Evidence for God from Science

OK. Let's breathe a little. We are getting nowhere.

I'd respectfully disagree . . . our positions are each becoming incredibly clear, I think. With regard to God's relationship the the sin of man, you've clearly stated that God is sovereign and that "sovereignty has benefits." At this point, I'm looking to clarify your thinking in some areas that I see as contradictory.

With regard to Eph. 2:8, it is clear that you hold to a position that is primarily challenged on grammatical grounds, whereas the position I hold is primarly challenged on syntatical grounds. So, again, I see us as getting plenty accomplished

False: God cannot sin, for in Him there is no darkness. But that doesn't answer the question. I agree that Absalom's sin was his own, and that he "freely" committed the act (No one put a gun to his head and forced him to). You agree that "God gave David's wives to Absalom". OK? Why? After all, didn't God say that He would raise up evil in David's own house? Did God raise up that evil? What was that evil?

Now, time out . . . let's look at what you yourself said:

Puritan Lad wrote:

I wrote: 1) The person who does a sin is a sinner.
2) God did Absalom's sin "openly before all Israel."
3) Therefore, God is a sinner.

The problem with your logic is #3. . . . Sovereignty has it's benefits.

So, what do you mean by "sovereignty has its benefits," and how does that show the fault in my logic?

Second, you say that Absalom "freely" commited the act, and yet you also argue that God moved Absalom's will so that he would commit the act. Question: had God not moved Absalom's will, then would Absalom have commited his sin?

As for your questions, yes, God gave David's wives to Absalom. I say it again: that is not a sin. How did God do it? He took Absalom's sin (not a sin that He caused Absalom to commit) and used it to punish David. Thus, God is in the right, and Absalom is in the wrong. Absalom freely chose (not "freely" chose) his course of action.

When God pronounced this curse on David, was Absalom's incest inevitable? If so, why?

No. It was inevitable in the sense that God would take David's wives form him. It was inevitable in the sense that God was fully aware of what Absalom would do, and therefore He knew how He would use those actions. But, Absalom was perfectly capable of not commiting the sins he did. He knew right from wrong, and his conscience (is that not from God, PL?)--as well as the Law--confirmed those actions to be evil. He proceeded anyway.

Does God send evil Spirits? Lying Spirits? Strong Delusions?

Yes. He sends them on those people that have already disobeyed Him.

God clearly works sovereignly in the sinful acts of wicked men. He decrees them, and He works to bring them to pass. God has no “Plan B”.

I have never argued that He does have a plan B or that God does not work sovereignly in the sinful acts of men. Question: Do you believe that God is temporal or atemporal?

Regarding the proper use of pronouns, there are huge difference between Eph. 2:8 and your examples. ie.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25-26, NIV)

(This) clearly refers to Jesus entire statement. While this is acceptable in this case, a more direct, correct question would read, "Do you believe this statement?" In this case, the pronoun has a clear antecedent.

In Ephesians 2:8, I hold that, despite the gender difference, the pronoun "that" has a clear antecedent as well, "faith". In your view, there is no clear antecedent, which would be bad grammar at best, and a totally confused statement at worst

Allow me to quote you again:

You wrote:It is bad Grammar, in any language, to have a pronoun without a clear antecedent.

Are you going to disagree with yourself? I've provided some eight or so examples in which a demonstrative pronoun can refer back to a concept, phrase, clause, etc. That is a grammatical fact. Do you agree with this or not?

In Eph. 2:8, there are two options: the pronoun either refers back to a specific word or back to a concept. If the former, it can refer either to "grace" or "faith." If the latter, it must refer to "salvation-by-grace-through-faith." Again, look at the statement:

• You are saved by grace through faith, and this is not of yourselves . . .

You hold that it refers to the word despite the gender differences. In that case, show me examples in Scripture where a pronoun refers back to a word of the incorrect gender (excluding the compound antecedents as discussed by Wallace). Second, explain to me why it is a grammatical, syntatical, or contextual impossibility for the touto to refer to the salvation-by-grace-through-faith concept.

While you are doing this, I will ask you to provide references. I've provided Wallace, a Calvinist writer of the standard Greek grammar today. I've offered Mounce and Robertson. I have provided Calvin. If you disagree, I expect you to show me where, why, and provide a counter source, as I did with your Lynchburg reference.

And you did not deal at all with Phil. 1:26. I agree that Paul mention belief only in passing, but he still mentioned it, and said that it was granted to us on behalf of Christ. Did Paul make a mistake?

While we are at it, I'll introduce Isaiah 43:10, where God chose Israel, so that they may believe (not because they did believe). BTW, How is your Aramaic? This one is pretty clear as well.

“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” (Isaiah 43:10)

In any case, I hold faith to be a gift from God. If you disagree, you still need to explain where it comes from. You say that it is an attribute of man. So please answer the question.

Why do some believe and some do not, since "All men have the ability to believe/trust"? What makes the difference?

Ok, so we have Acts 3:18, Phil 1:26, and now Is. 43:10. Is there ANYTHING else you want to add? I'm giving you the chance now, because if you try to bring up other proof texts, I'm going to point back here as to why you can't. Put another way: on what verses are you now basing your position, PL?

When you have adequately dealt with these issues, than I'll retract my statement that faith is a gift from God.

We'll see . . .

God bless

edit: Canuckster, thanks for the reminder - it's always good to have the voice of civility/reason at the appropriate places, haha

puritan lad wrote: B.W.

God CANNOT change His Mind, and none of the verses you showed above support this. Even an Arminian would have to agree to this if he wants to promote his “foreknowledge” stuff. Afterall, if God “foreknew” He would change His mind, He never really changed it.

B.W.:God can change His mind????

puritan lad wrote: Sola Scriptura:
“Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world,” (Acts 15:18).

Yes — it is true God is all knowing and predestination is contingent upon this — thanks for pointing this out!

Quote wrote: “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, sing, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure,” (Isaiah 46:10).

Yes, Thank God had a plan mapped out before the beginning of the world — if not we would have been wiped out.

Quote wrote: “As I have purposed, so shall it stand,” (Isaiah 14:24).

“The counsel of the LORD stands for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations,” (Psalms 33:11).

“I am the LORD, I change not,” (Malachi 3:6).

“For the LORD of hosts has purposed, And who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, And who will turn it back?” (Isaiah 14:27).

His ways are not our ways PL — God purposed this too: Jeremiah 18 8, “If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." Wow! God is Good and will keep his word, promises, and do them.

Quote wrote: “But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does.” (Job 23:13).

Yep, what ever God's soul desires — that he does. He can change his mind as he so desires — again — thank you for pointing this fact out again — sola scripture

Quote wrote: “Forever, O LORD, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.” (Psalm 119:89).

I am glad God keeps his word — he uphold the heavens by the word of his power — if God did not keep his word the universe would not be. God changes not his promise.

Quote wrote: “God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?” (Numbers 23:19)

God is “"the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17).

Yep — God keeps his word, uphold his promises, and does what he says —

Ezekiel 18:23-27, “Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. KJV

John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

I am sure glad He spoke these things -John 5:24, John 17:20-26 and will carry them out — aren't you?

puritan lad wrote: Do you believe these verses B.W.? It is you who are stringing together verses, wrenching them from their contexts, and promoting a false god who has everchanging decrees. Your god changes his mind? He makes mistakes and has to correct them (ie. with the flood)? I do not know this god you are speaking of, nor do I wish to. I'll worship the God who sits on His throne, governs His creation Himself, has established the end from the beginning, purposes the end, and works sovereignly to bring about that end. The god of changing decrees, blind chance, frustrated purposes, and wishful thinking is foreign to the Bible.

Again, I you can now plainly see, there is no middle ground. PL

PL — the flood was part of God's plan foreknown before the foundation of the world as God knows everything and changes not. I never stated nor do I believe God makes mistakes. I never wrote that He ever did in any of my discourses. God keeps his word and carries it out — praise the Lord he keeps his word and changes not!

Your misrepresentation of my view is in violation of — thou shall not bear false witness against you neighbor as well as taking the name of the Lord in vain. Also you are in violation of Proverbs 6:19.

I need to point this out to you as great sin resides at your door. Please turn from it before it is too late. You have been warned by a member of the body of Christ. James 5:19-20.
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B.W.,

I hate to point out to you that Acts 15:18 says that God foreknows HIS works, but we'll leave it at that. You've missed my entire point, and did not answer any of my questions.

You wrote that “the flood was part of God's plan foreknown before the foundation of the world as God knows everything and changes not”. Yet you previously used Genesis 6:6 to support that idea that God changes His mind. It can't be both. Either it was God's plan from the foundation of the world, or it was the result of God changing His mind. Which is it? The two are as incompatible as God's Absolute Sovereignty and Man's Libertarian Free Will. God's predestination and Contingency. You want to hold both, but it simply isn't feasible.

Your attempt to “reconcile” the debate has been fruitless, as I told you it would be. There is no middle ground. The debate between Calvinism and Arminianism is not an issue of “5-points”. They are completely different worldviews, and these posts are pointing that out.

Now before we get to “ad hominems”, “Satan is at the door”, etc. I suggest that we stop and pray about what we write next. I'll do so before I post again. The debate is important, and can be most fruitful. It's sure to be passionate, but we need to reign it is a bit.

God Bless,

PL

PL,

I'd like to lay out a possible answer to the question of how God can foreknow everything, decree it to happen, and still be able to change His mind. It's an inherently philosophical answer, but I don't find "philosophy" to be a dirty word - as you noted, it's a matter of world view. But, before doing that, I want to make sure the primary discussion you and I are having is at least progessing in a meaningful fashion . . . I'd rather not get side tracked there.

Anyway, whenever it comes up, I just would like to say that there are "middle grounds" on this, in that there are other world-views as they relate to God's sovereignty/free will other than Calvinism/Arminianism.

God bless

Jac3510 wrote:PL,

I'd like to lay out a possible answer to the question of how God can foreknow everything, decree it to happen, and still be able to change His mind. It's an inherently philosophical answer, but I don't find "philosophy" to be a dirty word - as you noted, it's a matter of world view. But, before doing that, I want to make sure the primary discussion you and I are having is at least progessing in a meaningful fashion . . . I'd rather not get side tracked there.

Anyway, whenever it comes up, I just would like to say that there are "middle grounds" on this, in that there are other world-views as they relate to God's sovereignty/free will other than Calvinism/Arminianism.

God bless

Please do.

In the meantime, I'm going to work on why I see them as incompatible. (We both believe in something called "free-will", we just define it differently).

puritan lad wrote:There is no middle ground. The debate between Calvinism and Arminianism is not an issue of “5-points”. They are completely different worldviews, and these posts are pointing that out.

I think you've made a very good point here P.L.

As is clear from much of this posting, Calvinism sees Sovereignty as pretty much the lynch-pin. Arminianism appears to focus upon the presence of Free-Will in the context of universal Grace. Very simplified of course.

To what extent do you suppose it possible that the systematic theology engaged in, in these types of arguments, relies as much upon the underpinning world view and interpretation of the person reading these key verses and rationalizing the seemingly conflicting verses, as upon an objective exegesis of each passage on its own merits?

Is there room at any juncture, or at any level for appealing to the mystery of the faith in terms of the characteristics and attributes of God?

Others involved in this thread please feel free to respond as well.

Is it possible that there are elements in this discussion, from any position, that are driven by a need or desire to have a complete understanding of all the elements involved to where, possibly, more is stated than what the verses themselves merit? If this were the case, does this systematizing and categorization of Scripture introduce any elements that might be suspect as Scripture itself doesn't use this form to make those points?

Obviously, this is a leading question. I'm not seeking to divert the conversation. I'd be interested in knowing what you all think about those possibilities.

puritan lad wrote: B.W.,

I hate to point out to you that Acts 15:18 says that God foreknows HIS works, but we'll leave it at that. You've missed my entire point, and did not answer any of my questions.

You wrote that “the flood was part of God's plan foreknown before the foundation of the world as God knows everything and changes not”. Yet you previously used Genesis 6:6 to support that idea that God changes His mind. It can't be both. Either it was God's plan from the foundation of the world, or it was the result of God changing His mind. Which is it? The two are as incompatible as God's Absolute Sovereignty and Man's Libertarian Free Will. God's predestination and Contingency. You want to hold both, but it simply isn't feasible.

Your attempt to “reconcile” the debate has been fruitless, as I told you it would be. There is no middle ground. The debate between Calvinism and Arminianism is not an issue of “5-points”. They are completely different worldviews, and these posts are pointing that out.

Now before we get to “ad hominems”, “Satan is at the door”, etc. I suggest that we stop and pray about what we write next. I'll do so before I post again. The debate is important, and can be most fruitful. It's sure to be passionate, but we need to reign it is a bit.

God Bless,

PL

PL, you view the world in a linear lynch-pin fashion. This is noble a commendable as it is how to learn things. However there is more than just a linear lynch-pin style in understanding God's nature, character, and wisdom. After putting all the linear pieces to together — you see the whole picture God wants us to see of himself. This you fail to see as do many, Job 36:24-33

Is God all powerful PL? If God is all powerfully sovereign, God can change his mind and wipe out every man, woman, and child on this planet! Do you agree that God Is This All Powerfully Sovereign, PL?

What keeps God from doing this PL? He has the sovereign right to wipe out! If it is based on the elect that prevents God from doing so then is man that powerful to stop God? Based on man — human beings stop God's plans? No it is deeper than that.

No PL, it was not God's intent to destroy the world in the flood as God had a sovereign plan greater than you or I can truly see and fully comprehend. God was grieved he made man but did not carry out his thoughts on the matter — did he?

Does this contradict scriptures you cited? No — God can do whatever He so desires however he so wants. He did not carry out his thoughts on the matter of destroying humanity then and there! No he did not! Yet the scriptures you cite declare that God carries out his thought! What gives?

What does this reveal? God knows what he wanted to do as he knows all things. When God changes his mind it is part of God's plan to do so. Point to ponder: Who made Noah righteous, Noah or God?

There is a purpose for God changing his mind and the purpose is for us to come to know and understand another snippet of what God is really like and his requirements he graciously grants and keeps.

This concept is foreign to you PL as according to your view point God must change his mind due to some outside influences, which is not the case at all. It is unfortunate that you cannot see God's marvelous nature, character, and wisdom that God displays.

God leaves tell-tell signs for us to follow that are a living imprints for us to learn and understand who God is. God did so in the flood account as well as elsewhere. He reveals himself in many diverse ways proving his nature, character, and wisdom is all that it is.

Can God know all things PL? Either he does or he does not. I am not an Armenian so do not read that into what I write.

Since God has a plan — a goal which is none other than prove he is all that he is to none other than himself — does this plan follow a linear path only or a holistic beginning to end and thus an end from the beginning plan?

What is God's final Goal PL? He is getting there and carrying it out. How? You ponder this on your own and do not answer back on this question until 7 years from current date.

God knows what he is doing, we do not. He reveals in parts so we can learn from him what he is like and understand whom we serve and why we serve.

God's ways — are they your ways PL — or my ways PL? The answer is No. God has his own ways as he sees beginning to end and end to beginning all in one flash of thought.

From this he works all things together however he so wills. Only God can do this. All we see are snap shots of his handiwork which engages our reason.

puritan lad wrote: your attempt to “reconcile” the debate has been fruitless, as I told you it would be. There is no middle ground. The debate between Calvinism and Arminianism is not an issue of “5-points”. They are completely different worldviews, and these posts are pointing that out.

I am not trying to reconcile only point out that 1 Corinthians 12:12-31 is true. PL you are not alone and by this terrible comment you are stating you are they only church and have need of no others in the body of Christ.
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Okay, if anyone wants to tackle this — I will state what I stated before in the beginning of my discourse on the other thread:

Does your doctrine measure up to the standards of God Himself?

What ever God does, plans, speaks, will be according to his nature, character, and wisdom. He will not change nor deny his own self. God remains true to himself, if not there could be no order, no life. Measuring your doctrines against who God is will cause you to know if your doctrine is founded on the Lord or not. Are you willing to do this?

This is no easy task and will take years of your own personal study, A study on this forum can shorten your quest a bit. You'll have to wrestle with issues you once thought were concrete but now require you turn toward the Lord of Glory and seek him. In this, you'll develop a living understanding and deeper relationship with the Lord than you ever dreamed possible. It is a journey.

First thing to understand is that everything God does is for his good pleasure which is none other than proving he is all that he is to none other than himself. God will not deny himself. To Himself he remains true. We have his word on this that changes not and performs the counsel of his will — which is being who he is in everything he does.

If your doctrine fails to line up with just one of the attributes of who God is as revealed in his word which he left for us to explore, your doctrine is in error. From this, I ask you in all humbleness to seek why and explore where God leads that will explain to you, the truth about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Let's begin:

Deuteronomy 32:3-5, “because I will proclaim the name of Jehovah and ascribe greatness to our God. He is the Rock; His work is perfect. For all His ways are just, a God of faithfulness, and without evil; just and upright is He. They have corrupted themselves; they are not His sons; it is their blemish; they are a crooked and perverse generation.” KJV

This passage reveals these points about God, his nature, character, and wisdom: 1) His work is perfect. 2) For all His ways are just, 3) a God of faithfulness, 4) and without evil 5) just and upright is He.

Does your doctrine line up with all these? Or does it fail? Are you willing to test it?

God is Omnipotent, all knowing, all wise, everywhere, will your doctrine line up with his nature? The bible declares these truths.

God is fair and just, the way he does things is right and does nothing in vain, there is no wickedness in God.

Psalm 9:8, “And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness, [fairness, equity, even handedness].”

Psalm 98:9. “Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity. [fairness, even handedness].”

Isaiah 45:18-19, “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.”

Does you doctrine line up with these characteristics God reveals about himself?

God is also self existent, self-sufficient, eternal, infinite, immutable, sovereign, holy, true, faithful, light, good, merciful, gracious, love, Trinity, incomprehensible. These things the bible reveals — does you doctrine violate any of these by contradictions?

Quite a test — to test your doctrines on predestination, free will, determinism, the reason for evil, choice, etc? By such a test, you'll discover balance and contradictions cleared up and corrected. The only thing that will prevent this — is pride — human pride.

Are you ready?
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BTW, PL:

While you are working on that last reply, I noticed something else about Eph. 2:8 that really argues against "this" referring to faith (and this isn't even based on Greek! ).

Let's look at both 8 and 9:

• For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. (NIV)

Ok, Paul says we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith and THIS is a gift. Obviously, you hold "this" is faith--faith is thus the gift. But look at the next part of the passage: "not by works, so that no one can boast." Whatever "this" is not only a gift; it is "not by works."

So, question: is salvation not by works, or is faith not by works? Your view would read this way:

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith--and this [faith] is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God--[this faith is] not of works, so that no one can boast."

On the other hand, you can read it:

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith--and this [salvation] is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God--[this salvation is] not of works, so that no one can boast."

So, again - is Paul saying here that salvation is not by works or that faith is not by works?

Thanks

So, again - is Paul saying here that salvation is not by works or that faith is not by works?

I initially said Grace was the gift because I was equating it with salvation. Now I agree with you, Jac. Plus Romans 6:23 keeps popping into my head.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Is that corroboration or what, and both are Paul quotes.

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Let the test begin:

Romans 5:12, “Because of this, even as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned.” LITV

Genesis 2:15-16, “And Jehovah God took the man and put him into the Garden of Eden, to work it and to keep it. And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden; but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.” LITV

Did sin enter through God as rigidly predestined or did it entered through man as God foreknown as the best course to reach his final goal?

If Sin entered by means of God rigidly predestining it - then the scriptures should read Romans 5:12, “Because of this, even as sin entered the world through one God, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned.” Paraphrased.

Or maybe something else:

If by sin entered through one man as God foreknown it would as the best course to reach His final goal — then should not the bible read as it does in Romans 5:12, “Because of this, even as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned.” LITV

Again, if God made man sin then how should Romans 2:4-6 read — like this: “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and the forbearance and the long-suffering, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But according to God hardening your impenitent heart, you treasure up to yourself wrath in a day of wrath, and revelation of a righteous judgment of God! He "will give to each according to God's works:" - paraphrase….

Or read as it is written in the bible:

Romans 2:4-6 read, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and the forbearance and the long-suffering, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up to yourself wrath in a day of wrath, and revelation of a righteous judgment of God? He "will give to each according to his works:" Psalms 61:13; Psalms. 62:12 — LITV

Which lines of thought lines up with God's Nature and Character and Wisdom?

Is it:

Galatians 6:7-8, “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man may sow, that he also will reap. For the one sowing to his flesh will reap corruption of the flesh. But the one sowing to the Spirit will reap everlasting life from the Spirit.” LITV

Or:

Galatians 6:7-8, “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever God may sow, that man also will reap. For the one sowing to his flesh will reap corruption of the flesh. But the one sowing to the Spirit will reap everlasting life from the Spirit.” Paraphrase

How can God design and create knowing full well that sin would enter His creation, [albeit only on the short term] and have this not cause God to deny or violate his nature, character, and wisdom? As it is written…

Deuteronomy 32:3, “because I will proclaim the name of Jehovah and ascribe greatness to our God. He is the Rock; His work is perfect. For all His ways are just, a God of faithfulness and without evil; just and upright is He.” LITV

Job 34:1-15, “Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding; far be it from God to do wickedly; and from the Almighty, to commit iniquity. For He repays man according to his work, and makes man to find a reward according to his way. Surely God will never do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert justice. Who gave Him charge over the earth? Or who has appointed Him over the whole world? If He should set His heart upon it, if He should gather to Himself his spirit and His breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would turn to dust.” NKJV

How can God design and create knowing full well that sin would enter His creation and still not be the author of evil, unjust, unfair, not-upright, and not commit iniquity?
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B.W.,

I will work on a detailed response soon (a busy week). I have been accused of being doctrinal "rigid" before, and I freely admit to this charge.

When it comes to the fullness of the knowledge of God, I fully agree with you (and scripture) that we can never know everything about God. (This is true, even in Heaven, or else we would be as God).

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deuteronomy 29:29)

What we see in the above verse is the following...

1.) God knows all, and we do not. (Therefore I agree with Canuckster, to a certain degree, that there is plenty of "mystery" surrounding the issue).

2.) God has His "Secret will", and His revealed will. More on this later.

3.) God does reveal some things to us. Here is where I tend to get "rigid". What God reveals to us, He does so in the Scriptures. The Scriptures, as I have pointed out many times, declare God's Absolute Sovereignty over all His Creation, His immutable, unchanging decrees, and His "rigid" predestination. What the Scriptures do not reveal is "libertarian free will", a "free will" that operates outside of God's Sovereign will, or even "changes God's mind", so to speak. This is a tough blow to many Christians today. They just have to be in charge. This belief leads to sme really bad theology, such as "cheap grace", Seeker Sensitive movements, and the tendency to psycho-analyze our sin rather than hate it, ie. "The reason we sin is because we are trying to fill the 'god-shaped' void in our souls with the wrong thing", etc. Anyways, more on this later.

God Bless,

PL

puritan lad wrote:B.W.,

I will work on a detailed response soon (a busy week). I have been accused of being doctrinal "rigid" before, and I freely admit to this charge.

When it comes to the fullness of the knowledge of God, I fully agree with you (and scripture) that we can never know everything about God. (This is true, even in Heaven, or else we would be as God).

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deuteronomy 29:29)

What we see in the above verse is the following...

1.) God knows all, and we do not. (Therefore I agree with Canuckster, to a certain degree, that there is plenty of "mystery" surrounding the issue).

2.) God has His "Secret will", and His revealed will. More on this later.

3.) God does reveal some things to us. Here is where I tend to get "rigid". What God reveals to us, He does so in the Scriptures. The Scriptures, as I have pointed out many times, declare God's Absolute Sovereignty over all His Creation, His immutable, unchanging decrees, and His "rigid" predestination. What the Scriptures do not reveal is "libertarian free will", a "free will" that operates outside of God's Sovereign will, or even "changes God's mind", so to speak. This is a tough blow to many Christians today. They just have to be in charge. This belief leads to sme really bad theology, such as "cheap grace", Seeker Sensitive movements, and the tendency to psycho-analyze our sin rather than hate it, ie. "The reason we sin is because we are trying to fill the 'god-shaped' void in our souls with the wrong thing", etc. Anyways, more on this later.

God Bless,

PL

Thank you PL - will wait for response.

Regarding God changing his mind, please note what 2 Kings 20:1-6 teaches
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B. W. wrote:

puritan lad wrote:B.W.,

I will work on a detailed response soon (a busy week). I have been accused of being doctrinal "rigid" before, and I freely admit to this charge.

When it comes to the fullness of the knowledge of God, I fully agree with you (and scripture) that we can never know everything about God. (This is true, even in Heaven, or else we would be as God).

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deuteronomy 29:29)

What we see in the above verse is the following...

1.) God knows all, and we do not. (Therefore I agree with Canuckster, to a certain degree, that there is plenty of "mystery" surrounding the issue).

2.) God has His "Secret will", and His revealed will. More on this later.

3.) God does reveal some things to us. Here is where I tend to get "rigid". What God reveals to us, He does so in the Scriptures. The Scriptures, as I have pointed out many times, declare God's Absolute Sovereignty over all His Creation, His immutable, unchanging decrees, and His "rigid" predestination. What the Scriptures do not reveal is "libertarian free will", a "free will" that operates outside of God's Sovereign will, or even "changes God's mind", so to speak. This is a tough blow to many Christians today. They just have to be in charge. This belief leads to sme really bad theology, such as "cheap grace", Seeker Sensitive movements, and the tendency to psycho-analyze our sin rather than hate it, ie. "The reason we sin is because we are trying to fill the 'god-shaped' void in our souls with the wrong thing", etc. Anyways, more on this later.

God Bless,

PL

Thank you PL - will wait for response.

Regarding God changing his mind, please note what 2 Kings 20:1-6 teaches
-
-
-

Yes. And here is where we see the difference between the revealed will of God and the secret will of God. This brings up two questions.

1.) Did God "foreknow" that He would add 15 years to Hezekiah's life? (See Acts 15:18). If so, did he really change His mind, or only His revealed will?

2.) A related question: If God "foreknew" that certain events would happen, why did He then have to predestine them? If He already foreknew them, then weren't they already predestined? Who or what predestined them? It would be like, "I know that Joe will exercise his faith to be saved, therefore I'll predestine for that to happen". ???

I'm working on the difference between the two in my detailed reply. As far as the secret will of God goes, "The counsel of Jehovah standeth fast forever, The plans of his heart to all generations." (Psalms 33:11). It cannot change, for none can change it. Otherwise, God's "foreknowing" merely becomes guesswork.

God Bless,

PL

puritan lad wrote:

B. W. wrote:

puritan lad wrote:B.W.,

I will work on a detailed response soon (a busy week). I have been accused of being doctrinal "rigid" before, and I freely admit to this charge.

When it comes to the fullness of the knowledge of God, I fully agree with you (and scripture) that we can never know everything about God. (This is true, even in Heaven, or else we would be as God).

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deuteronomy 29:29)

What we see in the above verse is the following...

1.) God knows all, and we do not. (Therefore I agree with Canuckster, to a certain degree, that there is plenty of "mystery" surrounding the issue).

2.) God has His "Secret will", and His revealed will. More on this later.

3.) God does reveal some things to us. Here is where I tend to get "rigid". What God reveals to us, He does so in the Scriptures. The Scriptures, as I have pointed out many times, declare God's Absolute Sovereignty over all His Creation, His immutable, unchanging decrees, and His "rigid" predestination. What the Scriptures do not reveal is "libertarian free will", a "free will" that operates outside of God's Sovereign will, or even "changes God's mind", so to speak. This is a tough blow to many Christians today. They just have to be in charge. This belief leads to sme really bad theology, such as "cheap grace", Seeker Sensitive movements, and the tendency to psycho-analyze our sin rather than hate it, ie. "The reason we sin is because we are trying to fill the 'god-shaped' void in our souls with the wrong thing", etc. Anyways, more on this later.

God Bless,

PL

Thank you PL - will wait for response.

Regarding God changing his mind, please note what 2 Kings 20:1-6 teaches
-
-
-

Yes. And here is where we see the difference between the revealed will of God and the secret will of God. This brings up two questions.

1.) Did God "foreknow" that He would add 15 years to Hezekiah's life? (See Acts 15:18). If so, did he really change His mind, or only His revealed will?

2.) A related question: If God "foreknew" that certain events would happen, why did He then have to predestine them? If He already foreknew them, then weren't they already predestined? Who or what predestined them? It would be like, "I know that Joe will exercise his faith to be saved, therefore I'll predestine for that to happen". ???

I'm working on the difference between the two in my detailed reply. As far as the secret will of God goes, "The counsel of Jehovah standeth fast forever, The plans of his heart to all generations." (Psalms 33:11). It cannot change, for none can change it. Otherwise, God's "foreknowing" merely becomes guesswork.

God Bless,

PL

PL

Doesn't this philosophically have a lot in common with the classical question, "Can God create an object so large, that He cannot lift it?"

In a sense, "Can a sovereign God who is omniscient, and omnipotent create a finite being; man, and allow that man moral free agency with the right to chose between prescribed paths with consequences contingent upon that choice without compromising the immutable attributes of God?"

How much of this question is based on the viewpoint of us as humans asking it, and how much of it is based in any real sense upon the infinite attributes of God, which by definition, we as finite cannot completely grasp.

I understand and agree completely that that which is revealed in Scripture must be accepted as the final word. I still wonder how much is exegesis and how much is eisogesis on both sides of this classical debate.

Maybe you can address that in your answer when you're ready.

Blessings,

Bart