Evidence for God from Science

j316 wrote:Thank you Prewrath rap. No where in Revelation does it ever mention Rome, in fact Rome is only mentioned by name in Acts and Paul's epistles. Therefore the possibility is open that the city mentioned is not Rome, and if, as many believe, the prophecy is in the future then it could easily be Jerusalem, not just Rome. I don't know that it is one or the other, since I lean to preterism I would conclude that it could easily have been Jerusalem because it was destroyed, twice.

It couldn't 'just as easily be Jerusalem', because it uses a phrase which was commonly used in the 1st century to refer to Rome.

When Fortigorn says what he said in the authoritative manner he said it, it leads me to believe he is claiming knowledge that I don't think he possesses.

I'm sorry you chose to read what I wrote in that way.

Most of prophecy was concerned with the Jews and Jerusalem, everything else was secondary to that.

Proof please.

I did not post that link just so you could jump in and correct me, I posted it because I thouht it was interesting that Jerusalem also sits on seven hills. I made no theological statements that needed correcting and until you show me your DD degree don't bother to correct me again.

You made a historical error which I chose to correct. I don't need a theology degree for that.

The reference to the seven hills does fit in regards to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem was a large city spreading beyond the walls of the fort and onto the seven hills there during the time of Jesus and the Apostles. It's seven hills are; 1.) Mount Gared; 2.) Mount Goath; 3.) Mount Acra; 4.) Mount Bezetha; 5.) Mount Moriah; 6.) Mount Ophel; 7.) Mount Zion. Sometimes, some will substitute the first four with the Mount of Olives, Mount of Offence, Mount of Evil Counsel (Sophus), and Mount Calvaryor (Golgotha).


http://askelm.com/prophecy/p000201.htm

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=54

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=54

http://members.aol.com/johnprh/whore2.html#seven


What clenches Jerusalem over Rome for me is the following verse - Rev 18:24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

Now why does this clench it for me. It is not a simple answer but as quick as I can it rests on several major facts. In Rev chapter 14 there is the following statement by an angel "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." Key question what is the wine of the wrath of her fornication?

The answer I believe is the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. From Rev 17:4 we find the whore holding a golden cup in her hand and full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication. Then in Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:

so the cup holds the wine and she is drunken from the contents of the golden cup which is the blood of martyrs. So the wine is the blood of the martyrs.

Now comes my use of Jesus order of reaping from Matthew 13. The order of harvest is first the tares then the wheat. If you apply this rule to the two harvest of Rev 14 - you will find that the blood of the winepress is the blood of the saints which is poured out onto Jerusalem becuase that is where the Lord returns not ROME! so for Rev 18 to be fulfilled literally the blood is poured upon Jerusalem which I believe fits much better than Rome. From the first mention of great city in chapter 11 which even points out Jerusalem without even thinking the "Great City" is Jerusalem
see Rev 11:8 -

And what is really astounding is that the seven mountains represent seven kings. Lets look at the riddle are you ready

The riddle is as follows And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. and the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eight, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


The first five are babylon, Medes-Persians, Assyria, Greece, and Egypt
one is - Rome (6th)
not yet come - ? 7th but also the eighth.

What is really interesting is that jerusalem literally fulfills the seven kings and a eighth with the physical mountains because when Jesus returns mount of olive splits in two so six plus two is eight

Hmmmm there is than number Eight again.

Jerusalem better fits the great city of Rev and in my mind is the correct answer over rome.

Shalom
Mark

prewrath rap wrote:The reference to the seven hills does fit in regards to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem was a large city spreading beyond the walls of the fort and onto the seven hills there during the time of Jesus and the Apostles. It's seven hills are; 1.) Mount Gared; 2.) Mount Goath; 3.) Mount Acra; 4.) Mount Bezetha; 5.) Mount Moriah; 6.) Mount Ophel; 7.) Mount Zion.

Could you show me the historical evidence that these were the cities on which Jerusalem was built in the 1st century?

Sometimes, some will substitute the first four with the Mount of Olives, Mount of Offence, Mount of Evil Counsel (Sophus), and Mount Calvaryor (Golgotha).

This simply proves that people can't even agree on what the alleged 'seven hills of Jerusalem' are supposed to be.

The Seven Hills of Jerusalem

By Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 2000


It was common custom in the centuries before Christ for people in the Roman world to refer to the City of Rome itself as the "City of Seven Hills." The references are numerous and consistent. And indeed, when Romulus and Remus wanted to build a city in the area of the Tibur River (just inland from the coast to afford a greater protection for the city from sea pirates or from the naval warfare of hostile powers), it was divinely selected, in Roman parlance, that the city had to be on "seven hills." The number "seven" was a universal symbol that signified "completion" or "perfection," and the ancients who founded Rome wanted people to know that this particular city was destined to have a world influence and fame, and that it was no ordinary city that was being constructed in the eighth century B.C. The very fact, that Rome was designated "The Seven Hilled City" was significant enough to render it as a sacred and holy city that was designed to have world power and authority. This is one of the reasons the ancient people of the world always respected the City of Rome, whether they were its arch defenders and supporters or its enemies and were alien to its political and religious concepts. Even when the city in the time of the Empire finally grew beyond the strict limits of the "Seven Hills" (and reached out to embrace other hills in the vicinity and even hills on the other side of the Tibur River, such as Vatican Hill), the people for nostalgic reasons still retained the name of the city by its original designation: "the City of Seven Hills."

But strange as it may seem, the City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills." This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an eighth century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills" (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was. Those "seven hills" are easy to identify. If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives. The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One], the middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two], the highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13). On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name), then the "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five] and then to the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six]. And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion." This makes "Seven Hills" in all.

This does not end the significance of "Seven Hills" for the urban areas that the ancients looked on as being the centers of divine sovereignty on this earth. We are all familiar with Babylon on the Euphrates (which became the capital of the world in the time of Nebuchadnezzar in the sixth century B.C.) as being the "Seven Hilled City." And, it may be surprising for some to learn this, but when Constantine the emperor wanted to build a "new Rome" in the eastern part of the Roman Empire (because most of the economic life of the Roman Empire in the fourth century was centered in the eastern half of the Empire and he felt he needed a capital city much nearer the economic center of the Empire), he finally selected a spot on the Bosporus called Byzantium. The reason he selected this spot to be the "New Rome" was because it was a small village also located on "Seven Hills." This made "New Rome" as a City of Seven Hills.

What we observe is the fact that the ancients symbolically looked on the various capitals of the world as having "Seven Hills." The significance of this fact even had a meaning for the apostle John who, under the influence of Christ Jesus himself, wrote the Book of Revelation. We find that the last world capital would be "Mystery Babylon" and that it would have "seven mountains" (Revelation 17:9) associated with it. The fact that history has "Seven Hills" (or "Mountains") associated with FOUR world kingdoms: Babylon, Rome, Byzantium, and Jerusalem, there has been some confusion about which of these (or, perhaps, another "New City") was the intention of the apostle John who was writing for Christ Jesus in the Book of Revelation. The truth is, however, when one looks at the subject of the Book of Revelation carefully, there is only one of those "Cities of Seven Hills" that could possibly be the subject of the End-Time revelation. That is the City of Jerusalem. The "Mystery Babylon" of the Book of Revelation is none other than Jerusalem!

The last world kingdom will be headquartered in Jerusalem, not in Rome, Babylon on the Euphrates or in Byzantium, or anywhere else. The Antichrist will come to Jerusalem. He will look in all appearances as though he is none other than Christ Jesus himself. Remember, Satan and his angels will be expelled from heaven and come to earth (Revelation 12). The world will make a big mistake and think that Satan and his angels are none other than Christ and His angels returning from heaven at the Second Advent. This is the "great lie" the world will believe that the apostle Paul spoke about it Second Thessalonians 2:8-12. The world will think that Satan is none other than Christ. However, I have been telling you readers for over thirty years that the first person who claims to be the returned Christ to earth (even if great miracles are associated with him) IS the false Christ, called in other parts of the Holy Scriptures by the title of Antichrist. The false Christ will come to Jerusalem (the "City of Seven Hills") in order to rule the world, NOT to Rome in Italy!

The false Christ will come to a rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem and his image will be placed in the Holy of Holies. He will point out that this is lawful to do in the Mosaic legislation (Exodus 25:18-22; 26:31; 36:8). [For more information on what will occur in this New Temple in Jerusalem, see my new book "The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot" which has just gone to the printers and will be offered to you in mid-April. The book is complete, but I have so much more historical information to give you that I will first publish the book, then I will have a new article each month explaining various aspects of the research on the Internet for the next twelve months or so. This is because the important and significant information on the history of the Temples is so extensive that even after the publication of the book, I will have much, much more evidence of a prophetic nature to present that it will require at least a year for me to record it all for you. This research involving the full extent of the true knowledge concerning the Temples will be presented on the Internet.]

After three and a half years of the rule of the Antichrist, the Second Advent of Christ Jesus (our Elder Brother) will occur. All of us will then triumph during those traumatic days on the horizon (without us having to hoard food). In the meantime, we have a big job to do in teaching the Gospel to the world. I hope all of us will be about our Father's business in showing the world these vital truths of the Gospel.

Ernest L. Martin

prewrath rap wrote:The Seven Hills of Jerusalem

By Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 2000

I have already responded specifically to that article, and demonstrated how it is inaccurate.

To date, no one has proivded any evidence that Jerusalem was ever known as a city on seven hills at any time proximate to the 1st century.

Rome, on the other hand, was.

Seven hills of Rome
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For the film starring Mario Lanza, see Seven Hills of Rome (film).
The Seven Hills of Rome east of the Tiber form the heart of Rome. The Seven Hills of early-Rome were the Cermalus, Cispius, Fagutal, Oppius, Palatium, Sucusa, and Velia. They figure prominently into Roman mythology, religion, and politics; the original city was held by tradition to have been founded by Romulus on the Palatine Hill (Collis Palatinus). The other six of the Seven Hills of later-Rome are the Aventine Hill (Collis Aventinus), the Capitoline Hill (Collis Capitolinus), the Quirinal Hill (Collis Quirinalis), the Viminal Hill (Collis Viminalis), the Esquiline Hill (Collis Esquilinus), and the Caelian Hill (Collis Caelius).

The now-famous Vatican Hill (Collis Vaticanus) is northwest of the Tiber and is not one of the Seven Hills of Rome. Likewise, the Pincian Hill (Pincius Mons), to the north, and the Janiculum (Ianiculum), to the west, are not counted among the traditional Seven Hills.

Of the Seven Hills of later-Rome, five of them (in Italian) (Aventino, Celio, Esquilino, Quirinale, Viminale) are populated areas with monuments, buildings and parks; the Campidoglio (Capitol Hill) now hosts the Municipality of Rome; the Palatino is an archaeological area.

Aventino
Campidoglio (Capitolinus Mons)
Celio
Esquilino
Palatino
Quirinale
Viminale
[edit]
Biblical reference
One of the most famous references that possibly refers to the Seven Hills of Rome is the prophetic imagery of the Book of Revelation. Revelation 17 makes reference to the "great harlot" seated on "a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names, with seven heads and ten horns," and the angel speaking to St. John says:

Rev 17:9 (KJV) And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and, when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
The angel adds that:

Rev 17:18 (KJV) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
There remains considerable hermeneutic disagreement among Biblical scholars as to which city and which kings this passage refers to. Protestants have long considered Revelation 17 to identify the papacy and the Roman Catholic Church, as the Cathedra (seat) of the Bishop of Rome; the Pope, is located at the Lateran Cathedral, which is on one of the seven hills of Rome, the Celio. Today, Catholic apologists would counter that Jerusalem ("the Holy City") is just as likely, that it was also sited on seven hills.

[edit]
See also
List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills for other cities known for being built upon seven hills.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Rome"

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit
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Many cities other than Rome and Jerusalem have been claimed to be built upon seven hills. The following is a partial list of these cities.

This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.
Australia

Brisbane
Melbourne
Belgium

Brussels
Belize

San Ignacio
Brazil

Rio de Janeiro
Bulgaria

Plovdiv
Cameroon

Yaoundé
Canada

Peterborough
Czech Republic

Prague
Finland

Turku
France

Besançon
Nimes
Saint-Étienne
Germany

Bamberg
Greece

Athens
Hungary

Kaposvár
Veszprém
India

Thiruvananthapuram
Israel/West Bank

Jerusalem
Italy

Rome
Siena
Jordan

Amman
Madagascar

Antananarivo
Moldova

Chişinău
New Zealand

Dunedin
Norway

Bergen
Portugal

Lisbon
Romania

Bucharest
Iaşi
Tulcea
Russia

Moscow
South Africa

Pretoria
Turkey

Istanbul
Uganda

Kampala
Ukraine

Kyiv
L'viv
Dnipropetrovsk
United Kingdom

England

Bath
Bristol
Cambridge
Durham
Sheffield
Torquay
Scotland

Edinburgh
United States

Cincinnati, Ohio
Ellicott City, Maryland
Lynchburg, Virginia
Marshall, Texas
Providence, Rhode Island
Rome, Georgia
Seattle, Washington
Somerville, Massachusetts
Tallahassee, Florida
Worcester, Massachusetts
San Francisco, California

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ci ... even_hills"

The City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills." This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an eighth century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills" (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was. Those "seven hills" are easy to identify. If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives. The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One], the middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two], the highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13). On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name), then the "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five] and then to the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six]. And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion." This makes "Seven Hills" in all.

Rome has its ups and downs
The city of Rome is built on, or around, a series of seven hills. As legend has it, the twins Romulus and Remus began building a city at the foot of the Palatine hill where the she-wolf found them.
Interestingly, the city of Jerusalem is also built on seven hills, and there is some scholastic disagreement about whether the reference in the Book of Revelations 17, is directed at one or the other:

"Here is a clue for one who has wisdom. The seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits. They also represent seven kings: five have already fallen, one still lives, and the last has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a short while."

http://www.forbeginners.info/rome/facts-trivia/


Another city of seven hills

Amman Travel Guide
Attractions

Originally spread over seven hills, or jabals, the capital of the Hashemite kingdom now sprawls over 19 hills and is home to well over a million people, almost half the country's population. Known as the White City, the hills are covered in a jumble of light-coloured stone houses, consistently box-like in shape with flat roofs characteristic of a typical desert city. Faded minarets, pavement markets, Arabian sweet shops and the crumbling remains of ancient civilisations contrast wonderfully with the contemporary edifices, fashionable boutiques and international restaurants. This blend of the old and the new combines in the noisy and chaotic downtown area where the city's extraordinarily friendly residents go about their business.


And another - http://prospectus.maths.ed.ac.uk/edinbu ... hcity.html

Like Rome, Athens and Jerusalem, Edinburgh is built on seven hills. A climb to the top of one of them, Arthur's Seat (an extinct volcano), will open a vista across Edinburgh. From there you can see the contrasting skylines of the Old and New Towns.

To the South of the main railway line is the Old Town, with its meandering Wynds and narrow Closes. To the north lie the geometrically precise layouts of the Georgian New Town.

From this vantage point you can also see the Forth to the north, and the Pentland Hills to the South. This sheltered, coastal location protects the City from the elements, so Edinburgh does not suffer the ravages of the infamous Scottish weather, but has its own pleasantly mild and dry climate.

prewrath rap wrote:Seven hills of Rome
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit
(Redirected from Seven Hills of Rome)

Unfortunately none of these are relevant to the Revelation, except for Rome.

Revelation speaks of a city which existed in the 1st century AD, which was on seven hills at that time, and which ruled over the kings of the earth at that time.

None of the other cities mentioned here fit those criteria.

prewrath rap wrote:Interestingly, the city of Jerusalem is also built on seven hills, and there is some scholastic disagreement about whether the reference in the Book of Revelations 17, is directed at one or the other:

Revelation is talking about a city which stood on seven hills in the 1st century AD. It is therefore irrelevant whether or not Jerusalem today stands on seven hills.

prewrath rap wrote:The City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills." This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an eighth century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills" (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111).

I have dealt with this already. It was not 'well recognized in Jewish circles', this passage from Eliezer is being quoted out of context, and was written in the 8th century in any case.

I have provided 1st century evidence demonstrating that 1st century Jews understood Jerusalem to be on two hills, and Rome to be on seven.

And, so it was. Those "seven hills" are easy to identify. If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives. The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One], the middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two], the highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13). On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name), then the "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five] and then to the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six]. And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion." This makes "Seven Hills" in all.

None of this is relevant to 1st century Jerusalem, which stood on two hills not seven.

And by the way vatican does not sit within the original seven hills of Rome

So it can't be the vatican because it is not a city that sits on seven hills

only one



Go look that one up in history and geography

get your facts straight

and Rome was originally founded on only one hill Romulus.

and that is well established


Mark

The vatican is a city state which makes it totaly independent from Rome, politically. The vatican is so named the vatican because of the Hill it sits upon.

The equating Rome and the vatican as one is an incorrect assumpttion IMHO.

prewrath rap wrote:And by the way vatican does not sit within the original seven hills of Rome

So it can't be the vatican because it is not a city that sits on seven hills

only one



Go look that one up in history and geography

get your facts straight

I haven't been talking about the Vatican, I have been talking about the city of Rome. But while we're on the subject of the Vatican, here's an interesting quote from the Catholic Encyclopaedia:

'It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined.

By treaty with the Italian Government certain other properties apart from the Vatican State are considered as territorial parts of the state of Vatican City.

Since the founding of the Church there by St. Peter, the city of Rome has been the center of Christendom. The city itself is the diocese of the pope as bishop of Rome.'

The Catholic Encyclopedia, edited by Robert C. Broderick, Imprimatur of the Most Reverend William E. Cousins, Archbishop of Milwaukee, Nihil Obstat of the Reverend Richard J. Sklba, published by Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1976 edition, entry on Rome, page 529

and Rome was originally founded on only one hill Romulus.

and that is well established

We are not talking about what it was founded on originally. We are talking about what it sat on in the 1st century.

he phrase 'city on seven hills' was an idiom in common use in the Roman empire, from at least 76 BC through to 104 AD.

The following quotes from Roman poets and historians make this plain:

'Rome... the city of the seven hills.'

Cicero, c. 76 BC, 'Letters to Atticus', VI. 5


'Rome became of all things the fairest, and within a single city's wall enclosed her seven hills.

...glorious Rome shall bound her empire with earth, her pride by heaven, and with a single city's wall shall enclose her seven hills.'

Virgil, c. 40 BC, 'Georgics', II; Aenead IV


'...sing the hymn in honour of the gods who love the Seven Hills. ...ne're mayest thou be able to view aught greater than the city of Rome!'

Horace, c. 35 BC, A Secular Hymn, 'The Odes and Epodes', p. 351


'The city high-throned on the seven hills, the queen of all the world... Rome take thy triumph...'

Propertius, c. 20 BC, The Elegies, III. xi


'...Rome, that gazes about from her seven hills upon the whole world - Rome, the place of empire and the gods.'

Ovid, c. 12 BC, Tristia, I. 70


'...may you see the seven sovereign hills and take the measure of all Rome...'

Martial, 40-104 AD, Epigrams, IV. Lxiv

To which may be added Plutarch (AD 46), Tibullus, Pliny, Silius Italicus, Statius, Claudian, Prudentius, the Emperor Vespasian (AD 69), and Dionysius Halicarnassus (late first century AD).

It is a simple fact that Rome was understood to be referred to by this idiom — prior to the first century, not during the first century, and not after the first century.

The evidence therefore indicates that Revelation is using a phrase already in the common speech of the day, which would be readily familiar to the reader of the book.