Evidence for God from Science

J316 probably knows and certainly should know we are discussing the most contentious evangelical issue . So lets not 'pussyfoot' the issue and let it all hang out. I am quite prepared to share with readers a very accusing put- down and my response. After the heat, perhaps a little light will come.

CHARISMATIC TENSIONS

It makes me very sad to discover everywhere that the Charismatic renewal movement still remains a constant tension in our church. There is no doubt we are moving into an ultra-fundamentalism. I notice similarities in the politics of many western countries. This frightens me, because the whole approach underlines fear rather than faith and trust! It cuts itself off from others who think differently, it cuts itself off from the community and the world around us. Joyfully I recall that my upbringing in the church and at home taught that heaven' and earth belong together.

Charismatic renewal is dangerous. It splits churches and families. The
whole concept rests on a false theology, because faith does not rely on our
experience but upon Christ, His death and resurrection. It rests on what
God has done outside us. It is "an objective faith ---. Pentecostalism reverses
this and makes it a subjective experience which is the test of faith. Faith
comes to depend on wonders, healings, miracles, on signs and proofs which the believer can see and marvel at. Charismatic renewal derives its doctrine from Pentecostalism. Man has to act all the time looking for something extra" but Jesus said: "No man can come to Me, except the Father draws him" (John 6:44 ' ). What a joy to discover such a faith. God acts, man responds! So the Reformed doctrine of faith alone, grace alone, Christ alone, are all rejected and the central New Testament truth of justification by faith is emptied of all meaning. The insistence of baptism by the Holy Spirit as an experience, subsequent to conversion is to deny the all -sufficiency of Christ!

It is a false spirituality, intensely introspective and subjective. Its followers feel their spiritual pulse and watch their spiritual temperature. This greatly uplifts the ego and generates pride. If the speaker has experienced "tongues" then he is in. He has entered the realm of experience, which is considered to be superior to the realm of faith.

It is a false love because it includes only those people who are on the same wavelength. In Europe they call it emotional overheating! Pentecostalism is already breaking apart. It is said there are over 700 different Pentecostal denominations in California. The original church is now incredibly fragmented and the wastage rate is enormous, something also true in New Zealand.

In two large mental institutions in the United States between 80 percent and 90 percent of the patients are from branches of the Christian church which practise speaking in tongues. I am confident that the intensity of this renewal will level out and my message of love for you all is: Don't wrestle with the Spirit but allow the Spirit to wrestle with you and me, so that we can come nearer to Him and towards each other and the world may discover that the Kingdom of God is at hand. To God be the glory!

Willi de Ruiter

The editor
The Outlook
Wellington
Dear Sir,

Not for a long time have I seen a letter in the Outlook as viciously uncharitable and untrue as that under the heading of Charismatic Tensions and over the name of Wim de Ruiter.

To take the most serious allegation first. He says: "In two large mental institutions in the United States between eighty and ninety per cent of the patients are from branches of the Christian church which practise speaking in tongues." I challenge him to name the institutions and prove his claims. Such a possibility might have existed somewhere in the Soviet Union. There Alexander Solzinitsyn could give us some reasons for that in the form of Satanic persecution.

If it is true that there are over 700 different Pentecostal denominations in California, so what? This does not mean that they are estrangeded from each other. Most Pentecostal churches believe in full local autonomy. Even Wim de Ruiter must agree that the name "Presbyterian" over the door of a church does not guarantee a uniformity of doctrine or form of worship. It is my belief that God cares nothing about denominational labels. His Church (with a capital C) is made up of born again, saved by grace, new creatures in Christ. While your writer talks of fragmentation he will have to admit that the largest single local church in the world is an Assembly of God (Pentecostal) Church in Seoul, Korea. It has currently ( then - much more now) 200,000 members and new believers are added at the rate of one every 7 minutes!

His accusation of ultra-fundamentalism could be turned on his own head where he charges that "the Reformed doctrine of faith alone, grace alone, Christ alone, are all rejected . Utter bunkum! Every born-again Charismatic embraces these truths. He reminds me of the two ultra- conservative Free Presbyterian ministers who wrote to the newspapers to debunk Billy Graham's converts because Billy's views on conversion could not be tied to the Westminster Confession of faith. I like what some other ministers wrote in reply.

I quote: ---One feels like saying 'sour grapes'. Having personal knowledge of the changed lives of converts from the previous campaign, who are still giving every proof of the regenerating power of Christ in their lives, one can only presume that the Holy Spirit is unaware of the solemnity of the Westminster Confession of Faith. Converts who have experienced a real change of heart will not be over-concerned as to the doctrinal correctness of the faith that proved operative at the time rnethinks" .
Wim de Ruiter likewise will be totally unconvincing to Charismatic Christians who have entered into more of God's fullness. Believe it or not, tongues, miracles, healings and liberated worship were all part of the New Testament experience! Charismatics are not better, they are better off! A Scottish Presbyterian could tell Mr de Ruiter that ' its better felt than telt,'

Dale Tooley

While I do believe charismatic gifts exist, I believe the majority are copycat cases. For example, people barking like a God, the laughter, tongues, interpretation of them and so forth. You yourself said you attended a church where they were convinced they saw gold glitter and you saw nothing. Couldn't it have been a case of a lack of faith on your part? (just kidding) In addition, the most amazing gift of all (at least to me) is healing. Such a gift would bring a great deal of deliverance to people, but it seems to be the least given and a lot who claim to have it appear to put on a cherade. For example, the so called prophet and healer who is out the front who starts talking, "I can feel someone in the audience. The Spirit of God is telling me there is someone with a back problem. You know who you are. Come out the front. The Spirit is drawing you and wants you healed TODAY." Now how many people would have a back problem in an audience of 200 or so people? You'd likely be safe even with 10 people. Such seems more like what I'd expect of psychics. On the other hand, the more challenging healing problems are either dodged by the person who claims to possess the gift of healing, or remain after they've prayed for them. I've seen a elders with a pastor gaim enough to try healing a lame person on a "healing night." I'm certain they sincerely thought they could heal the person, and I can only wonder whether they truly thought the man was healed even though he never walked, or if they were left extremely challenged in their faith. Now while gifts may be true, and some can sincerely have them, I see in the majority where they are used, such gifts are not real. Infact I have not seen one person who I'd be willing to bet on as having a true spiritual gift such as tongues, prophecy, or healing although I've always heard much gossip of authentic cases. And where they are not real, such gifts really have the power to tear Christians aparts and challenge a person's faith, and I've witnessed it happen.

So after all that, it seems to me that the gifts most easy to be faked or self-deceived about are the one most people have. The gifts that can't be faked such as healing, is the one least given if given at all. Headaches, backaches and so forth don't count as such are explainable by a placebo effect in my opinion. Yet, at the same token, since Pentecostal churches are more spiritually alive than other churches, they have a strong appeal to many. Infact having been brought up with AOG in Australia, and then visiting a reformed church which fits more with my own theology, I witnessed the people within all envying Hillsong and wanting to gravitate towards the AOG. My own conclusion is there has to be some true moving of the spirit in Pentecostal experiences, and I can't deny I've witnessed God's presence in worship. Yet, then I think things get pushed too far and too much emphasis does get placed on gifts. It becomes about the "I" rather than others within the church. In prayer and worship you have "God heal me." "God help me." "I want to feel you God." "Please come to me." And on it goes. People within Pentecostal churches seem to be more about what they can get rather than give, and many don't even realise it. Then again, it is also good to feel close to God, but there is no doubting in my mind that many are self-centred instead perhaps of God-centred in their worship and manner with which they approach God.

Now I seem to have gravitated to one side here against Pentecostalism by pointing out many bad points. Really, I'm just telling it like I have seen and witnessed it. It is not my intention to bag Pentecostal churches if it seems that way, as I really do love them in their own way. They meet what I believe is a true spiritual need not found in many reformed churches. Yet, at the same time I think it gets out of hand. Anyway, I will now stop rambling my own thoughts, but they are thoughts I wanted to share.

Kurieuo.

Before you can call something counterfeit you have to admit the real is somewhere, else why copy it?
It simply will not do to put the genuine into the past or future. That's a cop out and one that even Jesus faced in His days on earth.

I admit , what happens in Pentecostal circles generally ( what we see in the modern western democracies anyway) seems to fall far short of the miracles evidenced in the book of Acts - a place incidently we need to go if we want to see a blueprint of what God intended for the Church.

Ask yourself , "Why did the power displayed dissapate slowly after those amazing days and you will get your answer of why our churches (including Pentestal ones) seem so powerless. The truthy is that those who do have the power gifts operating have paid the price by abiding truly in the vine, bearing fruit , which in part at least is anwered prayer. Speaking in tongues degenerated into the Latin mass. The prayer of faith of James chapter 5 degenerated into the last rites. But that's only two examples. When the Church (with a Capital C) returns from it backsliding it will have power with God again. It starts with individuals! I have been privilaged to be a crusade director on a number of occasions - as far away as Russia and Romania and I can assure your readers miracles of power still do happen today.

Dale Tooley wrote:Before you can call something counterfeit you have to admit the real is somewhere, else why copy it?
It simply will not do to put the genuine into the past or future. That's a cop out and one that even Jesus faced in His days on earth.

Just want to state I do agree with you that "the real" is to be found today.

I think it is important however to put things to the test as much as is possible, as 1 John 4 says, to "test the spirits to see whether they are from God." So if I see someone who supposedly possess a spiritual gift, I'm going to be skeptical until the "real" has somehow been evidenced to myself. This is hard with things like tongues, which I have skepticism towards even when I've spoken in it, for there is no plausible way to really know it isn't simply gibberish devised by our minds. Unless of course a person is speaking a language you know they couldn't possibly know, but this isn't the usual variety performed within Pentecostal churches. As for prophecies and interpretation of tongues, such words hold no weight with me unless the words spoken begin to manifest themselves as true. I use to be fussed over whether a prophecy was true or false, but Scripture is enough for me regardless of what the case is. I do understand that prophecies can provide encouragement, but this should be happening anyway through fellowship.

While I am skeptical of anyone proclaiming to have gifts until demonstrated otherwise, I am still very open to people having them as I see no reason why they needed to have ended with the Apostles. Especially considering the kingdom has been among us after Christ's ascension. Whether the Church today is somehow morally different and backslidden compared with early Christianity I'd question, yet I would agree with you that our sins and lifestyle would affect the operation of spiritual gifts. Just makes common sense. Perhaps this is also one way to judge authentic gifts. If someone clearly evidences a lifestyle that bears no mark of spiritual fruits or Christ, and such a person claims to have a gift (especially one such a prophecy or interpretation of tongues), I think skepticism if not a denial of their authenticity as being from God is very much justified.

Kurieuo

Kurieuo, It would seem you have had contact with Pentecostals and Charismatics and with your reformed contacts perhaps you are like me
Amillennial in prophecy? See http://www.hastenthelight.org.nz

Perhaps you need to go with a healing evangelist to a mission field where the minds are not taken over by western cynicism of all things supernatural. Usually they are happy to have Chriatian company if you are prepared to pay your way. I went with Canadian evangelist Len Lindstrom. Here is my report of a trip to Papua New Guinea.
Article for World Harvest Outreach Magazine
Taking a Missionary Trip With Len Lindstrom

Last November I had the great privilege of taking a missionary trip with
evangelist Len Lindstrom to Papua New Guinea. While there I was reminded of the words of the Lord Jesus to His disciples, “How blessed are you to see the things you see and to hear the things you hear for I tell you many righteous men desired to see the things you see and to hear the things you hear and could not.”

The first thing that impressed me about the great crowds that came to hear the Gospel proclaimed and to see the miracle hand of God displayed was the great spiritual hunger of the people. Where in Canada, New Zealand or any­where else in the Western world would you find people travelling great distances and camping out for several days to await the arrival of the man of God? They did in Papua New Guinea. Where in the West would you find whole townships waiting en masse to welcome you and then involve themselves in singing for several hours until the service proper started? They did in Papua New Guinea. Where will you find churches involving themselves in weekly all nights of prayer in preparation for a release of God's healing and saving power? They did in at least one place in Papua New Guinea with the result that the anointing of the Lord was so rich one could feel the impact of sweet spiritual warmth quite some distance from the open field
where the multi­tudes were waiting.
Of course things were not as well prepared everywhere we went but with
prayer and some fasting and the faithful presentation of the full Gospel
there was always a breakthrough and a victory against the power of the
Devil.

The lines of those wishing to testify to God's healing power were usually so
long that it took hours to get through them and we often had to dismiss some so that the service did not extend beyond four or five hours!
If ever one was tempted to doubt the effectiveness of the miracle ministry
in reaching the masses in this age of exploding population growth,
witnessing the sights we saw would cure that. And yet it all seemed so easy, so natural, so scriptural! Psalm 115 verse 2 asks the question,”Why should the nations say, Where, now, is their God?” It's a good question and it deserves an answer. God's people have the answer and it's found in Psalm 111 verse 6. “He has made known to his people the power of His works (miracles), in giving them the heritage of the nations.” That is right now in this age of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. My advice to Harvest Time Messager readers is to get the video Len is offering. Without actually going out, you can yet go and witness these things!

I was also able to video these crusades in the PAL format which is the
video/television system used in Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, Australia,
England and Europe. If you use this system or have friends who would like
one, write to World Harvest Outreach Ministries requesting it.

Dale Tooley

My same experiences with both Dale & Kurieuo.

On one hand, I witness the loop-sided argument in many writings against Charismatism that does not justify what I see in my friends, while on another, I must also admit that I've not personally witness a true blue healings, tho I've heard some testimonies out of the whole sea of it, from close enough friends to not doubt it actually happened (whether if it was truely thru a human agent...no one will ever know).

Thus my dilemma is not knowing if my Charistmatic friends are really receiving the right Spirit (since I do not believe demons can possess Christians). This can be a great concern to some, as it can define the level of engagement between the Charismatic & the non.
To fellowship together or to spend the time evangelising to them. That said...no one can also said for sure if the non are also real Christian.

At the same time, when sensational Charismatism comes in...like gold dust or Holy laughter, do I tolerate the sharing of such testimonies or do I beat my breast & cry out against it.

The scripture says that God is not an author of confusion but of peace. But where can I find peace here?

Dale Tooley wrote:Kurieuo, It would seem you have had contact with Pentecostals and Charismatics and with your reformed contacts perhaps you are like me
Amillennial in prophecy? See http://www.hastenthelight.org.nz

Perhaps you need to go with a healing evangelist to a mission field where the minds are not taken over by western cynicism of all things supernatural. Usually they are happy to have Chriatian company if you are prepared to pay your way. I went with Canadian evangelist Len Lindstrom. Here is my report of a trip to Papua New Guinea.
Article for World Harvest Outreach Magazine
Taking a Missionary Trip With Len Lindstrom

Last November I had the great privilege of taking a missionary trip with
evangelist Len Lindstrom to Papua New Guinea. While there I was reminded of the words of the Lord Jesus to His disciples, “How blessed are you to see the things you see and to hear the things you hear for I tell you many righteous men desired to see the things you see and to hear the things you hear and could not.”

The first thing that impressed me about the great crowds that came to hear the Gospel proclaimed and to see the miracle hand of God displayed was the great spiritual hunger of the people. Where in Canada, New Zealand or any­where else in the Western world would you find people travelling great distances and camping out for several days to await the arrival of the man of God? They did in Papua New Guinea. Where in the West would you find whole townships waiting en masse to welcome you and then involve themselves in singing for several hours until the service proper started? They did in Papua New Guinea. Where will you find churches involving themselves in weekly all nights of prayer in preparation for a release of God's healing and saving power? They did in at least one place in Papua New Guinea with the result that the anointing of the Lord was so rich one could feel the impact of sweet spiritual warmth quite some distance from the open field
where the multi­tudes were waiting.
Of course things were not as well prepared everywhere we went but with
prayer and some fasting and the faithful presentation of the full Gospel
there was always a breakthrough and a victory against the power of the
Devil.

The lines of those wishing to testify to God's healing power were usually so
long that it took hours to get through them and we often had to dismiss some so that the service did not extend beyond four or five hours!
If ever one was tempted to doubt the effectiveness of the miracle ministry
in reaching the masses in this age of exploding population growth,
witnessing the sights we saw would cure that. And yet it all seemed so easy, so natural, so scriptural! Psalm 115 verse 2 asks the question,”Why should the nations say, Where, now, is their God?” It's a good question and it deserves an answer. God's people have the answer and it's found in Psalm 111 verse 6. “He has made known to his people the power of His works (miracles), in giving them the heritage of the nations.” That is right now in this age of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. My advice to Harvest Time Messager readers is to get the video Len is offering. Without actually going out, you can yet go and witness these things!

I was also able to video these crusades in the PAL format which is the
video/television system used in Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, Australia,
England and Europe. If you use this system or have friends who would like
one, write to World Harvest Outreach Ministries requesting it.

Dale Tooley

That is where I recognize your name from!!! Len is such an annointed Man!!!

Bizzt you are right, Len is an anointed man
and here's another miracle pole to pole (almost) .
God arranged for me to meet him in Alberta even before his call to the nations with mass miracle ministry. We have been buddies ever since and worked on a number of projects.

Dale Tooley wrote:Bizzt you are right, Len is an anointed man
and here's another miracle pole to pole (almost) .
God arranged for me to meet him in Alberta even before his call to the nations with mass miracle ministry. We have been buddies ever since and worked on a number of projects.

Do you know a Man named Earl Moon??

Earl Moon? No! Is he a Mooney ????

Obviously not a big star.

Dale Tooley wrote:Kurieuo, It would seem you have had contact with Pentecostals and Charismatics and with your reformed contacts perhaps you are like me Amillennial in prophecy? See http://www.hastenthelight.org.nz

Yeah, I've read some of those pages before and they make a lot of sense. Also read other books such as Four Views: The Meaning Of The Millennium and the Amill seemed to be the most appropriate for me. Gundry's First the Antichrist also drives a few nails into a pre-trib view which seems to take much Scripture literally as it sees fit, rather than having proper exegetical reasons. Yet, I don't want to add another potentially touchy dicussion to this one.

Dale wrote:Perhaps you need to go with a healing evangelist to a mission field where the minds are not taken over by western cynicism of all things supernatural. Usually they are happy to have Chriatian company if you are prepared to pay your way. I went with Canadian evangelist Len Lindstrom. Here is my report of a trip to Papua New Guinea.
...

I hope some day I will get such an opportunity, although I'd hate to end up with someone like Benny Hinn who upon my own research appears to take advantage of people, and doesn't even have a proper understanding of much Christian theology. But I'm assuming Lindstrom is different...? I'd love to go on such a mission, whether I saw the miraculous or not. I seem to have a soft spot for third world people, although I've never been able to do anything beyond sponsorship. I'll be visiting the Philippines soon with my wife, and although not for any kind of mission it should be interesting.

Kurieuo

Kurieuo wrote: I'll be visiting the Philippines soon with my wife, and although not for any kind of mission it should be interesting.

Kurieuo

Should've went during Easter. Most interesting time of the year.

Hey Kurieuo, You should make yourself known to Len. I have shared some of our discussion with him already though as he moves around so much I'm not sure if he has seen it. His website is
http://www.lenlindstrom.com

Neither I or Len would want to be too closely associated with
Benny Hinn but most (not all ) of the aggro against him is hot air
and can be expected by anyone who sees miracles as he does.
Is the servant above his master? Can we dodge persecution while Jesus took it!

Dale Tooley wrote:Hey Kurieuo, You should make yourself known to Len. I have shared some of our discussion with him already though as he moves around so much I'm not sure if he has seen it. His website is
http://www.lenlindstrom.com

Neither I or Len would want to be too closely associated with
Benny Hinn but most (not all ) of the aggro against him is hot air
and can be expected by anyone who sees miracles as he does.
Is the servant above his master? Can we dodge persecution while Jesus took it!

I don't suppose you know whether he has a trip lined up for somewhere in the Philippines during June? I do hope for something along these lines in the future, so who knows... maybe I will end be able to accompany Len some time as you did?

Kurieuo

Mastermind wrote:Should've went during Easter. Most interesting time of the year.

Yeah, trust you to want to go over there for that.