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Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:06 am
by j316
Mastermind wrote:<b>Why don't you ask St Augustine about free will vs determinism. Your response was just a sideways slide out of the question, what you have to deal with is the issue of omnipotence.</b>
How was it a sideways slide out of the question? You are the one making idiotic assumptions that make God a sinner just like voicingmaster pointed out. Who is really sliding out?
<b>Angels were messengers of God, why would a messenger have free will? And even if he had free will how could he alter the will of an omnipotent creator?</b>
Why not? Are you saying God made Satan to rebel and punished him for something God did in the first place? And who said he could alter the will of an omnipotent creator? Just because God is more powerful does not mean lucifer couldn't try. Remember, PRIDE was his downfall. He THOUGHT he could do it.
<b>Does the temptation of man make God a sinner? Not if it served a divine purpose.</b>
No, but predetermining somebody's future to cause evil then punishing him for it DOES make God a sinner.
<b>MM, there is very little scripture on the subject of angels and not much more on free will vs determinism. There is something noble in man's defiance of an omnipotent God but I don't think that man will prevail in the end. However I do feel that all of that is part of a plan and perhaps the end has not yet been written, what could God fear from us?
I have to retire now,[ perhaps a side effect of the fall?] but it has been fun.LOL</b>
Most of this stuff has nothing to do with anything. The fact remains that if determinism exists, God is evil for punishing creatures whose evil deeds he commanded!
You are awfully quick to characterize what other people say in uncomplimentary and usually derogatory terms. To me this indicates a arrogance not particularly becoming in someone who professes to be a master of of anything, you need to chill a little.
The question of omnipotence vs free will is central to an understanding of the question of sin. You could say that God created us to sin since we apparently did, does that make us and satan innocent victims of a sinning God?
One way out of this problem is to simply make the end indeterminate, we all just duke it out and whoever wins, wins.
I don't know the ultimate answer to this question so I am not going to characterize anyones opinion on it. I do know that you are called to God, you don't just walk in and demand to be saved, what does that do to your free will? I think free will is actually only free won't, the end is determined and our lives are really only the details in the overall plan.
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:20 am
by Mastermind
<b>You are awfully quick to characterize what other people say in uncomplimentary and usually derogatory terms. To me this indicates a arrogance not particularly becoming in someone who professes to be a master of of anything, you need to chill a little.</b>
No, I'm fine. I only begin to be "uncomplimentary" when other people try to offend me first.
<b>The question of omnipotence vs free will is central to an understanding of the question of sin. You could say that God created us to sin since we apparently did, does that make us and satan innocent victims of a sinning God?</b>
No, because God did not actually make us sin. If I leave my gate open and some idiot walks into my yard, falls into the pool and drowns, is it my fault?
<b>One way out of this problem is to simply make the end indeterminate, we all just duke it out and whoever wins, wins.
I don't know the ultimate answer to this question so I am not going to characterize anyones opinion on it. I do know that you are called to God, you don't just walk in and demand to be saved, what does that do to your free will? I think free will is actually only free won't, the end is determined and our lives are really only the details in the overall plan.</b>
Yes, actually, you do walk in and ask to be saved. That's the whole point!
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:32 am
by j316
How is it perfectly all right to create a being capable of sinning and then condemn it for doing exactly what it was capable of doing? Particularly when it did so in ignorance of the consequences. It is true that Adam and Eve were warned, but were they capable of understanding the implications of the warning, or even more, were they even capable of heeding it at all?
It is not as simple as you think. In answer to your example about the pool, the quick answer is yes. If you have a risk of injury on your property and you fail to secure it you can and will be held liable for it.
Why do you feel that christianity and determinism cannot coexist? You are fighting a lot of scripture. The beginning was ordained and the ending is ordained, the actual working out of it is all that is flexible. Yet the divine plan is always in operation guiding it to completion. There is no determinism in that? How about in revelation where it refers to 'those whose names were in the book of the living from before the world began? Again no determinism?
And no I don't believe that you simply decide to be saved, I don't think it is your decision alone. I think all you really do is answer a call.
Much ado is often made about free will. Why would a servant of God need free will? The only reason I can think of would be to freely choose to obey His will. Once that decision is made the issue is gone. In some ways the devil can be seen as the embodiment of free will, we all know where he is going, so is free will a good thing?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:40 am
by Mastermind
j316 wrote:How is it perfectly all right to create a being capable of sinning and then condemn it for doing exactly what it was capable of doing? Particularly when it did so in ignorance of the consequences. It is true that Adam and Eve were warned, but were they capable of understanding the implications of the warning, or even more, were they even capable of heeding it at all?
Because God does not FORCE them. They CHOOSE to do it. Why is it God's fault for somebody else's CHOICE?
It is not as simple as you think. In answer to your example about the pool, the quick answer is yes. If you have a risk of injury on your property and you fail to secure it you can and will be held liable for it.
I didn't ask for the legal view. I asked if it's my fault. I don't think it is because I didn't throw anybody in the pool. They had no business being in my yard to begin with.
Why do you feel that christianity and determinism cannot coexist? You are fighting a lot of scripture. The beginning was ordained and the ending is ordained, the actual working out of it is all that is flexible. Yet the divine plan is always in operation guiding it to completion. There is no determinism in that? How about in revelation where it refers to 'those whose names were in the book of the living from before the world began? Again no determinism?
Some parts being ordained does not equate into determinism. Determinism means EVERYTHING has been predetermined. And I don't care if God chose to make some people good. What I do care is the potential idea that God made people evil with no chance to turn back, which is what determinism supports and what I consider blasphemy.
And no I don't believe that you simply decide to be saved, I don't think it is your decision alone. I think all you really do is answer a call.
I decided to take the first step. God saves us.
Much ado is often made about free will. Why would a servant of God need free will? The only reason I can think of would be to freely choose to obey His will.
You just answered your own question.
Once that decision is made the issue is gone.
Once we die the issue is gone. We can still change our minds (just look at vvart).
In some ways the devil can be seen as the embodiment of free will, we all know where he is going, so is free will a good thing?
Explani this to me: if there is no free will, how is God justified in throwing beings that are evil because He made them that way into hell?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:04 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers
Determinism and Christianity are completely opposed to each other as M&M said. Christianity says it is up to the sinner to repent, and it is the sinner's fault if he goes to hell because he didn't repent (and maybe the fault of someone who didn't witness, of course). Determinism says, we have no free will, we have no ability to do what we want...we are robots. And, as is obvious to everyone, there is free will.
How about in revelation where it refers to 'those whose names were in the book of the living from before the world began?
God doesn't live in our time. He can pop into our timeline if He wants, but from His point of view, Moses can still be splitting the Red Sea and the apocolypse is already over with. The names were written in the book in the beginning, because He could already see that's what would happen.
Why would a servant of God need free will?
God doesn't want robots, He wants people and angels to willingly do what He tells them to.
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:05 pm
by Felgar
j316 wrote: And no I don't believe that you simply decide to be saved, I don't think it is your decision alone. I think all you really do is answer a call.
One thing to clarify: we don't decide to be saved, we decide to accept God saving us. MM's right there. But nevertheless, it's still a decision. Bearing that one objection in mind, I agree with the statement, that what we're doing is answering the call.
You forgot one thing though, that all are called. And since all are called, everyone has the decision whether to stand with God or against Him. Will God ever force someone to choose against Him? Absolutely not!
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:54 pm
by j316
Mastermind wrote:j316 wrote:How is it perfectly all right to create a being capable of sinning and then condemn it for doing exactly what it was capable of doing? Particularly when it did so in ignorance of the consequences. It is true that Adam and Eve were warned, but were they capable of understanding the implications of the warning, or even more, were they even capable of heeding it at all?
Because God does not FORCE them. They CHOOSE to do it. Why is it God's fault for somebody else's CHOICE?
The reason I made this point is that as you get older you begin to wonder just how much choice you actually have. You don't grow up in a vacuum and you aren't taught by robots. You are living in a fallen creation and most of what you see and experience is false. If God didn't call you out of it I wonder how many would actually make it.
I know I answered my own question, I just wanted to see if there would be any additional input. Also don't assume that I believe everything I say, I will often take a position for the sake of argument. I don't believe in full determinism for instance, but it brings you all out if I pose it the way I did.
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:46 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers
You are living in a fallen creation and most of what you see and experience is false.
That still has traces of its Creator.
Re: Who was in the garden with Adam & Eve?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:47 pm
by Battlehelmet
Dan wrote:Was it the God Almighty, the Father of our Lord?
If it is, doesn't that mean Adam & Eve saw God? Wouldn't that mean they would've died? If that's not the case, how come we are allowed second chances even though man saw God face to face?
Yes, I believe so.With caution, I don't really know the answers to your latter questions.
Was it Jesus Christ?
My faith is to a point where I believe that Jesus is the God of Abraham.
Could it be that Jesus Christ was the one in the garden who was with Adam & Eve, because we may see our Lord without dieing, and those who see him still get second chances?
Possibly.You're not exactly clear but is was the serpent in the garden of God who tempted Adam & Eve.The same character that tempted Christ in the desert for 40 days in Matthew.Also attaches this attribute of "Satan" or the"character" of the serpent can be applied to further NT references as well.
My reasoning is this: Angels don't get second chances if they mess up because they have seen God the Father face to face. So when Adam & Eve messed up, they couldn't have seen Him because that would mean they saw Him face to face and so shouldn't be allowed second chances. However, if it was Jesus Christ our Lord who was in the garden with them, this is resolved because man CAN see Jesus Christ face to face without dieing and CAN get second chances after witnessing His glory and denying Him.
Your thoughts?
Jesus as a loving and merciful God.
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:49 pm
by Battlehelmet
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:You are living in a fallen creation and most of what you see and experience is false.
That still has traces of its Creator.
Which should lead directly the precise authorship of DNA that instructs biological life as we know it. OEC creationism and ID is likely become harder and harder to refute or disprove.Does anyone want me to make thread on this topic?
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:58 am
by Poetic_Soul
Mastermind said:
No, because God did not actually make us sin. If I leave my gate open and some ***** walks into my yard, falls into the pool and drowns, is it my fault?
By state law you would be at fault.
Adam and Eve had a one on one/ face to face relationship before the fall. That relationship was broken after the piled up lies and the blame game that Adam and Eve committed. I truely believe that if they had repented things would have been fine.
Secondly, in order to fall from grace, there must be temptation in existance. Satan tempted Adam and Eve with his piled up lies and deceit. When Satan rebelled in heaven, who tempted him? No one. This is why angels can not be forgiven. It has nothing to do with seeing God.
[/b]
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:49 pm
by Battlehelmet
Did someone overlook my post?
What is the logical conlcusion between Mastermind and whoever he is arguing with? Why is there an argument in the first place?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:13 am
by Mastermind
Battlehelmet wrote:Did someone overlook my post?
Probably. Can you blame them?
What is the logical conlcusion between Mastermind and whoever he is arguing with? Why is there an argument in the first place?
How about reading through and drawing your own conclusions?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:09 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers
Poetic_Soul wrote:Mastermind said:
No, because God did not actually make us sin. If I leave my gate open and some ***** walks into my yard, falls into the pool and drowns, is it my fault?
By state law you would be at fault.
Adam and Eve had a one on one/ face to face relationship before the fall. That relationship was broken after the piled up lies and the blame game that Adam and Eve committed. I truely believe that if they had repented things would have been fine.
Secondly, in order to fall from grace, there must be temptation in existance. Satan tempted Adam and Eve with his piled up lies and deceit. When Satan rebelled in heaven, who tempted him? No one. This is why angels can not be forgiven. It has nothing to do with seeing God.
[/b]
Where on earth are you responsible for some stranger drowning in your pool after he tresspasses on your property!?
who was there with Adam and Eve?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 2:59 pm
by Anonymous
I believe that the Hebrews created the creation story of the earth and Adam and Eve to set a moral tone and basis for their culture and developing society.
My Jewish friends say that with no one alive for millions of years while the earth was being formed, there would be no eyewitnesses to the 6 or 7 day creation story.