Evidence for God from Science

Murray wrote:

RickD wrote:

Murray wrote:I tend to believe the flood to be more symbolic than literal

In your mind, is Jesus' return symbolic as well?

no

What part of the story of Noah do you find difficult to believe literally?

It's quite simple Evolution is the answer. God did not ask Noah to bring all living, race and bred of this time. He asked Noah to bring every two of THEIR kind male and female. For example how many breds of Dog do we have now? How many do you think we had then? The amount of living things on the earth now and when God created man and all the cretures are far more now. Noah brought the begining of those breds to the Ark. Not every bred because many did not exist at that time.

I think if God was being symbolic in any given way, he would tell us. God wants use to read the bible, understand it and live by it. In Matthew he clearly states that what he is talking about is in parables several different ways because not all will understand, but those that have ears to hear; let him. It is all written in Matthew Chapter 13, but even in chapter 20 he states again another parable and in Mark chapter 12 and so on and so forth. He gives you the 'heads up' so to speak to say okay it's time to think outside the box now.

About Noah being a symbolic meaning to the return of God...I can understand that a little because of the way he mentions it, but I think it is more of a reminder of the flood and how it is the same as what is going on today. Where I get that is in Genesis chapter 6:5-8 Where he says that he saw wickedness in man and his heart was evil continually. As it will be when God returns and see's all his children worshipping the wrong Messiah.

Revelations2reveal wrote:I think if God was being symbolic in any given way, he would tell us. God wants use to read the bible, understand it and live by it. In Matthew he clearly states that what he is talking about is in parables several different ways because not all will understand, but those that have ears to hear; let him. It is all written in Matthew Chapter 13, but even in chapter 20 he states again another parable and in Mark chapter 12 and so on and so forth. He gives you the 'heads up' so to speak to say okay it's time to think outside the box now.

About Noah being a symbolic meaning to the return of God...I can understand that a little because of the way he mentions it, but I think it is more of a reminder of the flood and how it is the same as what is going on today. Where I get that is in Genesis chapter 6:5-8 Where he says that he saw wickedness in man and his heart was evil continually. As it will be when God returns and see's all his children worshipping the wrong Messiah.

Im pretty sure revelation is most not if all symblocic and I do not see one sentence where is declares that.

Murray wrote:

Revelations2reveal wrote:I think if God was being symbolic in any given way, he would tell us. God wants use to read the bible, understand it and live by it. In Matthew he clearly states that what he is talking about is in parables several different ways because not all will understand, but those that have ears to hear; let him. It is all written in Matthew Chapter 13, but even in chapter 20 he states again another parable and in Mark chapter 12 and so on and so forth. He gives you the 'heads up' so to speak to say okay it's time to think outside the box now.

About Noah being a symbolic meaning to the return of God...I can understand that a little because of the way he mentions it, but I think it is more of a reminder of the flood and how it is the same as what is going on today. Where I get that is in Genesis chapter 6:5-8 Where he says that he saw wickedness in man and his heart was evil continually. As it will be when God returns and see's all his children worshipping the wrong Messiah.

Im pretty sure revelation is most not if all symblocic and I do not see one sentence where is declares that.

Oh really? Which revelation exactly? Revelation - no. Perhaps you mean Pauls' visions or Pharaohs' dreams,etc ? Well, those were clearly interpreted and defined as parables or something similar. Much of the Bible is filled with things that seem unreal, but that doesn't mean they aren't true.

SnowDrops wrote:

Murray wrote:

Revelations2reveal wrote:I think if God was being symbolic in any given way, he would tell us. God wants use to read the bible, understand it and live by it. In Matthew he clearly states that what he is talking about is in parables several different ways because not all will understand, but those that have ears to hear; let him. It is all written in Matthew Chapter 13, but even in chapter 20 he states again another parable and in Mark chapter 12 and so on and so forth. He gives you the 'heads up' so to speak to say okay it's time to think outside the box now.

About Noah being a symbolic meaning to the return of God...I can understand that a little because of the way he mentions it, but I think it is more of a reminder of the flood and how it is the same as what is going on today. Where I get that is in Genesis chapter 6:5-8 Where he says that he saw wickedness in man and his heart was evil continually. As it will be when God returns and see's all his children worshipping the wrong Messiah.

Im pretty sure revelation is most not if all symblocic and I do not see one sentence where is declares that.

Oh really? Which revelation exactly? Revelation - no. Perhaps you mean Pauls' visions or Pharaohs' dreams,etc ? Well, those were clearly interpreted and defined as parables or something similar. Much of the Bible is filled with things that seem unreal, but that doesn't mean they aren't true.

So you believe revalation is literal then?

Ok thats fine, but i have soem concerns.

Mulyiple stars the size of the sun could in no way crash onto the earth as we are 10000000 times smaller than the sun and the idea of multiple drifiting suns comming into our solar system is highly improbable. Antoher thing is , is that I do not see the ancient kingdom of babaylon being re-established again, so theres a big issue. Not so sure that we are going to see a women wth a dragon either, and Not so sure if god is literally going to knock some bowls off the conter and have death come out of them. The part with the sea monster might be a bit non-literal as well. Your still welcome to believe revalation is all literal, I however take the stance that it is symbolic.

Murray & Snowdrops

You guys are mixing two different things. First Revelation is true, second, it is prophecy. Prophecy by means of symbols, not parables. Parables are stories mentioned to explain a point in a general sense. Revelation is of course symbolic but not the parable type of symbolic. It is going to happen, anyway you choose to interpret it.

The flood of Noah did happen, there is no reason to think it is symbolic. Why would it be symbolic and if so then Paul would not have mentioned him in Hebrews 11 as a Hero of faith, neither would peter quote him on the flood, which he somehow equals to Noah's baptism.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. (Heb. 11:7)

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed with the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds) - then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment (2Peter 2:4-9)


. . . in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also antitype which now saves us, namely baptism... (lPeter 3:20,21).

It's quite simple Evolution is the answer. God did not ask Noah to bring all living, race and bred of this time. He asked Noah to bring every two of THEIR kind male and female. For example how many breds of Dog do we have now? How many do you think we had then? The amount of living things on the earth now and when God created man and all the cretures are far more now. Noah brought the begining of those breds to the Ark. Not every bred because many did not exist at that time.

@Revelations2reveal

How do you think it is possible that animals evolved after Noah's flood. Evolution is too slow to explain what you are saying. Also when you say we have more species than before than you probably need to see how many of species have gone extinct and you will realize that we do not have the slightest close number of species as to before. Earth had a diversity of creatures that got extinct with time. See if you can study some good articles on extinction and you will find out that almost 99 percent of all species that ever existed - have gone extinct. This means for every 1 species today there were a thousand before.The tree of life project a number of 5 to 100 million species on this planet, of which we have only discovered around 2 million. If so then in the past there existed at least 2 billion of which almost all are extinct. So when we say that our planet is biologically diverse, it is compared to nothing that had existed before.

Also evolution after Noah's flood would complicate a lot of things. You need to understand how evolution by mutations and natural selection works. The best and most probable way for a mutation to trigger was to have the uv radiation of the sun. something that has slowly came down. The earth temperatures is not what it was in the Jurassic, Triassic and even before that. UV light which the ozone blocks now, stops a lot of mutations. Which means that the chances of evolution before Noah ever was born - were higher than the time of the flood. The early earth saw mutations because it was not shielded by the ozone as it is today, earth was hotter than today and that resulted in the bio diversity that we see today.

neo-x wrote:Murray & Snowdrops

You guys are mixing two different things. First Revelation is true, second, it is prophecy. Prophecy by means of symbols, not parables. Parables are stories mentioned to explain a point in a general sense. Revelation is of course symbolic but not the parable type of symbolic. It is going to happen, anyway you choose to interpret it.

The flood of Noah did happen, there is no reason to think it is symbolic. Why would it be symbolic and if so then Paul would not have mentioned him in Hebrews 11 as a Hero of faith, neither would peter quote him on the flood, which he somehow equals to Noah's baptism.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. (Heb. 11:7)

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed with the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds) - then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment (2Peter 2:4-9)


. . . in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also antitype which now saves us, namely baptism... (lPeter 3:20,21).

I think what is interesting about Revelation is, it's not "what happened", it's what the writer described happening. So, say what he thought was a star could be an asteroid, but he didn't know any word for that.

A star falling from heaven would be a natural symbol of one who had left a higher platform, cosmology is not the subject in Revelation, which you can imagine it like that but was hardly the meaning he would convey through such a a figure of speech. Consider where the star fell

Rev 8:10
The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.

Look, its a multiple hit, one third of rivers, and springs, meaning that we are not talking about literal water, because an asteroid of such magnitude would have to be the size of the continent of Asia to strike all the one third of the water resources at the same time and the book of revelation would end right after as almost every living thing would be wiped out by the resulting explosion, radiation, heat, shock and ash.

A star is a sign of a prince, of a ruler, of one distinguished by rank or by talent. Remember the star that guided the Magi's. Also condiser Joeseph's dream in Gen 37.

He dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, "Behold, I have dreamed yet another dream: and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars bowed down to me."
10 He told it to his father and to his brothers. His father rebuked him, and said to him, "What is this dream that you have dreamed? Will I and your mother and your brothers indeed come to bow ourselves down to you to the earth?"

Now see

Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Rev 22:16 (NIV)

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Nu 24:17 (NIV)
"I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a sceptre will rise out of Israel..."

It would be consistent in context if you see the star not as a cosmological body but a symbol of a fallen somebody (in this case) but a personality, nonetheless.

neo-x wrote:A star falling from heaven would be a natural symbol of one who had left a higher platform, cosmology is not the subject in Revelation, which you can imagine it like that but was hardly the meaning he would convey through such a a figure of speech. Consider where the star fell

Rev 8:10
The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.

Look, its a multiple hit, one third of rivers, and springs, meaning that we are not talking about literal water, because an asteroid of such magnitude would have to be the size of the continent of Asia to strike all the one third of the water resources at the same time and the book of revelation would end right after as almost every living thing would be wiped out by the resulting explosion, radiation, heat, shock and ash.

A star is a sign of a prince, of a ruler, of one distinguished by rank or by talent. Remember the star that guided the Magi's. Also condiser Joeseph's dream in Gen 37.

He dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, "Behold, I have dreamed yet another dream: and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars bowed down to me."
10 He told it to his father and to his brothers. His father rebuked him, and said to him, "What is this dream that you have dreamed? Will I and your mother and your brothers indeed come to bow ourselves down to you to the earth?"

Now see

Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Rev 22:16 (NIV)

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Nu 24:17 (NIV)
"I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a sceptre will rise out of Israel..."

It would be consistent in context if you see the star not as a cosmological body but a symbol of a fallen somebody (in this case) but a personality, nonetheless.

Good point. Only one thing - wasn't the "star" called Wormwood? So the "star" isn't the Morning Star; that is, Jesus. Who would it be?

Good point. Only one thing - wasn't the "star" called Wormwood? So the "star" isn't the Morning Star; that is, Jesus. Who would it be?

I see, it could be a lot of personalities, of course excluding Jesus, he is not the star here. A lot of people think it is a real star, it could be, but I like to think it is more of a symbolism of something evil that would create bitterness. Just my POV.

neo-x wrote:

Good point. Only one thing - wasn't the "star" called Wormwood? So the "star" isn't the Morning Star; that is, Jesus. Who would it be?

I see, it could be a lot of personalities, of course excluding Jesus, he is not the star here. A lot of people think it is a real star, it could be, but I like to think it is more of a symbolism of something evil that would create bitterness. Just my POV.

Like one of the fallen angels perhaps?

may be, yes, I would think so.

Some people actually believe one of the falling stars was Chernobyl or japans nuclear disaster. I have also heard that they may represent nuclear weapons. Guess we won’t know for sure until they fall