gotta be talking about Jesus. Really the evidence to show Jesus being the Messiah has to be on Christians.

I don't have time now thanks to exams but I plan to study the prophecies and write a paper on why Jesus is the Messiah. All the twisting that your links have done cannot go unanswered.

Jewish people since Muslims were the only people in history to have the concept of a formless non-corporeal God. Also not just that, but the Jewish Messiah is unlike that of any religion EVER. See Jesus isn't that special, in fact he's similar to figures like Buddha, Mithra and many others throughout pagan history who supposedly "save" humanity. However the Jewish messiah has nothing to do with saving people, that's not his role nor will it ever be.

* Buddha isn't a pagan figure.
* If anything, Mithra copied Jesus
* Neither one "saved" anybody.
* I'm sure the apostles just sat down with every single ancient text and tried their best to make up a character that could be easily recognized as being of a pagan nature. Hell, they even ripped off aztec gods like quatzeqoatl. Damn those apostles must have been persistent to have made it in places they didn't even know about.

And how am I using circular reasoning(assuming your example was one of circular reasoning, which it wasn't)? I already stated I couldn't care less about the prophecies. Jesus made the one truly verifiable prophecy and it came true to me. That's enough, as far as I'm concerned, to make Him the Messiah.

yes and Jesus didn't "save" anyone anymore than Buddha, who by the way could be viewed as a pagan figure since Buddhists have been known to worship images of him.

Do as you wish, it won't matter cause your interpretation of the OT will do what it takes to defend Jesus even if that's clearly not what's being said by Prophets.

Look my whole point has been and always will be that Jesus wasn't the JEWISH messiah. Just like Buddha is thought to be the savior for Buddhists, so is Jesus for Christians. However, Jews never have had a need for a savior figure as God has always been their savior. Also I don't know any serious scholars who believe that christianity ripped off pagan religions from the americas, but most do believe that there are pagan influences.

Who say's apostles made up Jesus, he existed and they followed him, but so did a bunch of people who claimed to be the messiah and they also had followers, so why not defend them? What is much more likely is that Jesus was a normal guy, a rebel, prophet, etc. Then after his death, his followers (who are anonomyous) began to add pagan influences into the Jesus story, i.e. virgin birth, resurrection, water to wine (dionysus), certain sayings and phrases etc.

Now there is resurrection in Judaism, but not like in the gospels. The concept of a god-man that was slain for sin and rose from the grave is pagan.

Since you enjoy making Jesus look like a pagan copycat, let's see how you handle this:


When baby Moses was three months old, according to the biblical story, he was placed in a basket of bulrushes upon the river's edge, rescued by an Egyptian princess, nursed by his natural mother, raised as a prince and trained in the temple mysteries.


This closely parallels the stories of Romulus, Bacchus, Osiris, Krishna and that of Sargon who , preceding Moses by hundreds of years, laid the foundations of civilization for the first Semitic empire.
Let's dissect first the similarities between the Moses birth story and that of Sargon. Inscribed on fragments of Babylonian tile:


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/2300sargon1.html

Sargona, the king of Akkad am I,
My mother was a princess, my father I did not know.
My mother , the princess, conceieved me, in difficulty she brought me forth.
She placed me in an ark of rushes, with bitumen my exit she sealed up.
She launched me in the river, which did not drown me.
The river carried me, to Akki the water-carrier it brought me....

Sargon, King of Accad about 2300 BC, as shown by his monuments yet existing, was also secretly born, was placed by his mother in an ark of bullrushes, just like Moses, and turned adrift on the Euphrates, where he was found by a kindly gardener(as also were Romulus and Remus, born of the god Mars and the vestial virgin, Rhea Silvia). It goes on to say that the gardener nurtured him until his birth was discovered; he became the beloved of the princess goddess Ishtar, who protected him, and he was raised by his valorous deeds to the throne of his country, becomig a great leader and saviour of his people.

best,

I guarantee I can find paralels to every single biblical character in ancient myths OLDER than judaism that far surpass the flimsy evidence I've seen against Jesus. If, by your logic, Jesus was made out of pagan influences, then Judaism is paganism incarnate.

Well, if there are pagan influences in Judaism (which there may very well be) it doesn't effect the structure of Judaism. We've gone over this before, but Judiasm doesn't claim to be exclusive. Christianity, however does, and has a problem. The pagan similarities refutes the whole 'jesus is the only way' concept.

vvart wrote:Well, if there are pagan influences in Judaism (which there may very well be) it doesn't effect the structure of Judaism. We've gone over this before, but Judiasm doesn't claim to be exclusive. Christianity, however does, and has a problem. The pagan similarities refutes the whole 'jesus is the only way' concept.

No, they do not. For all I know, Jesus performed the same miracles that pagan gods did to show them that He is more than a match for them. small miracles hardly pose a problem. You have a problem, however, when moses:

A) Was put in a basket on a river, just like sargona
B) They were both rescued and left in the hands of a princess
C) They both becamse great leaders of their nations

It's even worse with krishna who PARTED THE SEA IN TWO to get his people to safety! It's not that judaism had pagan "influences", when you look at the documentation many of its events are ripped right off of other myths!

Again i fail to understand how this helps to support the idea that Jesus is the Jewish messiah. How many times do i have to say, Judaism doesn't claim to be exclusive, Christianity does even though a thousands of religions are highly similar in concept (Buddhism, Hinduism (Trinity), Greek religions, etc.)

This is one of the many reason's Rabbi's don't go around converting people. They simple don't need too as the whole concept of "if i don't believe this i'm going to get eternally tortured, is utterly silly".

vvart wrote:Again i fail to understand how this helps to support the idea that Jesus is the Jewish messiah. How many times do i have to say, Judaism doesn't claim to be exclusive, Christianity does even though a thousands of religions are highly similar in concept (Buddhism, Hinduism (Trinity), Greek religions, etc.)

This is one of the many reason's Rabbi's don't go around converting people. They simple don't need too as the whole concept of "if i don't believe this i'm going to get eternally tortured, is utterly silly".

Hinduism has no trinity. And what does this have to do with Judaic exclusivity. I'm saying they stole myths from other cultures and adapted them. If Moses was made up, why should we believe anything they say? Are you saying it doesn't matter if Judaism is all rehashed pagan myths?

actually your mistaken, Hinduism has whats called a Trimurti and thats very similar to the Trinity which consists of Shiva, Vishnu, and Brahma which are all manifestations of the Brahman. Now its not exactly the same obviously, but the similarity is uncanning.

Just because the story of Moses possible has some pagan influences doesn't mean Moses never existed. Am i claiming Jesus never existed? no not at all, so i still don't see what your point is. The thing is saying Christianity is the 'only path to salvation for everyone' makes no sense if their are such parallels between christianity and pagan religions. Judaism however doesn't claim to be the "path to salvation" unless your Jewish of course because the Covenant made by Moses was specifically to the Jewish people.

vvart wrote:actually your mistaken, Hinduism has whats called a Trimurti and thats very similar to the Trinity which consists of Shiva, Vishnu, and Brahma which are all manifestations of the Brahman. Now its not exactly the same obviously, but the similarity is uncanning.

The similarity only is that they are 3, but the hindu pantheon has far more than just 3 deities. Not to mention the fact that the Trimurti operates a bit differently from the trinity. I'd also like to remind you that there is no guarantee that the Christian God is triune. The OT mentions the holy spirit and the father, then jesus comes and we now have 3 parts of God. Maybe there are more. We only know of 3.

Just because the story of Moses possible has some pagan influences doesn't mean Moses never existed. Am i claiming Jesus never existed? no not at all, so i still don't see what your point is. The thing is saying Christianity is the 'only path to salvation for everyone' makes no sense if their are such parallels between christianity and pagan religions. Judaism however doesn't claim to be the "path to salvation" unless your Jewish of course because the Covenant made by Moses was specifically to the Jewish people.

Christianity says no such thing either. If you've never heard of Jesus, obviously you're not Christian but you won't be damned automatically either. Come on vvart, you should know better. And it's more about the story of Moses having Pagan influences. His entire life seems to be a pagan influence. By the same standards, he is also false. Debunking him is as lethal to judaism as debunking Jesus is to Christianity.

Again your not understanding Hinduism, all the Gods are manifestations of the one god Brahman, so hinduism is really about as monotheistic as christianity. Yes your right their Trimurti operates slightly differently but still its basically the same thing.

Christianity says no such thing either. If you've never heard of Jesus, obviously you're not Christian but you won't be damned automatically either. Come on vvart, you should know better. And it's more about the story of Moses having Pagan influences. His entire life seems to be a pagan influence. By the same standards, he is also false. Debunking him is as lethal to judaism as debunking Jesus is to Christianity.

Actually thanks for pointing that out, I said covenant moses made with the Jews but really its the Covenant God makes with the Jews. Yes according to the Torah, Moses was the greatest prophet, however Judaism doesn't revolve around any figure as christianity does. So really debunking Moses or any of the prophets wouldn't matter. Judaism revolves around the Torah and God, in fact the Saduccees (yes i know they persecuted people) rejected pretty much all the prophets and were all about the Torah or Laws of God. Debunking Moses how? its very clear he existed just as it is with Jesus. Christians however claim Jesus is the haMoshiach or "the messiah" and being the messiah is something that definitely can be debunked. So its matter of Christianity being an easier religion to proof wrong because it claims to be a fulfillment of one of the tenents of Judaism.

vvart wrote:Again your not understanding Hinduism, all the Gods are manifestations of the one god Brahman, so hinduism is really about as monotheistic as christianity. Yes your right their Trimurti operates slightly differently but still its basically the same thing.

So the trimurti isn't really composed of 3 members, but of every single God? Then it doesn't have much in common with the trinity...

Actually thanks for pointing that out, I said covenant moses made with the Jews but really its the Covenant God makes with the Jews. Yes according to the Torah, Moses was the greatest prophet, however Judaism doesn't revolve around any figure as christianity does. So really debunking Moses or any of the prophets wouldn't matter. Judaism revolves around the Torah and God, in fact the Saduccees (yes i know they persecuted people) rejected pretty much all the prophets and were all about the Torah or Laws of God.

The Saduccees were also wrong and died out with the rise of Islam. However, the fact that Judaism is so elusive also means it's a waste of time to become a member of it. Again, give me one good reason to take up a religion that grants me the benefits whether I'm part of it or not.

Debunking Moses how? its very clear he existed just as it is with Jesus.

Do any historians of his time mention Moses? Moses is far too old to get proof positive of his existance, unless we find a tomb that says "moses is here"

Christians however claim Jesus is the haMoshiach or "the messiah" and being the messiah is something that definitely can be debunked. So its matter of Christianity being an easier religion to proof wrong because it claims to be a fulfillment of one of the tenents of Judaism.

Christianity is extremely difficult to prove wrong to one who has recieved the holy spirit. The fact remains that Jesus fulfilled His promise to me. Anything else is just filling.

So the trimurti isn't really composed of 3 members, but of every single God? Then it doesn't have much in common with the trinity...

Ok, i'm not an expert but this is how Hinduism works:

Brahman is God, and God is everything in Hinduism. There is only one God, and this God makes up everything. Any deities that Brahman manifests itself in would still be Brahman.

It's very similar to christianity in that Brahman of hinduism has 3 main manifestations, although as you noted its different in that he technically has 1000's of others.

The Saduccees were also wrong and died out with the rise of Islam. However, the fact that Judaism is so elusive also means it's a waste of time to become a member of it. Again, give me one good reason to take up a religion that grants me the benefits whether I'm part of it or not.

Judaism is really for the Jews, I would see no reason for you to convert to Judaism. It why Rabbi's don't go around trying to convert people.

Christianity is extremely difficult to prove wrong to one who has recieved the holy spirit. The fact remains that Jesus fulfilled His promise to me. Anything else is just filling.

time will tell, but whether Christianity is wrong or not won't matter all too much unless of course your big on the whole Hell/Heaven concept which really is foreign to the OT. Yes the OT talks about Sheol (grave), but its description is far different from the eternal torment by fire of the NT.
Also the concept of the christian hell could come from various sources, the only Jewish source that it could come from would be the Essenes, who wrote about God taking up Enoch. They had a vast library of literature with a metaphorical hell.

vvart wrote:

So the trimurti isn't really composed of 3 members, but of every single God? Then it doesn't have much in common with the trinity...

Ok, i'm not an expert but this is how Hinduism works:

Brahman is God, and God is everything in Hinduism. There is only one God, and this God makes up everything. Any deities that Brahman manifests itself in would still be Brahman.

It's very similar to christianity in that Brahman of hinduism has 3 main manifestations, although as you noted its different in that he technically has 1000's of others.

You realise Judaism also has two manifestations of God, right? There is the spirit of God and there is the LORD.

time will tell, but whether Christianity is wrong or not won't matter all too much unless of course your big on the whole Hell/Heaven concept which really is foreign to the OT. Yes the OT talks about Sheol (grave), but its description is far different from the eternal torment by fire of the NT.
Also the concept of the christian hell could come from various sources, the only Jewish source that it could come from would be the Essenes, who wrote about God taking up Enoch. They had a vast library of literature with a metaphorical hell.

Not a lot of Christians believe in a literal fiery Hell. As far as I can tell, Sheol is hell.

You realise Judaism also has two manifestations of God, right? There is the spirit of God and there is the LORD.

Ah, not necessarily. The spirit of God in Judaism is not a manifestation of God, but rather refers to the presence of God. This would then be called the shekinah, which traditionally only referred to God's presence in the temple, but if we refer to his presence outside of the temple it may be the same term, or a different one. Afterall, God is one, to divide God into 'god' and 'spirit of god' would be to divide God into having two parts.

Yet, the question that you're asking is very difficult, and I'm not sure that Jews all have the answers to this. Concepts like the shekinah, and the nature of God, are pretty deep and I don't think everyone agrees. Kabbalah is the whole system of Jewish mysticism that deals with answering these kinds of questions.

Not a lot of Christians believe in a literal fiery Hell. As far as I can tell, Sheol is hell.

Well, there is no parallel to the christian hell in Judaism. There are various afterlife concepts, but in Judaism, there is no set idea of the afterlife, heaven, etc.
The reason for this is because Judaism teaches that this life is simply to be lived to the best of our ability, rather than to worry about an afterlife. It teaches that God will take care of the afterlife. Most Jews also believe in a heaven, I don't know any that believe in a hell. Sheol simply means the grave, i.e. where everyone goes when they die. You get buried in the ground, the grave.