Evidence for God from Science

I dunno about that. Not all non-genetic behaviors are voluntary. I mean, something in a gay person's young life might have "twisted" him, making him gay without a choice. I mean, I could point out people with pathological phobias as examples.

Now, this doesn't mean I approve of homosexuality. I just think that homosexuality isn't as easily booted as some people think.

I enjoy the idea that man is basing morality on animals...also, I can't remember my sources as usual, but I think it was Naarth that had an article that said that animals can misinterpret stimilu or something like that. Which is the reason cats sometimes at their kittens-they run around, make high pitched noises, and are small...sounds like food, and it overpowers the parenting instinct, and they eat em'...

Forge wrote:I dunno about that. Not all non-genetic behaviors are voluntary. I mean, something in a gay person's young life might have "twisted" him, making him gay without a choice. I mean, I could point out people with pathological phobias as examples.

Now, this doesn't mean I approve of homosexuality. I just think that homosexuality isn't as easily booted as some people think.

People with phobias can seek treatment as can homosexuals.

I was just showing how phobias are no chosen behaviors.

Forge wrote:I was just showing how phobias are no chosen behaviors.

Can't homosexuals suppress their desires?

Lust, sure. Thinking, "whoa, hot dude," no.

Forge wrote:Lust, sure. Thinking, "whoa, hot dude," no.

And is it any different for heterosexuality?

Lust is a sin, but seeing a woman and thinking she is beautiful isn't. A homosexual can supress all sinful activity, but how can they supress how their body responds to stimuli?

Dan wrote:Lust is a sin, but seeing a woman and thinking she is beautiful isn't. A homosexual can supress all sinful activity, but how can they supress how their body responds to stimuli?

Discipline. Check out a book called "Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life" by Donald S. Whitney. Like anything worth having in your life, they take time and effort to develop. Most homosexuals(and heterosexual lusters) won't come to Christ and immediately experience Christ's total transforming power. They'll always experience some part of it right away, but God usually requires us to do our part in order to experience it totally. I'm one of the lucky ones. My transformation in the area of homosexuality was almost total, and really fast. My personal worst struggles are over other things like gluttony and laziness.

My best guess is that God requires you to work on your discipline and stuff in order to test just how much you really want it. "How much do you <I>really</I> want to be free from that sin? How much do you <I>really</I> want to follow me?" Stuff like that.

Forge wrote:I dunno about that. Not all non-genetic behaviors are voluntary. I mean, something in a gay person's young life might have "twisted" him, making him gay without a choice. I mean, I could point out people with pathological phobias as examples.

Now, this doesn't mean I approve of homosexuality. I just think that homosexuality isn't as easily booted as some people think.

I agree with you here. It does actually look like factors in early life (like peer rejection and poor father/son relationships) cause SSA. We should be careful about the word "gay", though, since it can mean different things to different people.

Although "behaviors" is probably the wrong word. Behaviors are voluntary. SSA and phobias are not behavior but rather mental conditions.

And ex-gays do say that changing attractions is a long and difficult process, but that it is usually possible. Nonetheless, as the others on this thread have mentioned, the attractions are not the sin.

jerickson314 wrote:Although "behaviors" is probably the wrong word. Behaviors are voluntary. SSA and phobias are not behavior but rather mental conditions.

Thanks for the clarification.

Even if homosexuality has a genetic correlation it does not make it "natural". It is only natural in the sense that it is a part of that individuals makeup. However from a sociological paradigm, unfortunately it is a disease. It prevents a healthy relationship between male and female. This lessens the likelyhood of producing offspring.

However I beleive we should treat them no worse than we would an alcoholic. They are human beings after all.

Agreed....mostly

ochotseat wrote:

Forge wrote:I dunno about that. Not all non-genetic behaviors are voluntary. I mean, something in a gay person's young life might have "twisted" him, making him gay without a choice. I mean, I could point out people with pathological phobias as examples.

Now, this doesn't mean I approve of homosexuality. I just think that homosexuality isn't as easily booted as some people think.

People with phobias can seek treatment as can homosexuals.

Homosexuals can seek treatment to come to terms with their sexuality but they cant seek treatment to change something that was unchosen and unchangeable. That is the current position of MAINSTREAM medical associations (as opposed to homophobic little "Christian" hate groups such as the nonsense that is NARTH a junk science organisation of misfits and extremists). Homophobes can seak treatment though just like anyone else with a phobia so why don't you.

ouafsa wrote:

ochotseat wrote:

Forge wrote:I dunno about that. Not all non-genetic behaviors are voluntary. I mean, something in a gay person's young life might have "twisted" him, making him gay without a choice. I mean, I could point out people with pathological phobias as examples.

Now, this doesn't mean I approve of homosexuality. I just think that homosexuality isn't as easily booted as some people think.

People with phobias can seek treatment as can homosexuals.

Homosexuals can seek treatment to come to terms with their sexuality but they cant seek treatment to change something that was unchosen and unchangeable. That is the current position of MAINSTREAM medical associations (as opposed to homophobic little "Christian" hate groups such as the nonsense that is NARTH a junk science organisation of misfits and extremists). Homophobes can seak treatment though just like anyone else with a phobia so why don't you.

This might be an area where you are passionate but please keep the tone in which you type kept to more of a respectable Manner.

Read http://discussions.godandscience.org/viewtopic.php?t=4

Thank You

ouafsa wrote:Homosexuals can seek treatment to come to terms with their sexuality but they cant seek treatment to change something that was unchosen and unchangeable. That is the current position of MAINSTREAM medical associations (as opposed to homophobic little "Christian" hate groups such as the nonsense that is NARTH a junk science organisation of misfits and extremists). Homophobes can seak treatment though just like anyone else with a phobia so why don't you.

The thing is that there is no medical evidence to support that position. The APA only changed its stance on homosexuality being a mental disorder at the insistence of lobby groups such as the ACLU. It was irresponsible of them, it was wrong, and it sounded the death knell for many a homosexual who could have found treatment.

There is, however, evidence that homosexuals can change. True, there are many who do not, but most of them do not want to change, and many of those who do don't have the backing of Jesus Christ Himself to help them along. Very big difference. When you try to change something so big in your life, it's almost impossible to make any meaningful progress on your own.

Also, look at the groups studying homosexuality. You mentioned NARTH, a secular organization dedicated to the study of homosexuality and its causes. They're current position is that homosexuals can change with treatment, and like any other organization, they have both failures and successes to their credit.

Another good organization is Exodus. Like other organizations, Exodus is 100% voluntary. They won't try to help you change unless you request the help yourself. Reading their testomonials is amazing. They're a great example of how one can love, nurture, and accept a person without affirming harmful behaviors in that person's life.

You seem to have a knee-jerk reaction that such organizations(and the people who support them) are hateful and/or homophobic. If you were to ever correspond with the people you insist on slandering, you'd find many people with nothing close to hatred in their hearts. Rather, you'd find love, acceptance, and concern for your well-being. Especially from Exodus.

And everyone knows that homophobia is a misnomer. I have no fear concerning homosexuals, and many people opposed to homosexuality feel likewise. It's not a fear of homosexuals, but rather concern for homosexuals and society at large that motivates us to stand firm against homosexuality.

I'd hate to think where I'd be if I had remained a homosexual. Yeah, you probably weren't expecting that. From age 6, my first "squishy feelings" were for other boys, and it only intensified once I hit puberty around age 11. Finally, when I was 23 something happened that threw me at the foot of the cross, and my homosexuality was one of many things that I was convicted of. One of many things that changed during the following year.

If I can change, anybody can.