Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:19 pm
I would love to see that Evidence if you have a Link to it. I have researched and found no such Evidence Ever! You can say many people have different opinions! JW's, Mormons, etc... But the Divinity of Christ was never a real Problem!jors23 wrote: just as they say he did so many great things that only a divine person could do there is opposing evidence such as christ's relationship with mary magdalene. which today, i was just told by and episcopalian that she's been taught her whole life that christ was divine but imperfect and used his relationship w/mary to back that up. i always thought that the divinity of christ was one of the founding principles of christianity. but this opposing belief surprised me. so i'm thoroughly confused and don't trust christianity at all.
What did the Church Fathers Think?
God the Son
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin "
Ignatius of Antioch,To the Ephesians,7(A.D. 110),in ANF,1:52
"For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God."
Justin Martyr,Dialogue with Trypho,121(A.D. 155),in ANF,1:263
"God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary ground of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone; but inasmuch as He was all power, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Logos-power, the Logos Himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos, not coming forth in vain, becomes the first-begotten work of the Father. Him (the Logos) we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation, not by abscission; for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Logos, coming forth from the Logos-power of the Father, has not divested of the Logos-power Him who begat Him."
Tatian the Syrian,Oration Against the Greeks,5(c.A.D.175),in ANF,II:67
"We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man."
Tatian the Syrian,Oration Against the Greeks,21(c.A.D.175),in ANF,II:74
"But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind, had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos "
Athenagoras,Plea for Christians,10(A.D. 177),in ANF,II:133
"We have already asserted that God made the world, and all which it contains, by His Word, and Reason, and Power. It is abundantly plain that your philosophers, too, regard the Logos--that is, the Word and Reason--as the Creator of the universe...And we, in like manner, hold that the Word, and Reason, and Power, by which we have said God made all, have spirit as their proper and essential substratum, in which the Word has inbeing to give forth utterances, and reason abides to dispose and arrange, and power is over all to execute. We have been taught that He proceeds forth from God, and in that procession He is generated; so that He is the Son of God, and is called God from unity of substance with God. For God, too, is a Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass; the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun--there is no division of substance, but merely an extension. Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled. The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence--in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united."
Tertullian,Apology,21(A.D. 197),in ANF,III:34-35
"But nothing exists, the cause of whose existence is not supplied by God. Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one--that is, God."
Clement of Alexandria,The Instructor,I:8(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:225
"And thus there appeared another beside Himself. But when I say another, I do not mean that there are two Gods, but that it is only as light of light, or as water from a fountain, or as a ray from the sun. For there is but one power, which is from the All; and the Father is the All, from whom cometh this Power, the Word. And this is the mind which came forth into the world, and was manifested as the Son of God."
Hippolytus,Against the Heresy of One Noetus,11(A.D. 210),in ANF,V:227
"The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God."
Hippolytus,Refutation against All Heresies,10:29(A.D. 220),in ANF,V:151
"Secondly, That Jesus Christ Himself, who came (into the world), was born of the Father before all creatures; that, after He had been the servant of the Father in the creation of all things--'For by Him were all things made'--He in the last times, divesting Himself (of His glory), became a man, and was incarnate although God, and while made a man remained the God which He was; that He assumed a body like to our own, differing in this respect only, that it was born of a virgin and of the Holy Spirit: that this Jesus Christ was truly born, and did truly suffer, and did not endure this death common (to man) in appearance only, but did truly die; that He did truly rise from the dead; and that after His resurrection He conversed with His disciples, and was taken up (into heaven)."
Origen,First Principles,Pref 4(A.D. 230),in ANF,IV:240
"For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man."
Novatian,Concerning the Trinity,11(A.D. 235),in ANF,V:620
"If of Christ; he could not become His temple, since he denies that Christ is God."
Cyprian,To Jubaianus,Epistle 72[73]:12(A.D. 256),in ANF,V:382
"But since He{Jesus] is God in reality and without any shadow of doubt, do you think that we will deny that He is worshipped by us with all the fervour we are capable of, and assumed as the guardian of our body? Is that Christ of yours a god, then? some raving, wrathful, and excited man will say. A god, we will reply."
Arnobius,Against the Heathen,1:42(A.D. 305),in ANF,VI:424
"He became both the Son of God through the Spirit, and the Son of man through the flesh,--that is, both God and man."
Lactantius,Divine Institutes,4:13(A.D. 310),in ANF,VII:112
"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ,the Son of God,begotten from the Father,only-begotten,that is,from the substance of the Father,God from God,light from light,true God from true God,begotten not made,of one substance with the Father..."
Creed of Nicea(A.D. 325),in ECC,215
"Believe also in the Son of God, One and Only, our Lord Jesus Christ, Who was be-gotten God of God, begotten Life of Life, begotten Light of Light, Who is in all things likes to Him that begat, Who received not His being in time, but was before all ages eternally and incomprehensibly begotten of the Father: The Wisdom and the Power of God, and His Righteousness personally subsisting: Who sitteth on the right hand of the Father before all ages."
Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,4:7(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:20-21
"ince the generation of the Son from the Father is not according to the nature of men, and not only like, but also inseparable from the essence of the Father, and He and the Father are one, as He has said Himself, and the Word is ever in the Father and the Father in the Word, as the radiance stands towards the light (for this the phrase itself indicates), therefore the Council, as understanding this, suitably wrote 'one in essence,' that they might both defeat the perverseness of the heretics, and shew that the Word was other than originated things."
Athanasius,Defence of the Nicene Council,20(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,IV:164
"On this account and reasonably, having said before, 'I and the Father are One,' He added, 'I in the Father and the Father in Me,' by way of shewing the identity of Godhead and the unity of Essence. For they are one, not as one thing divided into two parts, and these nothing but one, nor as one thing twice named, so that the Same becomes at one time Father, at another His own Son, for this Sabellius holding was judged an heretic. But They are two, because the Father is Father and is not also Son, and the Son is Son and not also Father; but the nature is one; (for the offspring is not unlike its parent, for it is his image), and all that is the Father's, is the Son's. Wherefore neither is the Son another God, for He was not procured from without, else were there many, if a godhead be procured foreign from the Father's; for if the Son be other, as an Offspring, still He is the Same as God; and He and the Father are one in propriety and peculiarity of nature, and in the identity of the one Godhead, as has been said. For the radiance also is light, not second to the sun, nor a different light, nor from participation of it, but a whole and proper offspring of it. And such an offspring is necessarily one light; and no one would say that they are two lights, but sun and radiance two, yet one the light from the sun enlightening in its radiance all things. So also the Godhead of the Son is the Father's; whence also it is indivisible; and thus there is one God and none other but He. And so, since they are one, and the Godhead itself one, the same things are said of the Son, which are said of the Father, except His being said to be Father:--for instance, that He is God, 'And the Word was God;' Almighty, 'Thus saith He which was and is and is to come, the Almighty;' Lord, 'One Lord Jesus Christ;' that He is Light, 'I am the Light;' that He wipes out sins, 'that ye may know,' He says, 'that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins;' and so with other attributes. For 'all things,' says the Son Himself, 'whatsoever the Father hath, are Mine;' and again, 'And Mine are Thine.' "
Athanasius,Orations,III:4(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:395
"But, since in Christ there is the fulness of the Godhead, we have herein a revelation of God the Father joining to raise us in Him Who died; and we must confess that Christ Jesus is none other than God in all the fulness of the Deity."
Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity,1:13(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:44
"Thus you cannot add together God the Father and God the Son, and count Them as two Gods, for They Two are One God. You cannot confuse Them together, for They Two are not One Person. And so the Apostolic faith rejects two gods; for it knows nothing of two Fathers or two Sons."
Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity,7:31(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:131-132
"Worshipping as we do God of God, we both confess the distinction of the Persons, and at the same time abide by the Monarchy. We do not fritter away the theology in a divided plurality, because one Form, so to say, united in the invariableness of the Godhead, is beheld in God the Father, and in God the Only begotten. For the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son; since such as is the latter, such is the former, and such as is the former, such is the latter; and herein is the Unity. So that according to the distinction of Persons, both are one and one, and according to the community of Nature, one. How, then, if one and one, are there not two Gods? Because we speak of a king, and of the king's image, and not of two kings. The majesty is not cloven in two, nor the glory divided. The sovereignty and authority over us is one, and so the doxology ascribed by us is not plural but one; because the honour paid to the image passes on to the prototype. Now what in the one case the image is by reason of imitation, that in the other case the Son is by nature; and as in works of art the likeness is dependent on the form, so in the case or the divine and uncompounded nature the union consists in the communion of the Godhead. One, moreover, is the Holy Spirit, and we speak of Him singly, conjoined as He is to the one Father through the one Son, and through Himself completing the adorable and blessed Trinity. Of Him the intimate relationship to the Father and the Son is sufficiently declared by the fact of His not being ranked in the plurality of the creation, but being spoken of singly; for he is not one of many, but One. For as there is one Father and one Son, so is there one Holy Ghost. He is consequently as far removed from created Nature as reason requires the singular to be removed from compound and plural bodies; and He is in such wise united to the Father and to the Son as unit has affinity with unit."
Basil,On the Spirit,45(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VIII:28
"In my opinion He is called Son because He is identical with the Father in Essence; and not only for this reason, but also because He is Of Him. And He is called Only-Begotten, not because He is the only Son and of the Father alone, and only a Son; but also because the manner of His Sonship is peculiar to Himself and not shared by bodies."
Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration,30:20(ante A.D. 389),in NPNF2,VII:316
"And Christ also, after having said that I receive not testimony from man' (c. v. 34), in order that He may not seem to the foolish to clash with Himself, by declaring at one time There is another that beareth witness of Me and I know that his witness is true' (c. v. 32) (for He pointed to John;) and at another, I receive not testimony from man' (c. v. 34); He immediately adds the solution of the doubt, But these things I say' for your own sake, that ye might be saved.' As though He had said, that I am God, and the really-Begotten Son of God, and am of that Simple and Blessed Essence, I need none to witness to Me; and even though none would do so, yet am not I by this anything diminished in My Essence; but because I care for the salvation of the many, I have descended to such humility as to commit the witness of Me to a man.' "
Chrysostom John,Homily on John,VI:7(c.A.D. 391),in NPNF1,XIV:26
" Further, that none may fall into error, let a man attend to those signs vouchsafed us by holy Scripture, whereby we may know the Son. He is called the Word, the Son, the Power of God, the Wisdom of God.The Word, because He is without blemish; the Power, because He is perfect; the Son, because He is begotten of the Father; the Wisdom, because He is one with the Father, one in eternity, one in Divinity. Not that the Father is one Person with the Son; between Father and Son is the plain distinction that comes of generation; so that Christ is God of God, Everlasting of Everlasting, Fulness of Fulness. Now these are not mere names, but signs of power manifesting itself in works for while there is fulness of Godhead in the Father, there is also fulness of Godhead in the Son, not diverse, but one. The Godhead is nothing confused, for it is an unity: nothing manifold, for in it there is no difference."
Ambrose,On the Christian Faith,1:2,16-17(A.D. 380),in NPNF2,X:203-204
"We believe...in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten from the Father before all ages, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father..."
Creed of Constantinople(A.D. 381),in ECC, 297
"If anyone does not say that the Son of God is true God just as [His] Father is true God [and] He is all-powerful and omniscient and equal to the Father, he is a heretic."
Council of Rome,Tome of Pope Damasus,Canon 12(A.D. 382),in DEN,31
"At what point, then, does Eunomius assent to the truth? When he says that the Lord Himself, being the Son of the living God, not being ashamed of His birth from the Virgin, often named Himself, in His own sayings, 'the Son of Man'? For this phrase we also allege for proof of the community of essence, because the name of Son' shows the community of nature to be equal in both cases. For as He is called the Son of Man by reason of the kindred of His flesh to her of whom He was born, so also He is conceived, surely, as the Son of God, by reason of the connection of His essence with that from which He has His existence, and this argument is the greatest weapon of the truth. For nothing so clearly points to Him Who is the mediator between God and man' (as the great Apostle called Him), as the name of Son,' equally applicable to either nature, Divine or Human. For the same Person is Son of God, and was made, in the Incarnation, Son of Man, that, by His communion with each, He might link together by Himself what were divided by nature. Now if, in becoming Son of Man, he were without participation in human nature, it would be logical to say that neither. does He share in the Divine essence, though He is Son of God. But if the whole compound nature of man was in Him (for He was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin), it is surely necessary to believe that every property of the transcendent essence is also in Him, as the Word Son' claims for Him both alike--the Human in the man, but in the God the Divine."
Gregory of Nyssa,Against Eunomius,3:4(A.D. 384),in NPNF2,V:145
"But if the Son is said to be sent by the Father on this account, that the one is the Father, and the other the Son, this does not in any manner hinder us from believing the Son to be equal, and consubstantial, and co-eternal with the Father, and yet to have been sent as Son by the Father. Not because the one is greater, the other less; but because the one is Father, the other Son; the one begetter, the other begotten; the one, He from whom He is who is sent; the other, He who is from Him who sends."
Augustine,On the Trinity,4:20(A.D. 416),in NPNF1,III:83
"The Word of God, then, the only-begotten Son of the Father, in all things like and equal to the Father, God of God, Light of Light, Wisdom of Wisdom, Essence of Essence, is altogether that which the Father is, yet is not the Father, because the one is Son, the other is Father. And hence He knows all that the Father knows; but to Him to know, as to be, is from the Father, for to know and to be is there one. And therefore, as to be is not to the Father from the Son, so neither is to know. Accordingly, as though uttering Himself, the Father begat the Word equal to Himself in all things; for He would not have uttered Himself wholly and perfectly, if there were in His Word anything more or less than in Himself."
Augustine,On the Trinity,15:14(A.D. 416),in NPNF1,III:213
for some reason, whenever anything comes out of your mouth, it reminds me of my first day of kindergarten! how old are you?