Second Coming Already Happened?

bob2010 · Post by **bob2010** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:44 am

well i can see it is quite useless trying to discuss anything with you.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:57 am

bob2010 wrote:i think you missed the point of Matt 24. to be more specific, verse 34.

Matthew 24 is not about the Second Coming. It is about Christ's "coming" in judgment of Apostate Israel. "Coming on the Clouds" is reference to judgment (See Isaiah 19:1, 20:1-4 and many others)

The Second Coming is described in Acts 1:11 and 2 Peter 3:10. Notice that when Christ returns, history will end. No "tribulation period", Antichrist, or anything else.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:01 am

puritan lad wrote:
bob2010 wrote:i think you missed the point of Matt 24. to be more specific, verse 34.
Matthew 24 is not about the Second Coming. It is about Christ's "coming" in judgment of Apostate Israel. "Coming on the Clouds" is reference to judgment (See Isaiah 19:1, 20:1-4 and many others)

The Second Coming is described in Acts 1:11 and 2 Peter 3:10. Notice that when Christ returns, history will end. No "tribulation period", Antichrist, or anything else.

In Your Opinion.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:04 am

bizzt wrote:In Your Opinion.

...supported by the scriptures. Can you support the rapture junk with scripture?

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:06 am

puritan lad wrote:
bizzt wrote:In Your Opinion.
...supported by the scriptures. Can you support the rapture junk with scripture?

Of Course I can just the same way you can support. there are certain Scriptures that I probably hold a Different thought on then you do...

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:49 am

Fair enough. Can you point me to any scripture that teaches a future tribulation or anti-christ? I'll except even one, as long as it is taken in it's proper context.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:14 pm

puritan lad wrote:Fair enough. Can you point me to any scripture that teaches a future tribulation or anti-christ? I'll except even one, as long as it is taken in it's proper context.

Deut 4:26-31 Talks about Jews coming back to the Land of Israel. still a Present and Future Event...

Or Jeremiah 30:5-7 and Later Prophets have spoke of the Same Trouble. And it is only Jacob who will go through this.

Daniel 11:36-45 coincides with Revelation 16:13-16

Matt 24:15-22
You will say this is about 70 AD BUT it tells it is the most Distressful time from the Beginning of the world till now and will not be equaled. Surely the Holocaust was beyond that!
Then The Sun will be Darkened and the Moon will not give it's Light and the Stars will Fall.

And how was those Days Shortened if in 70AD??

What do you believe of Revelations? Do you think Revelations is a Depiction of Times in the Past or in the Future?

Thanks

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:56 am

Deut 4:26-31 was a warning against the children of Israel what would happen if they served false gods. Verses 15-16 tells them to "Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure:". Of course, this happened many times in scripture.

The Old Testament prophecies concerning the "regathering" of Israel were fulfilled after the Babylonian Exile. There are no prophecies concerning the modern nation of Israel (which happens to be occupied by most European Jews anyway.)

Jeremiah 30:5-7 was fulfilled twice, after the Babylonian Exile and in 70 AD.

Daniel 11:36-45 is a difficult passage, but I hold that it speaks of Herod the Great, his murder of the infants of Israel, and his activities in the Actian War. Revelation 16:13-16 was about 70 AD, although a complete explanation will require more room than I have here. I'll post some "apocalyptic language" in my next post and see if you can draw the parallel.

Matt 24:15-22 was about 70 AD. While, from a numerical perspective, there have been far worse tribulations, from a covenantal perspective, this was the worst. The Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was not just the destuction of another city. It was God taking His covenant blessing away from Israel and giving it to His church (Matthew 21:43). This event forever separated the Jewish and Christian faiths (despite the best efforts by modern dispensationalists). The fig tree was cursed as to never bear fruit again (Matthew 21:19).

The days of Jewish persecution were shortened because of 70 AD. If not for that event, Christianity may have been wiped out by Judaism.

As far as the Book of Revelations goes, it was written (before 70 AD - more on that later) to seven first century churches about "things that must shortly take place", were "at hand", and were "about to take place". Most of Revelations has already been fulfilled.

Here's to getting the ball rolling

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:01 am

By the way, Jesus said very clearly that ALL of the events of Matthew 24 would happen withing the Apostle's generation. (Matthew 24:34). Try as one might, there is not getting around what Jesus said here.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:05 am

Here are some examples of Apocalyptic Language in the Bible:

Isaiah's Prophecy against Babylon in 730 BC (Isa. 13:1)

- The day of the Lord is near (v.6)
- Hands fall limp, man's hearts melt, terror (v.7)
- Stars of heaven and constellations will not flash forth their light, sun dark when it rises, moon not shed light (v.10)
- Heavens shake, earth tremble (v.13)

Fulfilled when Cyrus the Persian takes Babylon in 539 BC (Daniel 5)

Isaiah Prophecy against Moab in 730 BC (Isa. 51:1)

- Green grass withers away (v.6)
- Waters full of Blood (v.8)

Fulfilled when Sargon of Assyria takes Moab in 715 BC

Isaiah's Prophecy against Egypt in 730 BC (Isa. 19:1)

- Lord riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt, the idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence (v.1)
- River Dried Up (vs.5-6)

Fulfilled when Esarhaddan of Assyria takes Egypt in 671 BC

Jeremiah's Prophecy against Jerusalem in 620 BC (Jer 4:5)

- Sound of trumpet, alarm of war (v.5,19)
- He shall come up like Clouds (v.13)
- Heavens with no light (v.23)
- Mountains tremble (v.24)
- Heavens made black (v.28)
- A people is coming from the north, a great nation: Babylon (6:1,22) 14-16, 19,23-28

Fulfilled when Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon takes Jerusalem in 586 BC (2 Kings 24:10, Daniel 1:1)

Ezekiel's Prophecy against Egypt in 590 BC (Eze. 30:3-4)
- The day of the Lord is near (v.3)
- It will be a day of clouds (v.3)
- Rivers made dry (v.12)
- Day darkened (v.18)

Joel's Prophecy concerning the Day of Pentecost in 830 BC (Joel 2:28-32 + Acts 2:16-21)

- Great and awesome day of the Lord (v.31)
- Blood, fire, columns of smoke, sun into darkness, moon into blood (vs.30-31)

Filfilled at the Day of Pentecost in 30 AD (Acts 2)

Nahum against Nineveh (Capitol of Assyria) in 650 BC (Nahum 1:1)

- Clouds (v.3)
- Sea and rivers made dry (v.4)
- Mountains Quake, Hills Melt (v.5)
- Flood and Darkness (v.8)

Fulfilled when Nineveh destroyed by the Medes and Babylonians in 612 BC

This should be enough examples to show that these events were never taken literally in the Old Testament.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:27 am

puritan lad wrote:Deut 4:26-31 was a warning against the children of Israel what would happen if they served false gods. Verses 15-16 tells them to "Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure:". Of course, this happened many times in scripture.

The Old Testament prophecies concerning the "regathering" of Israel were fulfilled after the Babylonian Exile. There are no prophecies concerning the modern nation of Israel (which happens to be occupied by most European Jews anyway.)

Jeremiah 30:5-7 was fulfilled twice, after the Babylonian Exile and in 70 AD.

Daniel 11:36-45 is a difficult passage, but I hold that it speaks of Herod the Great, his murder of the infants of Israel, and his activities in the Actian War. Revelation 16:13-16 was about 70 AD, although a complete explanation will require more room than I have here. I'll post some "apocalyptic language" in my next post and see if you can draw the parallel.

Matt 24:15-22 was about 70 AD. While, from a numerical perspective, there have been far worse tribulations, from a covenantal perspective, this was the worst. The Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was not just the destuction of another city. It was God taking His covenant blessing away from Israel and giving it to His church (Matthew 21:43). This event forever separated the Jewish and Christian faiths (despite the best efforts by modern dispensationalists). The fig tree was cursed as to never bear fruit again (Matthew 21:19).

The days of Jewish persecution were shortened because of 70 AD. If not for that event, Christianity may have been wiped out by Judaism.

As far as the Book of Revelations goes, it was written (before 70 AD - more on that later) to seven first century churches about "things that must shortly take place", were "at hand", and were "about to take place". Most of Revelations has already been fulfilled.

Here's to getting the ball rolling

Clearly our thoughts on Scripture will never be the same. I have a totally Different Interpretation of Matthew 24, Revelations etc... I am not wanting to get into a Match whether you are right or I am wrong as I will not concede on my Thoughts of these Scriptures.

Thanks for Your Explainations however.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:21 am

Fair enough. For those who are willing to examine the scriptures concerning the end times, I'll roll on a little further.

Problems with the Futurist View of Revelation

1.) It makes the Book of Revelation totally useless to its intended audience, the First Century Churches of Asia Minor. Not only that, it makes the book totally incomprehensible to the church throughout history until 1909, when the Scofield reference Bible became a best selling novel. The Bible says that Revelation was meant to be understood by its original audience (Rev. 1:3; Rev. 22:7)

2.) It totally ignores more than a dozen clearly stated time frame references such as “shortly” (Rev. 1:1), “near” (Rev. 1:3), and “about to” (Rev. 1:19). Jesus clearly taught that the "great tribulation" would be a first century event (Matthew 24:21,34; Mark 13:19, 30; Luke 21:32).

3.) It freely places 2,000 year gaps in between OT prophecies such as Daniel 9:24-27, Isaiah 66:6-8, and Zechariah 12:1-14, and then seeks to justify this practice by falsely teaching that the Old Testament prophets did not foresee the church age. The prophets not only saw the church age, they looked forward to it. (Acts 2:16-21; Acts 3:24-26; Acts 15:14-18; Galatians 3:8).

4.) It teaches that the Great Commission (making disciples of all nations) given by Christ to the Church will fail in history. The Bible teaches that it will succeed. (Psalm 22:27-28; Psalm 72:11; Psalm 110:1; 1 Corinthians 15:24-26).

5.) It teaches that Christ must still perform another redemptive act for the nation of Israel. The Bible teaches that Christ has completed all redemptive acts. (John 19:30; Hebrews 9:12, 12:2).

6.) It teaches that there will be a return to “weak and beggarly elements,” such as the temple, sacrifices, Jewish exaltation, and such. The Bible teaches no such thing. (Galatians 4:9; Hebrews 9-10; 1 Peter 2:5-9; Ephesians 2:20-21; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16).

7.) It teaches that the kingdom promises refer to national Israel instead of the Church as the New Israel of God. The Bible teaches that the only true Israelite is a born again Christian. (Romans 2:28-29; Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Galatians 6:15-16; Philippians 3:3). Those who practice Judaism are of their father the Devil (John 8:44).

8.) It allows for the monstrous and absurd mixing of immortal, glorified and resurrected saints with mortal, unglorified men upon the earth for a 1000 year period of interaction.

The worst part of this whole theology is the ridiculous idea that we are going to someday return to animal sacrifices in the Jewish Temple. What does that say about the work of Christ? Not to mention the exaltation of demonically inspired Judaism as a "biblical" religion.