Evidence for God from Science

XenonII wrote:Sure, it is in Romans 1:32 which says: "Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

I've already shown that this verse doesn't say what you want it to say. Also note the entire list of bad stuff that precedes this -- envy, hate, murder, fighting, backstabbing, deception, hatred of god, being insolent, boastful, and proud. The verse is stating that all of these sins is deserving of death, not that Christians should put these people to death. In fact, many of the people Paul was addressing in this letter were guilty of these things -- this letter was a warning of God's ultimate punishment of sin, not a note saying "Go out and kill these people." It's simply a reiteration of the long-known fact that "The wages of sin is death."

I'm not justifying it i'm pointing out the hypocrispy in one sin being spoken out against so strongly and another being practically ignored.

Then you haven't been in any of the churches I've been in, or in any of the Christian bookstores I've been in. Other forms of fornication are far from unaddressed. Books on conquering sexual sin(in general) outnumber books on how to overcome homosexuality(specifically) in your life at least 100 to 1. Even in the best-selling "Every Man's Battle" series, which is mostly about sexual sin, homosexuality is mentioned at the very end of some of the books as more of a footnote. Nothing too indepth. Strangely, the best passage on homosexuality and its probable causes I've read was in a book that's not really about homosexuality at all -- Wild at Heart by John Eldredge.

It's not that other sexual sins are unaddressed -- it's that they are culturally accepted norms and have been for years, and it's very hard(though by no means impossible) to get people to turn away from cultural norms. The fact that people speaking out against homosexuality get more airtime than people speaking out about other sexual sins has also clouded your perception. Also, preachers can't take full responsibility for all problems that persist -- they merely preach on the issues and do some basic counseling; it's the people who hear the message who have to take it to heart and actually apply it to their lives. It's an uphill battle to say the least, but one that's still being fought quite vigorously, whether you see it or not.

XenonII wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: I have. Can you point out where in Romans it says homosexuals should be put to death?

Sure, it is in Romans 1:32 which says: "Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

LittleShepherd wrote:No, it doesn't. The first chapter mentions that all the sins in it are worthy of death, but not that Christians should put said people to death. In fact, the New Testament simply states that "X action is wrong," never "X action should be punished by X method." The Old Testament laws given to Israel in the desert were to be used to run a country -- not so with the New Testament rules given to Christians.

LS is right. You need to understand the Bible a little better before you begin criticizing it.

XenonII wrote:I'm not justifying it i'm pointing out the hypocrispy in one sin being spoken out against so strongly and another being practically ignored. If fornication was actually spoken out against as strongly there would be a lot less of it or at least it wouldnt be so approved of. Because no one is saying anything about it people aren't even aware that its a real sin.

The other is spoken out against too, but society simply ignores it. How many fights are going on about teaching abstenance in schools? The only difference is that homosexuality is at least a moral standard that has a chance to be challenged. Other issues don't have any support from society as a whole, so the only recourse is to address that on an individual basis.

Felgar wrote:LS is right. You need to understand the Bible a little better before you begin criticizing it.

I understand it fine its people twisting it to suit their own viewpoint that need to understand it better if they are worthy of death it stands to reason that they should be put to death aswell.

The other is spoken out against too, but society simply ignores it. How many fights are going on about teaching abstenance in schools? The only difference is that homosexuality is at least a moral standard that has a chance to be challenged. Other issues don't have any support from society as a whole, so the only recourse is to address that on an individual basis.

Right, so because society ignores it you should just give up right? I think the battle against homosexuality is going exactly the same way as the one against fornication has gone.

LittleShepherd wrote: I've already shown that this verse doesn't say what you want it to say. Also note the entire list of bad stuff that precedes this -- envy, hate, murder, fighting, backstabbing, deception, hatred of god, being insolent, boastful, and proud. The verse is stating that all of these sins is deserving of death, not that Christians should put these people to death. In fact, many of the people Paul was addressing in this letter were guilty of these things -- this letter was a warning of God's ultimate punishment of sin, not a note saying "Go out and kill these people." It's simply a reiteration of the long-known fact that "The wages of sin is death."

Romans 1:24-32 (TMB): 24 So God said, in effect, "If that's what you want, that's what you get." It wasn't long before they were living in a pigpen, smeared with filth, filthy inside and out.

25 And all this because they traded the true God for a fake god, and worshiped the god they made instead of the God who made them--the God we bless, the God who blesses us. Oh, yes!

26 Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn't know how to be human either--women didn't know how to be women, men didn't know how to be men.

27 Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men--all lust, no love. And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for it--emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.

28 Since they didn't bother to acknowledge God, God quit bothering them and let them run loose.

29 And then all hell broke loose: rampant evil, grabbing and grasping, vicious backstabbing. They made life hell on earth with their envy, wanton killing, bickering, and cheating. Look at them: mean-spirited, venomous,

30 fork-tongued God-bashers. Bullies, swaggerers, insufferable windbags! They keep inventing new ways of wrecking lives. They ditch their parents when they get in the way.

31 Stupid, slimy, cruel, cold-blooded.

32 And it's not as if they don't know better. They know perfectly well they're spitting in God's face. And they don't care--worse, they hand out prizes to those who do the worst things best!

The sin here is homosexuality and Romans 1:29-31 lists personality traits of homosexuals. I think it sums up the typical heterosexual lifestyle in these end times pretty good aswell.

Then you haven't been in any of the churches I've been in, or in any of the Christian bookstores I've been in. Other forms of fornication are far from unaddressed. Books on conquering sexual sin(in general) outnumber books on how to overcome homosexuality(specifically) in your life at least 100 to 1. Even in the best-selling "Every Man's Battle" series, which is mostly about sexual sin, homosexuality is mentioned at the very end of some of the books as more of a footnote. Nothing too indepth. Strangely, the best passage on homosexuality and its probable causes I've read was in a book that's not really about homosexuality at all -- Wild at Heart by John Eldredge.

The christian right is obsessed with the subject they should spend 99% of the time on heterosexual sin which is running rampant rather than the 1% of sin that is homosexual yet its the other way round. Hate sites like the American Family Association is a good example with their misinformation and propoganda.

It's not that other sexual sins are unaddressed -- it's that they are culturally accepted norms and have been for years, and it's very hard(though by no means impossible) to get people to turn away from cultural norms. The fact that people speaking out against homosexuality get more airtime than people speaking out about other sexual sins has also clouded your perception. Also, preachers can't take full responsibility for all problems that persist -- they merely preach on the issues and do some basic counseling; it's the people who hear the message who have to take it to heart and actually apply it to their lives. It's an uphill battle to say the least, but one that's still being fought quite vigorously, whether you see it or not.

Its only been culturally accepted for a few decades at the most where as it was unnaceptable for 1000s of years and it cant be fought very vigorously at all 'coz no I dont see it all I see is gay bashing, using gays as scapegoats for all the sexual immorality that goes on in the world.

XenonII wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: I have. Can you point out where in Romans it says homosexuals should be put to death?

Sure, it is in Romans 1:32 which says: "Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

Perhaps I am missing something, but where again in Romans does it say homosexuals "are" to be put to death?

XenonII wrote:I'm not justifying it i'm pointing out the hypocrispy in one sin being spoken out against so strongly and another being practically ignored.

Call it justifying or not, but it still seems obvious to me that even in your words here you see homosexuality, and point out another sin (i.e., as found within fornication) with the purpose off trying to get homosexuality off the hook. Yet, it still doesn't get around the fact you indirectly acknowledge (whether consciously or subconsciously) that both actions are wrong by placing them on par with each other.

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo wrote: Perhaps I am missing something, but where again in Romans does it say homosexuals "are" to be put to death?

Romans 1:32 It says they should be and deserve to be put to death by God. Should Gods wishes and opinion be ignored?

Call it justifying or not, but it still seems obvious to me that in your words even here that you view one sin (i.e., homosexuality), and point to another sin (i.e., as found within fornication) as though such lets homosexuality off the hook. Yet, it still doesn't get around the fact you acknowledged (whether consciously or subconsciously) both actions are sins.

All sins are equal (except one of course) but the Christian right are letting fornication off the hook just because its more "moraly" acceptable among non-Christians. They are letting non-Christians dictate their agenda not the other way around and seeing as this sin is so common it needs far more attention and effort put into combating it not less.

Romans 1:32 It says they should be and deserve to be put to death by God. Should Gods wishes and opinion be ignored?

That's hardly the only time that a sin was called worthy of death. In fact, the Bible states that the wages of sin(any and all sin) is death. If you read other passages in the Bible, however, you'd realize that giving us what we deserve is not what God wishes to do. We all, heterosexual and homosexual, deserve death, but God wants to give us eternal life instead. You'd know that if you read more than that single chapter of the Bible. Of course, your tactic relies on isolating one passage of Scripture from the rest, and then on misrepresenting that passage. No matter how much you want it to, claiming that someone is worthy of death is not a call for your followers to take it upon themselves to kill those people.

All sins are equal (except one of course) but the Christian right are letting fornication off the hook just because its more "moraly" acceptable among non-Christians. They are letting non-Christians dictate their agenda not the other way around and seeing as this sin is so common it needs far more attention and effort put into combating it not less.

No, the fight against other forms of fornication is as strong as ever. The fight against homosexuality is being waged in addition to, not in place of, the fight against other types of fornication. If you want to be willfully ignorant of this fact, then fine. That Christians are ignoring other forms of fornication, however, is simply not true, no matter how much you want it to be.

LittleShepherd wrote:That Christians are ignoring other forms of fornication, however, is simply not true, no matter how much you want it to be.

Right LS... Despite this being off-topic, the answer to my earlier rhetorical question is that there are many examples of resistance to current eductaion trends that replace abstinence with so-called "safe sex."

LittleShepherd wrote:

Romans 1:32 It says they should be and deserve to be put to death by God. Should Gods wishes and opinion be ignored?

That's hardly the only time that a sin was called worthy of death. In fact, the Bible states that the wages of sin(any and all sin) is death. If you read other passages in the Bible, however, you'd realize that giving us what we deserve is not what God wishes to do. We all, heterosexual and homosexual, deserve death, but God wants to give us eternal life instead. You'd know that if you read more than that single chapter of the Bible. Of course, your tactic relies on isolating one passage of Scripture from the rest, and then on misrepresenting that passage. No matter how much you want it to, claiming that someone is worthy of death is not a call for your followers to take it upon themselves to kill those people.

All sins are equal (except one of course) but the Christian right are letting fornication off the hook just because its more "moraly" acceptable among non-Christians. They are letting non-Christians dictate their agenda not the other way around and seeing as this sin is so common it needs far more attention and effort put into combating it not less.

No, the fight against other forms of fornication is as strong as ever. The fight against homosexuality is being waged in addition to, not in place of, the fight against other types of fornication. If you want to be willfully ignorant of this fact, then fine. That Christians are ignoring other forms of fornication, however, is simply not true, no matter how much you want it to be.

God does though eventually give us what we deserve and we choose what happens to us by our actions. If we choose to disobay and isolate ourselves from God thats what he will gives us. God only gives us what we ask for he cant go against the free will that he has given us.

Hmmm I dont think its just me thats "willfully ignorant" but about 95% of society that doesnt notice Christians allegedy speaking out against fornication. I've never really heard much about it myself so it must be a pretty rare occurance. When they do speak out against sexual sin 99% of the time its against homosexuality, or thats the dominent theme above all others, they go on and on about that constantly and say very little about fornication which is only about 100 times more common and only occurs 1000s and 1000s of times more regularly. Seems they need to get their priorities straight and not avoid preaching against a sin just because it has become the "norm".

XenonII wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: Perhaps I am missing something, but where again in Romans does it say homosexuals "are" to be put to death?

Romans 1:32 It says they should be and deserve to be put to death by God.

Does it say "they should"—where exactly for I only see that they are deserving of death? Yet as Paul clearly reveals, all are guilty of sin (Romans 3:10; Romans 3:23)—"no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Romans 3:20) As such we are also deserving of death (Romans 6:23), since the wages of sin is death (such a concept having its roots in Judaism right back at Adam and Eve, Israel's sacrificial system, and well into Christianity). Does this mean Paul is saying all people "should be" put to death? I don't think so. You're adding what is clearly not there.

Now up until 3:21 Paul has been building a case so that everyone feels helpless before God. As everyone has sinned, to put bluntly, we are all buggered. However, at 3:21 Paul changes his tone from one of despair, to the solution:

• 21But [theologians have believed this "but" covers all previously said in Romans] now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

So although we all deserve death before God, it has already been paid for via Christ. As I'm sure you are aware, this is a simple but main doctrine within Christianity.

XenonII wrote:

Call it justifying or not, but it still seems obvious to me that in your words even here that you view one sin (i.e., homosexuality), and point to another sin (i.e., as found within fornication) as though such lets homosexuality off the hook. Yet, it still doesn't get around the fact you acknowledged (whether consciously or subconsciously) both actions are sins.

All sins are equal (except one of course) but the Christian right are letting fornication off the hook just because its more "moraly" acceptable among non-Christians. They are letting non-Christians dictate their agenda not the other way around and seeing as this sin is so common it needs far more attention and effort put into combating it not less.

All sins are equal? I'm not so sure in what way for many have varying physical or emotional consequences, and I'm sure most would agree murder and rape is much worse than swearing or smoking up. As for the "Christian right," it sounds like you are talking about some sort of military camp specifically out to get homosexuals. Now I don't know where you are getting your information from, but it sounds highly steeped in emotionalism. I don't know what Christians you know, or churches you've been in, but I haven't come across one who would justify fornication as alright. Perhaps Christians just don't speak out about the sins within it as much (although I'm certain they do to the youth), since fornicators aren't as vocal as homosexuals who have their parades, television shows, and protests against laws.

But perhaps some Christians do focus too much on one particular sin (i.e., homosexuality), while ignoring their own similar ones, and to them Paul says in Romans 2:1-3:

• 1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
  2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
  3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

God will judge "all" sins, and what matters is what God thinks, not what a group within humanity think. So even if Christians somehow took a better light to promiscuity or fornication than homosexuality, God is going to be the one judging us. And so if practicing homosexuality and fornication is wrong, it is God (not Christians) one is accountable to.

Kurieuo.

It depends which version of Romans 1:32 you examine and I dont have time to go through them all now but im SURE I saw at least one that said "should be put to death"...

And yes all sin is equal (except blasphemy against the holy spirit). You cant grade sin. Grading sin is like saying a woman who has only been pregnant a few weeks is a "little pregnant". Either she is pregnant or she isnt! You may think one sin is worse than another, but not to God. To God sin is simply sin! It all has the same consequence in the end. And as for the parades well fornicators dont need them coz they are already accepted by society! And I think the parades are for tolerance of the orientation not acceptance of the "lifestyle" anyway.

And yeah the parades are over the top, they dont have to carry on like they do but they are just poking fun of the stereotypes, but we cant say no to them that would be abuse of basic human rights such as the freedom to protest and the freedom of assembly.

And yeah fornicators DO have their tv shows! Its called the entertainment industry/hollywood.. All that liberal propoganda promoting premarital sex, lesbianism, a self centered attitude, greed, and other anti-christian behaviour and viewpoints. And you cant expect fornicators to be protesting against laws that dont exist against them. Adulturey when married is not even illegal why the hell not?!

XenonII wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Does it say "they should"—where exactly for I only see that they are deserving of death? Yet as Paul clearly reveals, all are guilty of sin (Romans 3:10; Romans 3:23)—"no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Romans 3:20) As such we are also deserving of death (Romans 6:23), since the wages of sin is death (such a concept having its roots in Judaism right back at Adam and Eve, Israel's sacrificial system, and well into Christianity). Does this mean Paul is saying all people "should be" put to death? I don't think so. You're adding what is clearly not there.

It depends which version of Romans 1:32 you examine and I dont have time to go through them all now but im SURE I saw at least one that said "should be put to death"...

I can tell you now, any translation that'd say such a thing is wrong when compared against the original language. Perhaps you got confused and mixed in Leviticus with Romans? If you did find such a translation, it would have to be as hideous as the TMB one you quoted from earlier for Romans 1, which mind you wasn't really from the TMB (see TMB translation here).

XenonII wrote:And yes all sin is equal (except blasphemy against the holy spirit). You cant grade sin. Grading sin is like saying a woman who has only been pregnant a few weeks is a "little pregnant". Either she is pregnant or she isnt! You may think one sin is worse than another, but not to God. To God sin is simply sin! It all has the same consequence in the end.

I believe God can't accept any sin, but this doesn't mean all sin is equal. And I think we can also judge what sins are worse by the destruction they cause. For example, rape is clearly worse than swearing since rape causes much more harm to the victim.

XenonII wrote:And as for the parades well fornicators dont need them coz they are already accepted by society! And I think the parades are for tolerance of the orientation not acceptance of the "lifestyle" anyway.

"Homosexuals" are accepted by society—they wouldn't have their parades, and prime time television (i.e., Queer Eye for the Straight Guy—which I actually don't mind watching ) if they weren't accepted. Yet, homosexual behaviour isn't accepted by everyone as being morally alright. If this is what "homosexuals" are wanting acceptance of, then they'll have to force their morality onto everyone, which seems to me what they appear to be doing by trying to change laws.

XenonII wrote:And yeah fornicators DO have their tv shows! Its called the entertainment industry/hollywood.. All that liberal propoganda promoting premarital sex, lesbianism, a self centered attitude, greed, and other anti-christian behaviour and viewpoints. And you cant expect fornicators to be protesting against laws that dont exist against them. Adulturey when married is not even illegal why the hell not?!

Good points. I believe adultery is illegal in some places, but our Western societies are far too liberal for such a thing to be taken seriously. And so, after our exchanges it seems we are more in agreement than it looked when we first started out?

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo wrote: I can tell you now, any translation that'd say such a thing is wrong when compared against the original language. Perhaps you got confused and mixed in Leviticus with Romans? If you did find such a translation, it would have to be as hideous as the TMB one you quoted from earlier for Romans 1, which mind you wasn't really from the TMB (see TMB translation here).

Sorry I ment TMB as The Message Bible, never heard of the Third Millennium Bible.

I believe God can't accept any sin, but this doesn't mean all sin is equal. And I think we can also judge what sins are worse by the destruction they cause. For example, rape is clearly worse than swearing since rape causes much more harm to the victim.

God can't accept sin and almost all sin is equal. It's true from a moral or legal standpoint that rape is worse than swearing, but thats mans way of thinking not Gods. Iin God's eyes sin is sin and swearing is as bad as rape. Sin can't be graded, it all results in the same consequence if it goes un repented for.

"Homosexuals" are accepted by society—they wouldn't have their parades, and prime time television (i.e., Queer Eye for the Straight Guy—which I actually don't mind watching ) if they weren't accepted. Yet, homosexual behaviour isn't accepted by everyone as being morally alright. If this is what "homosexuals" are wanting acceptance of, then they'll have to force their morality onto everyone, which seems to me what they appear to be doing by trying to change laws.

Nothing much to argue with here. Why do you put homosexuals in brackets though, would you put alcoholic in brackets? And what laws are they trying to change?

Good points. I believe adultery is illegal in some places, but our Western societies are far too liberal for such a thing to be taken seriously. And so, after our exchanges it seems we are more in agreement than it looked when we first started out?

I guess so. I always knew it was wrong because of the fact all sexual behaviour outside of a monogomous (sp?) marriage is, so its obvious from that homosexual behaviour is sin. I'm just very wary of the arguments used against it, that they should always be factual and correct. If this appaling excuse for a "society" cant take something as morally repugnant as adultury seriously why would it bother taking homosexuality seriously, still at least thats the way it seems to be going.

XenonII wrote:
Homosexuality does NOT harm society, but the effects of homophobia can be devistating!

.

Why are you so defensive of homosexuals? Are you gay?

It IS a very unhappy "lifestyle". But why is that? Its not so much to do with the sexuality per se, but the rampant homophobia and unaceptance that goes along with it!

If they don't want to face it, let them be normal.

And worldwide 96% of people with the disease are straight so if anything it is a heterosexual disease

That's because of ignorance in third world countries. In developed countries, gays make up most of the victims due to their promiscuity and lifestyle.

I dont know why so called Christians spend so much energy opposing homosexuals when fornication is running rampant in their own community (heterosexual) and you'd think that would be a far bigger and greater problem that needs tackling especially when nothing is ever said anything about it.

They do say something about it. Ever heard of abstinence programs?
At least most fornicators are straight.

ochotseat wrote: Why are you so defensive of homosexuals? Are you gay?

BECAUSE I hate misrepresentation, discrimination, bigotry etc and above all STEREOTYPES that say a whole segment of the population behaves in a certain way because I know it's just not true. There's nothing gay about being "gay" and no I don't lead a homosexual "lifestyle" as I don't engage in homosexual acts. That's MY CHOICE. I dont like labels either, putting people into narrowly defined little boxes so you can treat them like [poop], I don't think Jesus sees us either gay or straight black or white, SINNERS maybe, but just as people.

If they don't want to face it, let them be normal.

Who the hell are you to say what is and isnt normal?! And how do you propose that seeing as it IS unchosen and according to the Bible IS a mental disorder, that apparently has no cure, at least for most sufferers of this terrible sexual handicap. Let them be celibate its about the best you can hope for. They will still have those horrible thoughts plague their minds which we all do from time to time but unless they are dwelled on and entertained to the extent they become lust, then there's no problem.

That's because of ignorance in third world countries. In developed countries, gays make up most of the victims due to their promiscuity and lifestyle.

Which just goes to show africans are ignorant and promiscius due to their lifestyle. As for gays, there is no one single gay lifestyle, not all are promiscuis (some are celibate) in fact only a small but very active minority are.

They do say something about it. Ever heard of abstinence programs?
At least most fornicators are straight.

Yeah spitting in the wind im afraid, most straights laugh at the idea of abstinence!!! and ALL fornicators are straight. Fornicating is sex before marriage which only straights can do because only straights can get married! (So called gay "marriage" is a travesty of the term marriage and will NEVER be seen as a legitimate marriage in the eyes of the Lord).