Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:06 pm
1 Cor. 2:14:
Notice that it says the natural man does not (not CANNOT) accept the things of God. Why? Because they are foolishness to him. And why are they foolishness? Because they are spiritually understood . . . they must be grasped by revelation. This revelation comes through the Holy Spirit. Thus, it says the natural man CANNOT (better, "is not able") understand the things of God.
This is very different from saying that the natural man is incapable of accepting them. Paul states very clearly that he does nt accept because he cannot understand.
Yet further, if you wish to insist that a person must have the Spirit before they can understand and thus be saved, you must yet further insist that a person must be spiritually mature before they can understand and thus be saved (see verse six).
As to your paragraph on election, show me one verse that says we are chosen to be in Christ. I see a whole lot of verses that says we were chosen in Him. But, I see nothing to verify what you are saying. See my discussion on the matter in my original argument, found on the first page of the thread.
As for Ephesians 2:8-9, faith is not the gift. It is a grammatical impossibility. "This" in this verse refers to salvation and not to grace or faith. Salvation is given as a free gift. How is it given? On the basis of Grace, through the channel of our faith.
Now, against all this you have the clear Scriptural teachings and exhortations for men to choose God. If the only way you can believe is if God has chosen for you to believe . . . in fact, He has regenerated you so that you CAN believe (a doctrine I find nowhere in Scripture), then the exhortations are pointless for this reason: the elect will choose to believe anyway, and the non-elect are incapable of belief. I recently heard the five points of Calvinism put this way as they relate to the non-elect:
T - You must but you can't be born again.
U - You are damned for all of eternity because you were damned from all eternity.
L - Christ did not die for you.
I - No grace to resist.
P - You cannot persevere in faith because you cannot begin in faith.
Take a look at my initial argument. I lay out in a full way my primary argument against Calvinism. I'd appreciate comments on that, especially. But, again, the primary problem with Calvinism is that it teaches salvation by works. You reject the "faith only" method of salvation. For you, the elected person will believe and persevere until death. As such, they are saved. If then, I fail to persevere, it means that I was never saved. This is in clear contradiction to the words of Christ Himself, "He who believes in me has eternal life." (Jn 6:47)
Also, if you have time, I would like your comments on John 3:16 from a Calvinists perspective.
Notice that it says the natural man does not (not CANNOT) accept the things of God. Why? Because they are foolishness to him. And why are they foolishness? Because they are spiritually understood . . . they must be grasped by revelation. This revelation comes through the Holy Spirit. Thus, it says the natural man CANNOT (better, "is not able") understand the things of God.
This is very different from saying that the natural man is incapable of accepting them. Paul states very clearly that he does nt accept because he cannot understand.
Yet further, if you wish to insist that a person must have the Spirit before they can understand and thus be saved, you must yet further insist that a person must be spiritually mature before they can understand and thus be saved (see verse six).
As to your paragraph on election, show me one verse that says we are chosen to be in Christ. I see a whole lot of verses that says we were chosen in Him. But, I see nothing to verify what you are saying. See my discussion on the matter in my original argument, found on the first page of the thread.
As for Ephesians 2:8-9, faith is not the gift. It is a grammatical impossibility. "This" in this verse refers to salvation and not to grace or faith. Salvation is given as a free gift. How is it given? On the basis of Grace, through the channel of our faith.
Now, against all this you have the clear Scriptural teachings and exhortations for men to choose God. If the only way you can believe is if God has chosen for you to believe . . . in fact, He has regenerated you so that you CAN believe (a doctrine I find nowhere in Scripture), then the exhortations are pointless for this reason: the elect will choose to believe anyway, and the non-elect are incapable of belief. I recently heard the five points of Calvinism put this way as they relate to the non-elect:
T - You must but you can't be born again.
U - You are damned for all of eternity because you were damned from all eternity.
L - Christ did not die for you.
I - No grace to resist.
P - You cannot persevere in faith because you cannot begin in faith.
Take a look at my initial argument. I lay out in a full way my primary argument against Calvinism. I'd appreciate comments on that, especially. But, again, the primary problem with Calvinism is that it teaches salvation by works. You reject the "faith only" method of salvation. For you, the elected person will believe and persevere until death. As such, they are saved. If then, I fail to persevere, it means that I was never saved. This is in clear contradiction to the words of Christ Himself, "He who believes in me has eternal life." (Jn 6:47)
Also, if you have time, I would like your comments on John 3:16 from a Calvinists perspective.