People who never had the opport'y...

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Thu May 05, 2005 7:54 am

The edge wrote: I also had this funny hopeful idea that perhaps these people will not perish but will instead be reincarnated till they are given a chance to hear the message. This of course is nothing biblical.

I believe they will hear that Message in Heaven!!! I think all will have a chance to believe in Jesus whether Hear or on Judgement day if they did not know him before!

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Thu May 05, 2005 8:04 am

bizzt wrote:I believe they will hear that Message in Heaven!!! I think all will have a chance to believe in Jesus whether Hear or on Judgement day if they did not know him before!

Interesting concept - I'm game for exploring the notion further. We know that every knee shall bow - so obviously everyone sees the truth at that time; are you then suggesting that those who didn't already hear of it prior to that would then be written into the book of life at that time? Isn't that sort of a quirky distinction?

Would it possibly be better then to never have heard the Gospel because they can make a decision with absolute certainty? Or does the certainty matter not because in the end we can either accept God or we can't (i.e. it comes down to the heart)? If it might be better to not have heard, why are we commanded into all the world to tell people?

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Thu May 05, 2005 8:23 am

Felgar wrote:
bizzt wrote:I believe they will hear that Message in Heaven!!! I think all will have a chance to believe in Jesus whether Hear or on Judgement day if they did not know him before!
Interesting concept - I'm game for exploring the notion further. We know that every knee shall bow - so obviously everyone sees the truth at that time; are you then suggesting that those who didn't already hear of it prior to that would then be written into the book of life at that time? Isn't that sort of a quirky distinction?

Would it possibly be better then to never have heard the Gospel because they can make a decision with absolute certainty? Or does the certainty matter not because in the end we can either accept God or we can't (i.e. it comes down to the heart)? If it might be better to not have heard, why are we commanded into all the world to tell people?

Think about it you can not enter into Heaven Except through Jesus Christ! If no one knows of Jesus Christ hear on Earth, then in Death they will know. However I don't know if it will be in Heaven or at Judgement but it will be after Death if the opportunity was not given hear on Earth. I believe that Indians that Lived a life of Love and Giving that never heard of Jesus will have the opportunity after to know their God and then I believe they have the ability to still reject him. It is hard to say Felgar I believe it is in the heart but it says in the Bible that there is only one way and that is through Jesus!

Edit... I was re-reading my post if the first few words sounded rude It was definately not intended...

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Thu May 05, 2005 8:50 am

bizzt wrote:Think about it you can not enter into Heaven Except through Jesus Christ! If no one knows of Jesus Christ hear on Earth, then in Death they will know. However I don't know if it will be in Heaven or at Judgement but it will be after Death if the opportunity was not given hear on Earth. I believe that Indians that Lived a life of Love and Giving that never heard of Jesus will have the opportunity after to know their God and then I believe they have the ability to still reject him. It is hard to say Felgar I believe it is in the heart but it says in the Bible that there is only one way and that is through Jesus!

I don't see how the fact that Jesus is the Way, Truth, and Life is really relevant to the questions at hand. Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying.

I think you can enter through Jesus despite never having heard of Him - Abraham must have (for starters). So you would disgree with this then? Your thinking is that it is made known to everyone and the question asked: this is who Jesus is and what He did, do you accept Him as saviour? But my question still stands: Wouldn't more people accept Him in that scenario? And if so, why are we called into the world to tell people about Jesus?

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Thu May 05, 2005 9:24 am

Felgar wrote:
bizzt wrote:Think about it you can not enter into Heaven Except through Jesus Christ! If no one knows of Jesus Christ hear on Earth, then in Death they will know. However I don't know if it will be in Heaven or at Judgement but it will be after Death if the opportunity was not given hear on Earth. I believe that Indians that Lived a life of Love and Giving that never heard of Jesus will have the opportunity after to know their God and then I believe they have the ability to still reject him. It is hard to say Felgar I believe it is in the heart but it says in the Bible that there is only one way and that is through Jesus!
I don't see how the fact that Jesus is the Way, Truth, and Life is really relevant to the questions at hand. Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying.

I think you can enter through Jesus despite never having heard of Him - Abraham must have (for starters). So you would disgree with this then? Your thinking is that it is made known to everyone and the question asked: this is who Jesus is and what He did, do you accept Him as saviour? But my question still stands: Wouldn't more people accept Him in that scenario? And if so, why are we called into the world to tell people about Jesus?

Abraham believed in the Messiah yet he believed in the one to come. I don't think he is the greatest of examples. Let me try to understand what you are trying to say here. If there is someone who does not know Christ and Never heard of him yet lived a Righteous life believing in the God of Nature he does not have to know Jesus?

For your Questions

Wouldn't more people accept Him in that scenario?
No I do not believe so. Does Satan accept Jesus? Have you read the left behind Series? I remember a Woman in the Book that took the Mark and later believed in Jesus. She sealed her Fate in taking the Mark and then regretted it! If people do not know about Jesus and lived their life righteously according to the Moral Code encoded within us (Is there one?) then they would see Jesus I believe they would accept him. However the Choice is still there?

And if so, why are we called into the world to tell people about Jesus?
That is our Mission! Felgar seriously I do not know the end result. (note I am talking Past tense) Either way you look at the equation if an Indian Dies and his life is righteous then does he automatically get Heaven? If an Indian Dies and did not live a Pure and Holy life is he automatically thrown into Hell? The Robber who was on the Cross GOT ONE LAST CHANCE to confess to his Lord! The Indian Never EVER got that chance!

Unfortunately nobody ever knows the mind of God.

AttentionKMartShoppers · Thu May 05, 2005 11:36 am

arretium wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:
arretium wrote:So if you haven't been exposed to the Bible and/or the New Testament, then God's law because some sort of law of common sense?
No, everyone is given an internalized moral code. Your conscious. This can, be altered by yourself or others. If you do something, like murder, you'll start to become desensitized (an example).
Ok. So if one who has never been exposed to Christianity follows their moral code, then they will be allowed in Heaven?

However, since we are all sinners and can not always follow our own moral code due to our imperfection, aren't these people then precluded from Heaven?

I think I was just clarifying something. No, they can't make it to heaven on their own.

ochotseat · Post by **ochotseat** » Sat May 07, 2005 8:00 pm

arretium wrote: One of the central questions I have for Christians in general:

What do you mean by do I even read the bilble? What does this have to do within the context of my point?

?

Your posts were indicative of a pagan, and I was right.

Afraid to answer his question?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun May 08, 2005 11:54 pm

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:
arretium wrote: I think I was just clarifying something. No, they can't make it to heaven on their own.

It sounds like opinions vary widely with no one knowing for sure. Do you know anyone who has a definitive answer? I guess I could ask my old professor from College...he might know (if anyone would).

AttentionKMartShoppers · Mon May 09, 2005 12:45 pm

How sad is this, an online concordance get find me a verse I have read over and over. Well, what this one verse says, is "I am the way, the truth, and the Light, and nobody gets to the Father except through Me." It's not a perfect quotation, and I might have accidentally put two verses together. Jesus said that, of course.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Mon May 09, 2005 1:54 pm

arretium wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:I think I was just clarifying something. No, they can't make it to heaven on their own.
It sounds like opinions vary widely with no one knowing for sure. Do you know anyone who has a definitive answer?

LOL... No need to ask your professor. Everyone who reads the Bible "knows for sure." AKMS posted possibly the most famous verse regarding whether we can make it into heaven of our volition.

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Well, what this one verse says, is "I am the way, the truth, and the Light, and nobody gets to the Father except through Me." It's not a perfect quotation, and I might have accidentally put two verses together. Jesus said that, of course.

It's John 14:6:
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

For reinforcement, here's another:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.

Incidently KM, are you aware of the site http://bible.gospelcom.net/ where you can search for keywords to get a specific verse - it's actually the same place that the [ b i b l e ] delimter references to. I can usually find the verse I'm looking for pretty quickly with a few key words. (Like way, truth, life in the above example.

)

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Mon May 09, 2005 1:56 pm

Felgar wrote:
Incidently KM, are you aware of the site http://bible.gospelcom.net/ where you can search for keywords to get a specific verse - it's actually the same place that the [ b i b l e ] delimter references to. I can usually find the verse I'm looking for pretty quickly with a few key words. (Like way, truth, life in the above example. )

Another is the Blue Letter Bible Site!

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:07 pm

Felgar wrote: LOL... No need to ask your professor. Everyone who reads the Bible "knows for sure." AKMS posted possibly the most famous verse regarding whether we can make it into heaven of our volition.

I guess I'm just not as smart as you Felgar. From my reading of the Bible, it's not clear to me.

The quotation you provided to K-mart seems to indicate that these people won't get into heaven because they would have never even heard about Jesus.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Mon May 09, 2005 3:52 pm

arretium wrote:The quotation you provided to K-mart seems to indicate that these people won't get into heaven because they would have never even heard about Jesus.

No, what those passages say is that Jesus is the means by which God's grace is conferred upon us - it is through Jesus that we are made sinnless and thus able to spend eternity in the direct presence of God. And this goes for everyone from the start of time through to the end.

Check your PM's, and definately check out the link to Lyouki's thread about salvation.

AttentionKMartShoppers · Tue May 10, 2005 8:38 am

The memory works well enough NOT to mix verses at least.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue May 10, 2005 12:38 pm

No, what those passages say is that Jesus is the means by which God's grace is conferred upon us - it is through Jesus that we are made sinnless and thus able to spend eternity in the direct presence of God. And this goes for everyone from the start of time through to the end.

Now we are getting somewhere.

If these people didn't hear of Jesus during their mortal life, then the only way they can hear of him is in their afterlife. So the question turns to: Is there biblical support for the position that Jesus visits these souls after they have expired on earth to give them a chance to live with God in Heaven?

Evidence for God from Science

People who never had the opport'y...

Re: People who never had the opport'y...