Evidence for God from Science

I have yet to see a logical argument that proves Christianity to be true, or any religion for that matter.

What would constitute a logical argument for God's existence to you? I have yet to see a logical argument for your existence.

I have yet to see a logical argument that proves Christianity to be true, or any religion for that matter.

Then please give us back all of the assumptions you are presupposing that you are stealing from Christianity you thief.

For example, the presuppositon that you can reason and that there is in fact logic. You have no basis for it. You're also stealing objective truth, and the idea there is truth as well. Cough it all up then and give em' back. See what you're left to live with that your worldview can giive you.

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:

I have yet to see a logical argument that proves Christianity to be true, or any religion for that matter.

Then please give us back all of the assumptions you are presupposing that you are stealing from Christianity you thief.

For example, the presuppositon that you can reason and that there is in fact logic. You have no basis for it. You're also stealing objective truth, and the idea there is truth as well. Cough it all up then and give em' back. See what you're left to live with that your worldview can giive you.

Hmm, it seems that logic and reason are Christian inventions. That is news to me. Objective truth? Is that only for Christians? Is that objective?

August wrote:

I have yet to see a logical argument that proves Christianity to be true, or any religion for that matter.

What would constitute a logical argument for God's existence to you? I have yet to see a logical argument for your existence.

PLease read carefully. I did NOT claim that God doesn't exist.

I am waiting for one of you believers to provide me with a decent proof of Christianity.

jb48237 wrote:

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:

I have yet to see a logical argument that proves Christianity to be true, or any religion for that matter.

Then please give us back all of the assumptions you are presupposing that you are stealing from Christianity you thief.

For example, the presuppositon that you can reason and that there is in fact logic. You have no basis for it. You're also stealing objective truth, and the idea there is truth as well. Cough it all up then and give em' back. See what you're left to live with that your worldview can giive you.

Hmm, it seems that logic and reason are Christian inventions. That is news to me. Objective truth? Is that only for Christians? Is that objective?

No, I said Christianity has the basis for many of the things that your worldview, and in fact most worldviews, have no basis for...maybe if you'd read once in a while....

jb48237 wrote:

August wrote:

I have yet to see a logical argument that proves Christianity to be true, or any religion for that matter.

What would constitute a logical argument for God's existence to you? I have yet to see a logical argument for your existence.

PLease read carefully. I did NOT claim that God doesn't exist.

I am waiting for one of you believers to provide me with a decent proof of Christianity.

He did read carefully, he didn't say you said there was no God, now did he?

jb48237 wrote:1.) Evidence is available which verifies the truth of Christianity.

I don't see this evidence.

Arguing from the existence of a Creator only proves that there is a Creator- not necessarily a historical God, which is someting else alltogether.

"Fulfilled prophecies" from the Bible don't prove anything. For a non-believer, all you have shown is that the Bible CLAIMS to have fulfilled prophecies, not that they actually WERE fulfilled.

Arguing from the fact that the early Church members were persecuted, and wouldn't have continued in a false belief under those circumstances doesn't work. The same could be said for Moslem suicide bombers- their beliefs must be true if they are willing to die for them. Or, you can say that the survival of Judaism over the past two millenia proves that their religion is right.

I have yet to see a logical argument that proves Christianity to be true, or any religion for that matter.

Circular reasoning. You first say "Christianity isn't true", then proceed to "all of the fulfilled prophecies were made up" which then leads you around the circle some more to where you say "Christianity can't be backed up by the myriad of prophecies that have been fulfilled", which leads you round full circle to the snake eating itself..that is, "Christianity isn't true"

For by faith are you saved. I don't think what you are seeking exists.
There are those who lived in the time when Jesus arose and still
didn't believe, There were those who saw him heal the blind and
cause the lame to walk and didn't believe. In fact Jesus said
to his followers, You believe because you see me, how much
harder for those who came after me.

I think the only way to proove God is true, is to look for him
yourself and see if you can find him. Jesus said that if you
seek him you will find him. I know that he exists because his
spirit bears witness to my spirit. What do you wan't a god
you can see and measure?

PLease read carefully. I did NOT claim that God doesn't exist.

Do you believe God exists then?

I am waiting for one of you believers to provide me with a decent proof of Christianity.

What would constitute decent proof to you?

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:
No, I said Christianity has the basis for many of the things that your worldview, and in fact most worldviews, have no basis for...maybe if you'd read once in a while....

Well, let's ignore your litle bit of mudslinging there (you know nothing of my reading habits), and get to the gist of it. What EXACTLY in my world view has no basis, while Christianity does supply the basis? Please be very specific. While you are at it, please let me know what my world view is. You seem to know an awful lot about it.

Let's do "most world views" as well.

Mind you, most world views are not Western at all. Most people are Indian or Chinese. And much of western culture is based on Greek ideas.

Have a nice day.

jb48237 wrote:

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:

I have yet to see a logical argument that proves Christianity to be true, or any religion for that matter.

Then please give us back all of the assumptions you are presupposing that you are stealing from Christianity you thief.

For example, the presuppositon that you can reason and that there is in fact logic. You have no basis for it. You're also stealing objective truth, and the idea there is truth as well. Cough it all up then and give em' back. See what you're left to live with that your worldview can giive you.

Hmm, it seems that logic and reason are Christian inventions. That is news to me. Objective truth? Is that only for Christians? Is that objective?

jb48237, I think you misunderstand the point, Logic and Reason are not inventions at all, neither by definition is objective truth. The point, I think, was that Logic and Reason are the result of an intelligent Creator God who made us in his image.

It seems apparent from your statements that you believe that Chrsitianity and all religions are false, or at least that there is no logical argument that they are true indicates that you may be an athiest or at least agnostic. Creation and Christianity answer a lot of questions that continue to be ignored from this athiestic world view. The logic of the argument is that Christianity answers these questions. If you would like to know what some of these questions are browse some of the forums or see some of the articles here at godandscience, that I have just begun reading myself. There is no need to rehash these in this forum when they sit unanswered in others.

Perhaps it would be more constructive if you would tell us your worldview instead of make us guess. When you walk in the light everything else is darkness.

[quote="Jbuza

Perhaps it would be more constructive if you would tell us your worldview instead of make us guess. When you walk in the light everything else is darkness.[/quote]

OK, to be brief, I believe that there is a Creator, but not necessarily a historical God who interacts with people, either now or historically. Yes this means a very different view of the Bible.

I remain confused as to how Christianity can claim logic and reasoning for itself. Though if you will tell me that the Creator created my brain and my ability to reason, I would go along with that.

My goal here is to try to understand your thinking. I will appreciate calm, polite explanations, and references to particular articles or web pages.

Thanks

JB

jb48237 wrote: I remain confused as to how Christianity can claim logic and reasoning for itself. Though if you will tell me that the Creator created my brain and my ability to reason, I would go along with that.

My goal here is to try to understand your thinking. I will appreciate calm, polite explanations, and references to particular articles or web pages.

Thanks

JB

I see, a disinterested creator I guess. This seems to not be logical or reasonable to me. What a wonderous and marvelous creation to not deem the interest of its maker, not comprehendable to me, but that's O.K. that is not my beleif

IF I believe that there is a creator God that is relected in the reason and logic of our beings, wouldn't that logic and reason exist in the persons of the other religions? I don't think that anyone was trying to claim that only Christians are logical or reasonable, but that they are a reflection of the mind of God, and the apparent order of his creation.

I would recommend http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext93/dcart10.txt as a place to read more about how a reasoning and logical mind testify to the existence of God and How methods in Science are most likely to yield the truth of the matter being investigated. There is some introductory information be the Projecy Gutenberg before the text of Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting One's Reason and of Seeking Truth in the Sciences

Doesn't anyone have a sense of humor these days? I mean, nobody gets puns, nobody gets a funny joke, nobody gets nothing. I personally found the Think Stooge HILARIOUS.

I remain confused as to how Christianity can claim logic and reasoning for itself. Though if you will tell me that the Creator created my brain and my ability to reason, I would go along with that.

I am not claiming only Christianity HAS logic and reasoning, but that only Christianity has a basis for it. You have no reason to have faith that your reasoning and logic are true-you have no reason to believe that what you believe to be true is in fact true.

jb48237 wrote:Arguing from the existence of a Creator only proves that there is a Creator- not necessarily a historical God, which is someting else alltogether.

Correct.

jb48237 wrote:Fulfilled prophecies" from the Bible don't prove anything. For a non-believer, all you have shown is that the Bible CLAIMS to have fulfilled prophecies, not that they actually WERE fulfilled.

Not true. This may be correct, if you are referring to Old Testament prophesies for which the gospels allege a fulfillment in Jesus. However, there are other prophesies for which the fulfillment is described in secular sources, rather than the Bible. The Tyre prophesy, for instance. People have written entire books listing such subjects. The latter portion of Peter Stoner's Science Speaks is an example. (The first part is a defense of old-earth creationism.)

jb48237 wrote:Arguing from the fact that the early Church members were persecuted, and wouldn't have continued in a false belief under those circumstances doesn't work. The same could be said for Moslem suicide bombers- their beliefs must be true if they are willing to die for them. Or, you can say that the survival of Judaism over the past two millenia proves that their religion is right.

You misunderstand the argument. The commonly cited argument is not about "early Church members" in general, but rather about those who could verify their own claims. For instance, the disciples knew whether the observable facts they stated about Jesus were true or not. For instance, they knew whether or not they had seen Jesus three days after the crucifixion. The apostle Paul would know whether he really had the conversion experience involving a vision that he claimed to have. People might have died for claims that they hadn't verified to be true, but they would not die for claims that they had verified to be false. See the distinction?

Holding's article does also discuss the implications for other church members, yes. However, he is largely addressing the fact that those people would be unlikely to become Christian in the first place, in the particular social atmosphere of first century Rome. Muslim suicide bombers are raised in an Islamic extremist culture from birth, so their original acceptance of Islam is explained. A similar situation applies for Jews today. The ability of 21st century Christians to face persecution also falls into this category, certainly. However, the early Christians became Christians in an environment that would not only be apathetic but in fact hostile to Christianity - after being raised on premises contrary to Christianity. Holding's argument is that there must have existed verifiable evidence at that point in time strong enough to overcome the extreme social bias.

jb48237 wrote:I have yet to see a logical argument that proves Christianity to be true, or any religion for that matter.

As August mentioned, what would qualify as a "logical argument"?