Evidence for God from Science

Fortigurn,

The reason most of Israel did not obey God is because they did not have the spirit of God guiding them. Those few who were obedient such as the prophets and patriarchs, were led by the spirit and were given the spirit, even if only a few received it, prior to Christ (Psalm 51:11).

Man, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit cannot receive the things of God nor understand them because they require the spirit in order to be discerned.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14, NKJV).

I want to be certain of what you are saying here. Are you saying that God's Word is incapable of enlightenment and instruction, reproof and correction, without God acting on us first with His Spirit?

A person who God has not chosen to call at this time may, for any number of reasons, be attracted to the Bible and concepts related or attributed to it, and thus choose to live by what they believe it says. If you consider this uncalled person to be enlightened, that is your judgment. I do not. Philosophers and thinkers from the beginning have shown an ability to demonstrate what appears to be spiritual knowledge or enlightenment, however, only absolute truth and therefore real enlightenment comes from above. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of truth, thus to understand the truth of Scripture one must be led by the Spirit. Without it we will not accept Godly correction and instruction because it will not make sense to our way of thinking or the theologies we have thus far accepted as truth.

I will provide one example that I suppose will not find agreement from yourself or any on this board.

Here is a truth revealed by the Spirit of God. God requires those whom He calls to repentance to cease from continuing to commit sin which the Bible defines as transgressing the law of God (1 John 3:4).

Obedience to God requires living by His every word which includes living by His law and commandments (Matt. 4:4). This is not possible without the spirit of God leading us because the carnal human mind is enmity against God and does not subject itself to the law of God neither can it without the spirit of God (Rom. 8:7). “So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God” (Rom. 8:8, NKJV).

Therefore in order to even understand the purpose and function and importance of the law of God, we require a mind that is set on the spirit. This is not possible without the spirit of God opening our minds to the truth about the law and sin and obedience and thus lead us to repentance. It is by God's goodness that He leads us to repentance by His spirit (Rom. 2:4).

Thus we are required by God to observe His whole law including the law of sacrifice as it was fulfilled and replaced by the sacrifice of His son, the Lamb of God (Heb. 9:22).

This requirement to be obedient to God is not a means to salvation. It is not a means to earn righteousness. It never was given as either of these.

The law of God is spiritual and we are called to worship Him in spirit and truth (Rom. 7:14, John 4:23-24).

This truth however cannot be understood or accepted without revelation from God through His spirit. Why? Because the carnal human mind is enmity against God, is not subject to the law of God and neither can it subject itself to it.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His (Rom. 8:7-9).

Obedience to the law pleases God but if we have not the spirit to guide us to repentance for breaking the law, then we cannot receive the indwelling of the spirit at baptism because our mind is not subject to the will of God. Therefore one who rejects the keeping of the law of God grieves the spirit if it is given, and is incapable of pleasing God because he continue to live as a sinner even if he is unaware of this fact because of the deception of false Christian teaching.

The law of truth was in his mouth, And injustice was not found on his lips. He walked with Me in peace and equity, And turned many away from iniquity (Micah 2:6, NKJV).

Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your law is truth (Psalm 119:142, NKJV)

You are near, O LORD, and all Your commandments are truth (Psalm 119:151, NKJV)

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:3-4).

I have spoken the truth. Can you see. Do you hear. Do you understand?

I asked,

Let me get this straight. You assert the reason some understand and others don't, and the reason for the extreme differences in understanding the same written word, is that, some people humble themselves, and some don't, and because people have different levels of understanding?

Your response,

Yes.

Then it is axiomatic that people who are not humble and only have a limited understanding cannot be brought to repentance. This precludes any involvement by God in leading anyone to repentance including and especially the proud and ignorant (the Scriptures provide a few examples of this to the contrary). Thus the calling of God depends not upon the will of God or His predetermination of who He calls into the first resurrection. But rather, the natural human characteristics, attributes and intelligence one may or may not possess that are themselves dependant upon genetics and environmental influences.

So I suppose one either “gets it” or they don't. It has nothing to do with God's self-revelation to those He chooses to lead to repentance now. It has nothing to do with the goodness of God bringing us to our knees but our own willingness to be humble and our own capacity for understanding the Scriptures.

This position denies the power of God and thus denies the spirit of God. You may choose to not see or identify the understanding of the Scriptures provided that at the very least infer the necessity of the spirit to lead those whom God calls, but that does not change the facts of the matter.

We cannot know the will of God and thus be conformed to the image of His son if we are not led by God's spirit in the first place. We are called by the spirit of God leading us to repentance which is the commencement of the salvation process.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified (Rom. 8:28-30, NKJV).

If the power of the written word is not the spirit of God, which is also the spirit in Christ (Rom. 8:9), who is the word of God (John 1:14), and you rightly believe the power is not mystically contained in the words themselves, then the power rests in the ability of the human mind and heart.

Numerous texts have already been provided proving this conclusion false.

R7-12

R7-12 wrote:Fortigurn,....If the power of the written word is not the spirit of God, which is also the spirit in Christ (Rom. 8:9), who is the word of God (John 1:14), and you rightly believe the power is not mystically contained in the words themselves, then the power rests in the ability of the human mind and heart.

Numerous texts have already been provided proving this conclusion false.

R7-12

Fortigurn wrote: I have certainly shown that man can understand the Bible without the Holy Spirit.

Jer. 17:5 The Lord says, “I will put a curse on people who trust in mere human beings, who depend on mere flesh and blood for their strength, and whose hearts have turned away from the Lord." NET

John 3:27 John replied, “No one can receive anything unless it has been given to him from heaven." NET

John 3:34-36, "For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for He does not give the Spirit sparingly. The Father loves the Son and has placed all things under His authority. The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him."

Jer. 17:13 "You are the one in whom Israel may find hope. All who leave You will suffer shame. Those who turn away from You will be consigned to the nether world. For they have rejected you, the Lord, the fountain of life." NET

John 14:15-17,25 “If you love me, you will obey my commandments. Then I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever — the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he resides with you and will be in you... 25 “I have spoken these things while staying with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you." NET

John 15:26-27 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father — the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father — he will testify about me, and you also will testify, because you have been with me from the beginning.” NET

John 16:7-15 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you, but if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong concerning sin and righteousness and judgment — concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.

“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come. He will glorify me, because he will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; that is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you." NET

Matthew16:16-18 “Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven! And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.” NET
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B. W. wrote:Jer. 17:5 The Lord says, “I will put a curse on people who trust in mere human beings, who depend on mere flesh and blood for their strength, and whose hearts have turned away from the Lord." NET

Putting one's trust in God's Word is not putting one's trust in 'mere flesh and blood'.

John 3:27 John replied, “No one can receive anything unless it has been given to him from heaven." NET

Like the Bible.

John 3:34-36, "For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for He does not give the Spirit sparingly. The Father loves the Son and has placed all things under His authority. The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him."

No reference to the incapacity of men to understand God's Word without the Holy Spirit.

Jer. 17:13 "You are the one in whom Israel may find hope. All who leave You will suffer shame. Those who turn away from You will be consigned to the nether world. For they have rejected you, the Lord, the fountain of life." NET

No reference to the incapacity of men to understand God's Word without the Holy Spirit.

John 14:15-17,25 “If you love me, you will obey my commandments. Then I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever — the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he resides with you and will be in you... 25 “I have spoken these things while staying with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you." NET

John 15:26-27 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father — the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father — he will testify about me, and you also will testify, because you have been with me from the beginning.” NET

John 16:7-15 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you, but if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong concerning sin and righteousness and judgment — concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.

“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come. He will glorify me, because he will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; that is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you." NET

Specific instructions of Christ restricted to the apostles.
No reference to the incapacity of men to understand God's Word without the Holy Spirit.

Matthew16:16-18 “Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven! And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.” NET

No reference to the incapacity of men to understand God's Word without the Holy Spirit.

People are still avoiding Acts 2 and 3, not to mention Acts 10 and Romans 10.

I know if only you knew how to bring the light to us poor unfortunate souls.

Fortigurn wrote: Specific instructions of Christ restricted to the apostles. No reference to the incapacity of men to understand God's Word without the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (Amplified Bible) "Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action),So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Bible Quote wrote:Matthew16:16-18 “Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven! And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.” NET

Fortigurn wrote:No reference to the incapacity of men to understand God's Word without the Holy Spirit. People are still avoiding Acts 2 and 3, not to mention Acts 10 and Romans 10.

2 Peter 1:20-21 (Amplified Bible)
"20-[Yet] first [you must] understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is [a matter] of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening, solving).
21-For no prophecy ever originated because some man willed it [to do so--it never came by human impulse], but men spoke from God who were borne along (moved and impelled) by the Holy Spirit."

Acts:

Acts 3:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance." ESV

Acts3:38-39 "And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." ESV

Acts10:44, "While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word." ESV


Romans

Romans 10:17, "So people believe because they hear. They hear because people tell them about Christ." WE-NT

John 8:47, "Anyone whose Father is God listens gladly to the words of God. Since you don't, it proves you aren't God's children."NLT

John 15:26,"But I will send you the Counselor--the Spirit of truth. He will come to you from the Father and will tell you all about me." NLT

John 16:8-15 "The Spirit will come and show the people of this world the truth about sin and God's justice and the judgment. The Spirit will show them that they are wrong about sin, because they didn't have faith in me. They are wrong about God's justice, because I am going to the Father, and you won't see me again. And they are wrong about the judgment, because God has already judged the ruler of this world.

"I have much more to say to you, but right now it would be more than you could understand. The Spirit shows what is true and will come and guide you into the full truth. The Spirit doesn't speak on his own. He will tell you only what he has heard from me, and he will let you know what is going to happen. The Spirit will bring glory to me by taking my message and telling it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine. That is why I have said that the Spirit takes my message and tells it to you."CEV

John 6:63-64 "The Spirit is the one who gives life! Human strength can do nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are from that life-giving Spirit. But some of you refuse to have faith in me." Jesus said this, because from the beginning he knew who would have faith in him. He also knew which one would betray him." CEV
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1 Corinthians

1:26 Think about the circumstances of your call,26 brothers and sisters.27 Not many were wise by human standards,28 not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position.29 1:27 But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks weak to shame the strong. 1:28 God chose30 what is low and despised in the world, what is regarded as nothing, to set aside what is regarded as something, 1:29 so that no one can boast in his presence. 1:30 He is the reason you have a relationship with Christ Jesus,31 who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 1:31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”32


3:5 What is Apollos, really? Or what is Paul? Servants through whom you came to believe, and each of us in the ministry the Lord gave us.7 3:6 I planted,8 Apollos watered, but God caused it to grow. 3:7 So neither the one who plants counts for anything,9 nor the one who waters, but God who causes the growth.


2 Peter
1:20 Above all, you do well if you recognize66 this:67 No prophecy of scripture ever comes about by the prophet's own imagination,68 1:21 for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men69 carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Hello?

Fortigurn ???

Are you still planning on responding to my last post?

R7-12

R7-12 wrote:Hello?

Fortigurn ???

Are you still planning on responding to my last post?

R7-12

Yes I am. Thanks for reminding me, I had lost track of this discussion.

R7-12 wrote:Fortigurn,

The reason most of Israel did not obey God is because they did not have the spirit of God guiding them.

Scripture please. I find in the Bible that God says that they didn't obey Him because they were stubbon and hard of heart.

Those few who were obedient such as the prophets and patriarchs, were led by the spirit and were given the spirit, even if only a few received it, prior to Christ (Psalm 51:11).

I agree that only a very few were given the Spirit - so few in fact that they number probably less than 20 (there's no evidence that any of the patriarchs were given the Spirit). And yet thousands of Israelites were faithful to God.

Man, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit cannot receive the things of God nor understand them because they require the spirit in order to be discerned.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14, NKJV).

This does not say that men need the guidance of the Holy Spirit in order to understand the Bible. It doesn't even mention the Holy Spirit.

A person who God has not chosen to call at this time may, for any number of reasons, be attracted to the Bible and concepts related or attributed to it, and thus choose to live by what they believe it says. If you consider this uncalled person to be enlightened, that is your judgment. I do not. Philosophers and thinkers from the beginning have shown an ability to demonstrate what appears to be spiritual knowledge or enlightenment, however, only absolute truth and therefore real enlightenment comes from above. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of truth, thus to understand the truth of Scripture one must be led by the Spirit. Without it we will not accept Godly correction and instruction because it will not make sense to our way of thinking or the theologies we have thus far accepted as truth.

I'm still after Scripture, rather than this kind of philosophy.

I will provide one example that I suppose will not find agreement from yourself or any on this board.

Here is a truth revealed by the Spirit of God. God requires those whom He calls to repentance to cease from continuing to commit sin which the Bible defines as transgressing the law of God (1 John 3:4).

Obedience to God requires living by His every word which includes living by His law and commandments (Matt. 4:4). This is not possible without the spirit of God leading us because the carnal human mind is enmity against God and does not subject itself to the law of God neither can it without the spirit of God (Rom. 8:7). “So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God” (Rom. 8:8, NKJV).

Therefore in order to even understand the purpose and function and importance of the law of God, we require a mind that is set on the spirit. This is not possible without the spirit of God opening our minds to the truth about the law and sin and obedience and thus lead us to repentance. It is by God's goodness that He leads us to repentance by His spirit (Rom. 2:4).

Thus we are required by God to observe His whole law including the law of sacrifice as it was fulfilled and replaced by the sacrifice of His son, the Lamb of God (Heb. 9:22).

This requirement to be obedient to God is not a means to salvation. It is not a means to earn righteousness. It never was given as either of these.

Firstly, the fact that the carnal mind rebels against the commandments of God does not prove that we need the Holy Spirit in order to understand the Bible, or obey God's commandments (nothing in Romans which you quoted says any such thing).

Secondly, the struggle between the carnal mind and the mind of the spirit continues even after one is a Christian (see Romans 7).

Thirdly, nothing in Romans 8 says that we must be empowered by the Holy Spirit in order to understand the Bible and/or obey God's commandments. On the contrary, it says that what is necessary is the spiritual mind, a mind which is in conformity with the Divine mind (Romans 8:5-11).

Fourthly, Romans 2:4 says absolutely nothing about the Holy Spirit (the words don't even appear there).

The law of God is spiritual and we are called to worship Him in spirit and truth (Rom. 7:14, John 4:23-24).

This truth however cannot be understood or accepted without revelation from God through His spirit. Why? Because the carnal human mind is enmity against God, is not subject to the law of God and neither can it subject itself to it.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His (Rom. 8:7-9).

Obedience to the law pleases God but if we have not the spirit to guide us to repentance for breaking the law, then we cannot receive the indwelling of the spirit at baptism because our mind is not subject to the will of God. Therefore one who rejects the keeping of the law of God grieves the spirit if it is given, and is incapable of pleasing God because he continue to live as a sinner even if he is unaware of this fact because of the deception of false Christian teaching.

The law of truth was in his mouth, And injustice was not found on his lips. He walked with Me in peace and equity, And turned many away from iniquity (Micah 2:6, NKJV).

Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your law is truth (Psalm 119:142, NKJV)

You are near, O LORD, and all Your commandments are truth (Psalm 119:151, NKJV)

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:3-4).

I have spoken the truth. Can you see. Do you hear. Do you understand?

I understand that nothing you have quoted here says that we cannot understand the Divine revelation in Scripture without the Holy Spirit. Where are all the passages which say this?

Then it is axiomatic that people who are not humble and only have a limited understanding cannot be brought to repentance.

That is indeed what the Bible says:

Proverbs 3:
34 Although he is scornful to arrogant scoffers, yet he shows favor to the humble.

James 4:
6 But he gives greater grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble.”

1 Peter 5:
5 In the same way, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.

Romans 10:
11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

12 For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him.
13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

10:14 How are they to call on one they have not believed in? And how are they to believe in one they have not heard of? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them?

15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How timely is the arrival of those who proclaim the good news.”

16 But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

17 Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ.

In Romans 10:10-15, we find that belief must precede confession (10-13), knowledge must precede belief (14), hearing is the means by which knowledge is gained (14), that teaching is the means by which people hear (14), and that the sending of teachers is the means by which people are taught (15).

What they are taught, is the word of Christ (17). Nowhere is the necessity of the Holy Spirit mentioned at all.

This precludes any involvement by God in leading anyone to repentance including and especially the proud and ignorant (the Scriptures provide a few examples of this to the contrary). Thus the calling of God depends not upon the will of God or His predetermination of who He calls into the first resurrection. But rather, the natural human characteristics, attributes and intelligence one may or may not possess that are themselves dependant upon genetics and environmental influences.

So I suppose one either “gets it” or they don't. It has nothing to do with God's self-revelation to those He chooses to lead to repentance now. It has nothing to do with the goodness of God bringing us to our knees but our own willingness to be humble and our own capacity for understanding the Scriptures.

How do you reach this conclusion? Haven't you read in the Scriptures the numerous examples of God humbling men so that they repent? How about the humbling of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at various times in their lives? The humbling of Moses? The humbling of Samson, of David, of Naaman, of Nebuchadnezzar, of Jonah, and others?

We cannot know the will of God and thus be conformed to the image of His son if we are not led by God's spirit in the first place. We are called by the spirit of God leading us to repentance which is the commencement of the salvation process.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified (Rom. 8:28-30, NKJV).

None of this says that being led by God's spirit means what you claim. The Word of God itself is 'God breathed', and is described as 'the spirit of God'. The conversion process is described systematically in Scripture, and in those places the direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the heart is notable by its absence.

If the power of the written word is not the spirit of God, which is also the spirit in Christ (Rom. 8:9), who is the word of God (John 1:14), and you rightly believe the power is not mystically contained in the words themselves, then the power rests in the ability of the human mind and heart.

Numerous texts have already been provided proving this conclusion false.

The power rests in the effect of the Word of God on the human heart, which is the point you're missing. I have supplied a number of passages which demonstrate this.

I have demonstrated that:

• Romans 10 describes the process of conversion in systematic terms which omit any reference to the Holy Spirit, but predicate conversion and salvation on hearing the gospel
• 1 Peter 1:22-25 describes the process of conversion in systematic terms which omit any reference to the Holy Spirit, but predicate conversion and salvation on hearing the gospel, and states explicitly that the process of rebirth takes place as a result of the action of the Word of God on the human heart
• The conversion experiences contained in the New Testament (such as Acts 2, 3, 8, 9-10, 17), prove that this is indeed the process of conversion, as experienced and recorded by the apostles themselves (note the complete absence of any reference to the Holy Spirit as the agent of conversion in any of these passages)

The key issue here is that you are presenting an inferred argument which you induce from a collection of passages, but you do not address the fact that the apostles themselves describe the conversion process in systematic terms, and record conversions which are explicitly described as being the result of this process.

That is the difference between your argument and mine. You infer yours from your own study of the Bible, I simply present what the apostles taught and experienced.

Fortigurn,

This precludes any involvement by God in leading anyone to repentance including and especially the proud and ignorant (the Scriptures provide a few examples of this to the contrary). Thus the calling of God depends not upon the will of God or His predetermination of who He calls into the first resurrection. But rather, the natural human characteristics, attributes and intelligence one may or may not possess that are themselves dependant upon genetics and environmental influences.

So I suppose one either “gets it” or they don't. It has nothing to do with God's self-revelation to those He chooses to lead to repentance now. It has nothing to do with the goodness of God bringing us to our knees but our own willingness to be humble and our own capacity for understanding the Scriptures.

How do you reach this conclusion? Haven't you read in the Scriptures the numerous examples of God humbling men so that they repent? How about the humbling of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at various times in their lives? The humbling of Moses? The humbling of Samson, of David, of Naaman, of Nebuchadnezzar, of Jonah, and others?

Precisely the point of my rhetorical comments. And you say the spirit of God is not required.

How does a carnal man truly know that it is God who is humbling them by His divine intervention unless their minds are opened by the spirit of God to discern, recognize, and understand that it is the work of Almighty God?

You quoted me,

If the power of the written word is not the spirit of God, which is also the spirit in Christ (Rom. 8:9), who is the word of God (John 1:14), and you rightly believe the power is not mystically contained in the words themselves, then the power rests in the ability of the human mind and heart.

Numerous texts have already been provided proving this conclusion false.

Your response,

The power rests in the effect of the Word of God on the human heart, which is the point you're missing. I have supplied a number of passages which demonstrate this.

You're assumption that I am missing your point that the human heart is capable of being affected by nothing else but the reading of words, is false. The human heart/mind is incapable of understanding the ways and thoughts of God and incapable of placing itself in subjection to God without His spirit as per Isaiah 55:8-9 and Rom. 7:8-9 and many other texts previously cited on this thread.

The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jer. 17:9).

Spiritual discernment is not possible by the carnal man without the spirit.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14, NKJV).

The word of God is Spirit and it is life,

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life (John 6:62).

But there are those who do not believe because it is not granted to them by the Father. How does He control who understands and who does not? By revealing it to whom He chooses through His Spirit.

“Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65).

I know you will respond with, "but it doesn't actually say..."
Wisdom, faith, knowledge, discernment, and all gifts come by the spirit (1 Cor. 12:8-10).

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills (1 Cor. 12:11).

Therefore we can conclude that without God providing wisdom and knowledge of His will through the spirit as He wills, we cannot receive it.

That is the difference between your argument and mine. You infer yours from your own study of the Bible, I simply present what the apostles taught and experienced.

Then it stands to reason that one who bases his argument merely on written words, lacking the spiritual discernment to see, hear, and understand what they mean, would view one who is led by the spirit to simply be making inferential conclusions.

Would you also conclude that smoking is not contrary to the Law/Word of God on the bases that it is not directly mentioned in plain written words?

…as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:15b-16).

Are there not many who are considered well taught and perceived as stable people, and yet they still twist the apostle Paul's writings and the rest of Scriptures to their own destruction? Certainly. Why is this? The spirit of God is absent.

You may disagree, and that's your prerogative, but I do not wish to convince you or anyone of something that is not sought after.

If the spirit of God is necessary to lead someone to understand what God requires for repentance, conversion, and salvation in His word, and one who is not led by the spirit disagrees with this, who will answer him? Solomon? ...Perhaps.

I have answered more than twice on this issue. That is all.

May our heavenly Father bless you in His truth as we all require it for life.
R7-12