Evidence for God from Science

Kerux wrote:Been using the KJV since I was saved because if it was good enough for Paul, I figure it's good enough for me.

I love the KJV as well. It was what I learned when I was saved, what I used to memorize many Scriptures and other translations just don't feel as comforable as times.

I find I use the NASB and NIV more for study now. When I'm not working directly fom a greek text in the NT.

FYI: Has anyone checked out the updated Geneva Bible yet?

http://www.tollelegepress.com/gb/geneva.php

I have mine on order...

puritan lad wrote:FYI: Has anyone checked out the updated Geneva Bible yet?

http://www.tollelegepress.com/gb/geneva.php

I have mine on order...

Thanks for the link.

I can see where that would be an excellent reference text.

Kerux wrote:Been using the KJV since I was saved because if it was good enough for Paul, I figure it's good enough for me.

Just curious. Are you talking about the Apostle Paul? How did he get a King James before 1611?

puritan lad wrote:

Kerux wrote:Been using the KJV since I was saved because if it was good enough for Paul, I figure it's good enough for me.

Just curious. Are you talking about the Apostle Paul? How did he get a King James before 1611?

He's joking.

That's an old joke regarding the KJV.

"If it was good enough for Peter and Paul, then it's good anough for me."

Plays on the irony that some among the KJV only crown actually seem to have that opinion.

Canuckster1127 wrote:

puritan lad wrote:

Kerux wrote:Been using the KJV since I was saved because if it was good enough for Paul, I figure it's good enough for me.

Just curious. Are you talking about the Apostle Paul? How did he get a King James before 1611?

He's joking.

That's an old joke regarding the KJV.

"If it was good enough for Peter and Paul, then it's good anough for me."

Plays on the irony that some among the KJV only crown actually seem to have that opinion.

Good Deal. I guess my taken it seriously makes it even funnier.

Canuckster,

Have you noticed a difference in your reading of English translations since you've become familiar with Greek? (i.e., do you find yourself noticing aspects of verbs and questioning what the Greek is behind the English more ofteh?) I used to be really hard on some of them (especially paraphrastic ones like the Message and the NIV), but now I find them very intriguing . . . almost like a commentary! I find the same to be true for the more word-for word oriented ones, like the NASB/KJV.

Other than idle curiosity, I ask because I'm finding even my limited knowledge of the language (I'm just now taking syntax this semester), I have found my studies to be much more meaningful . . . more alive, maybe? It's like Metzger said: reading the Bible in English is like kissing your wife through a veil! So, other than my own experience, I wonder how others find it.

Jac3510 wrote:Canuckster,

Have you noticed a difference in your reading of English translations since you've become familiar with Greek? (i.e., do you find yourself noticing aspects of verbs and questioning what the Greek is behind the English more ofteh?) I used to be really hard on some of them (especially paraphrastic ones like the Message and the NIV), but now I find them very intriguing . . . almost like a commentary! I find the same to be true for the more word-for word oriented ones, like the NASB/KJV.

Other than idle curiosity, I ask because I'm finding even my limited knowledge of the language (I'm just now taking syntax this semester), I have found my studies to be much more meaningful . . . more alive, maybe? It's like Metzger said: reading the Bible in English is like kissing your wife through a veil! So, other than my own experience, I wonder how others find it.

I have found that on occasion.

I'm not skilled enough to be honest to where I can sit and just read in the greek and pick up on it all. I had a professor who when I was taking classes from him back in the 80's invited me to Church and Sunday School with him in Tulsa. In the Sunday School class, he was asked to read a passage. He did so. When he was done, the teacher said something to the effect of "I don't think I'm familiar with that translation." Then he revealed he had his greek text and had just translated it on the fly.

I wish in many ways that I had attained that level.

Honestly, my greek is rusty. I have to utilize a great number of aids and spend a lot of time when I work in the greek. Now that I'm not in active ministry, I'm not as active in doing the work for my own study as when I was preaching regularly.

What does help me, is when I'm reading a passage, and have a question expecially on verb tenses which are so critical in so many passages, then I can go to my text, identify the key words, and more often then not use the critical tools I have or can access on line and seek for better understanding.

I have 2 years of study in Greek and then foundational studies in hermeneutics on which to draw, but I'm nowhere near where I'd like to be.

Sounds like you and I are in the same arena in our acquaintence with it. I really hope, though, that I can get to the point that you were talking about - where I can just pick it up and read it on the fly. As of now, I spend a good deal of time in lexicons and grammars. But, that's the best way to learn, eh?

So here is a question for you: do you think it would be more helpful or more harmful if Christians had the level of understanding of the text that people like you and I do? On on hand, the benefits are amazing, but on the other hand, there's that whole "little bit of knowledge can be dangerous" thing.

Jac3510 wrote:Sounds like you and I are in the same arena in our acquaintence with it. I really hope, though, that I can get to the point that you were talking about - where I can just pick it up and read it on the fly. As of now, I spend a good deal of time in lexicons and grammars. But, that's the best way to learn, eh?

So here is a question for you: do you think it would be more helpful or more harmful if Christians had the level of understanding of the text that people like you and I do? On on hand, the benefits are amazing, but on the other hand, there's that whole "little bit of knowledge can be dangerous" thing.

I've heard phrases to the effect that too much knowledge is a detriment.

One of the more comical events for me was when I was with my wife's family at a reunion in Northern Florida just after I had been ordained in 1990.

SOmeone came along the street while we were out viewing a parade and began to witness to me. I let him know I was a believer and saved.

That wasn't good enough for him. He wanted to know which Bible I used. I had my suitcase up on the porch and so I pulled out a greek text and handed it to him.

He asked me what it was. When I told him, he launched into a pretty impassioned speech about how it was dangerous to study the Bible in anything but the "inspired King James." It would have been funny, except he was dead serious. When I asked him if he knew any greek, his response was "Enough to know that it is dangerous."

Turned out later, he was my wife's uncle's pastor. I guess I don't have to tell you how much of an impact I made with that uncle.

My belief is that ignorance is never a good argument for the need for faith.

Yes, working in the greek, dealing with textual criticism and modern scholarship is fraught with perils and there are many people who have "lost their faith" by doing it. My question would be what was their faith in, in the first place?

Frankly, my belief is if faith cannot stand up to the test of truth then it is worthless. Having these tools are helpful. They answer many questions. The other side is that they raise as many or more than they answer.

That is fine. Faith still applies and is first and foremost the foundation for salvation. The most profound truth I have ever met in my life is found in the song learned as a Child, "Jesus Loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so." No amount of study, intellectual challenge or debate has changed that for me and it never will. It is a non-negotiable for me.

Knowledge is not the foundation of our Christianity. It is faith and it is a relationship. Knowledge can puff a person up and make them proud which is a danger to watch for at all times.

This type of study is not a prerequisite for faith or discipleship, but it is important especially for anyone who dares to be a pastor or a teacher. The responsibilities are great. Every effort should be made to do our part to grow in the knowledge of the truth.

I reject the premise that any Christian should avoid learning more about the bible, hermeneutics etc. for fear they will lose their faith. If that's the case, then why believe it in the first place?

Sermon over. But you did ask .....

Haha, fair enough. I'm in complete agreement. I just wanted to get your take on it, as I don't meet too many people with a working knowledge of Greek. Most of the people I meet who tell me it is unimportant don't read it, so you can hardly take their word as worth anything!

Good sermon . . . where is the offering plate?!?

Jac3510 wrote:Haha, fair enough. I'm in complete agreement. I just wanted to get your take on it, as I don't meet too many people with a working knowledge of Greek. Most of the people I meet who tell me it is unimportant don't read it, so you can hardly take their word as worth anything!

Good sermon . . . where is the offering plate?!?

Knowing greek is not important for translating. It's been translated by people with far more knowledge of the language than the average Bible student will ever achieve.

It's important for doctinal distinctions that require the highest attention to detail. It's important to understand the grammatical distinction present in the original language that do not always translate cleanly into English. It is important when combined with history and culture to understand the idioms and word pictures created that don't always translate well across language and 1900 or more years.

It's amazing what it reveals in many instances. The difference in style between, say Peter and the author of Hebrews is amazing. Hebrews is likely, one of the most beautifully written pieces of koine greek that you could ever hope to find, bar none. I'd heard that before. It meant a lot to me when I could see that and see why.

Now, when passing the offering plate .... just make sure you don't forget the choir!

Good Deal. I guess my taken it seriously makes it even funnier.

Yep.

Knowledge can puff a person up and make them proud which is a danger to watch for at all times.

Yep.

I just started reading the Holman Christian Standard Bible. I actually picked it up for a good price so I decided to give it a read and see how it stands up. So far it seems good to me. Does anybody know anything about this version? Pros or cons?

Thanks

Anonymous wrote:The best bible translation is your own!! lol

Acually the best book to use for understanding the Bible is titled
"Things to come" by j. dwight Pentecost it explains all versions of translations on all subjects. $25.00