Evidence for God from Science

dad wrote:

Mastriani wrote: If the universe is now, and has been, and it is agreed that it came from some point in time, how could there not be a "before"?

If time is also a property of the universe, it must have existed before the universe? Or is this another philosophical conundrum of the watcher being absent, so it couldn't have existed?
...

Time as we know it is not the only time. Time in this natural universe is based on what we know, like light speed, space, etc. Time as we know it will forever disappear as the new heavens are revealed. Nevertheless, though it will be not a limoting factor then, as it now is, time will likely exist. God made the world, and we know there was at least one witness to that, as we see the lady in Proverbs 8 talk about that day! Therefore She existed before the creation of the universe, and knew what a day was! Days did not start when this universe came to be.
The light in a merged universe is also spiritual, so is not limited by our physical only universe speeds as the light here is. This is why Adam, in that merged past world, saw the light that then was from the far stars almost right away.
Time is relative. Our time we know is relative to the physical only universe. Our light is relative. It is relative to the physical universe it exists in, with it's speeds and properties. Everything is relative, but, where Einstein fell short is that everything is relative to the spiritual and physical, not just to the PO universe! He only had a part of the big picture.

Mastriani wrote:Yes, I scoff at scientists, and anyone else, who dares to presume to know the definition of such.

Zenith wrote:

Mastriani wrote:Yes, I scoff at scientists, and anyone else, who dares to presume to know the definition of such.

time is the dimension in which change occurs. thats all it is. time is not a real, physical thing, but rather an idea describing a real process. change is always occuring, without change you cannot even think, or really exist. time must have existed before the universe, or the universe could not exist. time neccessitates change, and change defines time.

Zenith wrote:

Mastriani wrote:Yes, I scoff at scientists, and anyone else, who dares to presume to know the definition of such.

time is the dimension in which change occurs. thats all it is. time is not a real, physical thing, but rather an idea describing a real process. change is always occuring, without change you cannot even think, or really exist. time must have existed before the universe, or the universe could not exist. time neccessitates change, and change defines time.

Mastriani wrote:

Zenith wrote:

Mastriani wrote:Yes, I scoff at scientists, and anyone else, who dares to presume to know the definition of such.

time is the dimension in which change occurs. thats all it is. time is not a real, physical thing, but rather an idea describing a real process. change is always occuring, without change you cannot even think, or really exist. time must have existed before the universe, or the universe could not exist. time neccessitates change, and change defines time.

No offense Zenith, but that definition is not workable in the greater context.

Why:
1. Change is an observable activity, time is not.

2. I was speaking of time with respect to the Eternal Being, and using human terms to define that entities "time" in human context and then purporting it to be accurate. It can't be done, saying it can transcends even fallacy. Change does not occur to that which is without the confines of time, ie. Eternal.

3. I have seen the use of "dimension and time" as mutually compatible terms to explain each other, which when looked at becomes a juxtapositioning of non-sense. Then most often the word "planar" is added to the time/dimension contention and I leave it simply confounded.

I have yet to ascertain the methodology for dividing nothing into segments, adding dimension to it, then again dissecting it by planes, then saying all this is relative to when it was not, and that's how we know it is.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:

Zenith wrote:

Mastriani wrote:Yes, I scoff at scientists, and anyone else, who dares to presume to know the definition of such.

time is the dimension in which change occurs. thats all it is. time is not a real, physical thing, but rather an idea describing a real process. change is always occuring, without change you cannot even think, or really exist. time must have existed before the universe, or the universe could not exist. time neccessitates change, and change defines time.

Time cannot be observed, it is a measurement of change. Entropy determines the direction of this change.

Imagine our three dimentional space as a toy boat on a river, the waves pushing against the boat push it down a cold stream. As the boat goes downstream the air in the boat gets a little colder.

You may ask how can a spacial dimention be unidirectional.
Imagine being caught in the gravitational pull of a black hole. There is no return, only by acceleration can you delay the inevitable end. With the tremendous acceleration created by the gravity of a black hole a trapped individual will experience much less "time" compared to those on the outside.

Not only that but they will be unable to see what is behind them or ahead of them due to the gravity warping space-time.

Also as they travel towards the black hole this traveling may be what one experiences as time, as time is only a measurement of change. So our spacial dimention is converted to a time dimention!

As our regular time comes close to stopping the velocity of light remaining constant comes to a stand still in this perspective. Perhaps it takes on the properties of matter.

In any case, as usual you are trying to bring faults into other theories without even trying to show what evidence supports your claims.

No matter what happens there is heat created by movement, and the heat generated is directly proportional to its velocity and grows exponentially.

Zenith wrote: i can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

in any case, i agree with pretty much everything you just said. the boat analogy is a bit hard to visualize, i usually use the expanding sphere analogy.

Mastriani wrote:..
This answers no questions. If time is relative, relative to what?

Time in the physical only universe is relative to the physical only universe. That is why one day, time will be no more, in the sense we know it. Nevertheless a form of time also exists in the spiritual universe, and will also in the merged universe. That sort of time will not be measured with things like our PO light speed! So, PO time is relative to itself. But it is not "time", it is just our temporary time releative to the physical universe. There was time before the world was made, and there will be time after the PO heavens pass away.

How do measure/quantify it? Do we transcend to dimensional time as a prospective property of universal existence? How do we define that?

We measure PO time with PO things like PO light, and it's speed, and the space of our physical universe. That is the only time you can measure now.

I am well aware of the presence of Sophia (French translation of the Hebrew word for wisdom), but this has been dropped by both the Judeaic and Christian communities as "mysticism".

No, it is alive and well. Wisdom is a spirit, whether the Sprit, or not is another debate. Nevertheless, it is refered to as a female spirit, and she tells us what it was like watching the creation of the world as a seperate entity, and bystander, or observer. Not really much one can argue against there.

It is one of the most essentially misunderstood deletions of the Torah, but I digress, that is for another thread.

Naturally spiritual things are shynned and misunderstood by some, so what?

I have asked this question before, but apparently no one has wanted to answer the question: How does one condescend to understanding the measure of a "day" to an eternal being such as the Creator?

He made the universe in 6 of them. Morning and evenings, in case some were easily confused, it states. He is the One that nade the days, why would I think that He is weirded out by them?
Of course, when we enter eternity, and time as we know it is no more, and no more death exists, a thousand years will not be all that long. Almost like a day, in some sense, compared to the forever we still have to live! Just as God looks at a thousand years somewhat the same. Not that each day was not important, and real, but, hey, He was there in Eden, 6000 years ago. Kind of like if we think of some event long ago, it doesn't seem that far away and long ago. A 70 year old man may think of the year he got married, say, 50 years ago. Almost seems like yesterday, in some ways. That is all the verse in the bible elucidates, in explaining the difference in time perception between our physical world, and God's spiritual one. Don't start thinking a day isn't really a day.

There is little we can define with certainty in our observable universe, how arrogant to presume to know the nature of time in reference to The One.

Well, not really, as I just explained.

Yes, I scoff at scientists, and anyone else, who dares to presume to know the definition of such.

3. this is only because you don't understand it, which you have said many times. because you don't understand it doesn't mean its not true. dimension is only a direction of travel. in our universe, we have four observable directions of travel; vertical, horizontal, straight, and time. time is the dimension which gauges change. just like the other dimensions, they are not real things, but rather descriptions or measurements of real things.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:..
Time cannot be observed, it is a measurement of change. Entropy determines the direction of this change.

Only in the physical only universe of the present! In the merged heavens coming, you can kiss entropy goodbye!

You may ask how can a spacial dimention be unidirectional.
Imagine being caught in the gravitational pull of a black hole. There is no return, only by acceleration can you delay the inevitable end. With the tremendous acceleration created by the gravity of a black hole a trapped individual will experience much less "time" compared to those on the outside.

Lets face it, we don't know anyone who was trapped in a black hole. What happens after that is just theory, and guesswork based on assumptions. Just like guessing there may be other 'event horizons' beyond our known universe out there somewhere. There aren't. These things are just stabs in the dark at guessing what is beyond the limits of our physical universe. No one is going to get sucked into a black hole and disappear, and have real time warped at all, relax. If one passes from the physical universe we don't disappear, we exist in the more real spiritual universe.

Not only that but they will be unable to see what is behind them or ahead of them due to the gravity warping space-time.

No, you assume that all there is is what men now know about, the physical only universe. Those mind melting, frightening little never never land scenarios are just extreme imaginations of those who believe there is only the PO! Kidergarden, far as knowledge goes, and one reason man's wisdom is 'foolishness' to God! It really is.

Also as they travel towards the black hole this traveling may be what one experiences as time, as time is only a measurement of change. So our spacial dimention is converted to a time dimention!

No, we are converted from the physical universe, time will still be fine, thank you very much. Like switching our watches in a time zone, we would pass into the true time zone.

As our regular time comes close to stopping the velocity of light remaining constant comes to a stand still in this perspective. Perhaps it takes on the properties of matter.

Mastriani wrote:Again, no offense Zenith, but apparently I am not the only one who doesn't understand.

3. this is only because you don't understand it, which you have said many times. because you don't understand it doesn't mean its not true. dimension is only a direction of travel. in our universe, we have four observable directions of travel; vertical, horizontal, straight, and time. time is the dimension which gauges change. just like the other dimensions, they are not real things, but rather descriptions or measurements of real things.

That's not what I have read. Current theory defines that there must be more planar divisions of universal dimension, the exact amount, is the greatest contention. Most of this debate has been derived by study of black hole horizons, and dimensions now range from 6 to 12.

Again, it leaves one in a place of only being to able to say, I do not know.

He made the universe in 6 of them. Morning and evenings, in case some were easily confused, it states. He is the One that nade the days, why would I think that He is weirded out by them?
Of course, when we enter eternity, and time as we know it is no more, and no more death exists, a thousand years will not be all that long. Almost like a day, in some sense, compared to the forever we still have to live! Just as God looks at a thousand years somewhat the same. Not that each day was not important, and real, but, hey, He was there in Eden, 6000 years ago. Kind of like if we think of some event long ago, it doesn't seem that far away and long ago. A 70 year old man may think of the year he got married, say, 50 years ago. Almost seems like yesterday, in some ways. That is all the verse in the bible elucidates, in explaining the difference in time perception between our physical world, and God's spiritual one. Don't start thinking a day isn't really a day.

Mastriani wrote:dad said:

He made the universe in 6 of them. Morning and evenings, in case some were easily confused, it states. He is the One that nade the days, why would I think that He is weirded out by them?
Of course, when we enter eternity, and time as we know it is no more, and no more death exists, a thousand years will not be all that long. Almost like a day, in some sense, compared to the forever we still have to live! Just as God looks at a thousand years somewhat the same. Not that each day was not important, and real, but, hey, He was there in Eden, 6000 years ago. Kind of like if we think of some event long ago, it doesn't seem that far away and long ago. A 70 year old man may think of the year he got married, say, 50 years ago. Almost seems like yesterday, in some ways. That is all the verse in the bible elucidates, in explaining the difference in time perception between our physical world, and God's spiritual one. Don't start thinking a day isn't really a day.

That is exactly the arrogance I was speaking of, you don't know either.
"A day" is the human constructed account of one revolution of the earth, around it's axis, in the field of view of a hydrogen star, which equates to 24 segements, consisting of 60 segement, consisting of 60 segments, consisting of 100 segments per 60, ad infinitum. Period.

To a purely eternal being, this measurement is not applicable, theoretical or actual, by any definition, least of all ... the deluded, arrogant preconceived definition of a human being. Being eternal and without end means outside of time, having no need of time, not recognizing time.

Mastriani wrote: That is exactly the arrogance I was speaking of, you don't know either.
"A day" is the human constructed account of one revolution of the earth, around it's axis, in the field of view of a hydrogen star, which equates to 24 segements, consisting of 60 segement, consisting of 60 segments, consisting of 100 segments per 60, ad infinitum. Period.

To a purely eternal being, this measurement is not applicable, theoretical or actual, by any definition, least of all ... the deluded, arrogant preconceived definition of a human being.

Being eternal and without end means outside of time, having no need of time, not recognizing time.