going to hell?

[B. W.]

Actually, in the o.t., it was Jesus that Moses spoke to, not God. Yes, I know that Jesus is God, but God the Son is actually the God in the o.t. as well as the new.

Stephen lets you know what Moses really saw, an angel.

Acts
7:30 “After82 forty years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the desert83 of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush.84 7:31 When Moses saw it, he was amazed at the sight, and when he approached to investigate, there came the voice of the Lord, 7:32 'I am the God of your forefathers,85 the God of Abraham, Isaac,86 and Jacob.

The angel wasnt God but he represented God. The angel said he was God even though he wasnt. This is called God manifestation. This is how the Apostle was able to write God was manifeted in flesh.

God also said he will send his Angel before Israel and he shall be your God. Look it up

Hi Nick,

You attribute that Jesus was only an anointed man sent to do a task just like Elijah or Moses as in a role of an anointed deliverer. Unfortunately, you are sadly misled. Jesus did not come to end Roman Rule and Occupation; Jesus came to free those that trust in him from sin and death.

If Jesus was only a mere mortal anointed man as you believe, he could not have paid the penalty for sin because man would have earned his own salvation by his own works. We are not saved by works least anyone should boast. You boast that salvation came through humanity's works and not God's.

If Jesus was only a mere mortal anointed man as you believe then he would have been sent to do a task to provide temporary deliverance just as the bible proves about all of Israel's deliverers. Jesus went beyond this. He set us free from sin and death. This is only a work that God can do himself. He will not share this glory with another. It is by grace we are saved — God's work not humanity's. Your doctrine makes its humanities work that saves denying that only God can save as the bible teaches (see verses below).

True deliverance can only come about by God himself as He said — only He is such a savior and this glory will he not share with another. He provided the sacrifice in Genesis chapter 3. This work only He alone will accomplish. He will not allow one to worship another, yet Christians worship Christ (I hope you and Jenna do). This Glory he will not share with another.

Temporary deliverers were not of the same caliber as Jesus as they never dealt with sin of the whole entire world. That is a work that only God can do and he did so through the second person of the Trinity.

In order to understand and grasp the Trinity better concerning how it articulates the oneness of God think of the Father expressed as the Nature of the one and only God, The Son expressing the Character of one and only God and the Holy Spirit expressed as the power/life of one and only God and you'll begin to see that there is none like the Lord. This God spoke about himself — none like him!

For you to reduce God to the same level of oneness as a singular deity like Zeus denies the unique oneness of God. This makes me wonder if those that contend that oneness of God means that God is just like any other singular being are breaking the commandment mentioned below:

Deuteronomy 5:8-9, “Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, even any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 9 Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate Me…” JPS

Orthodox Christians do not worship three separate God's but One God understanding that there is none like him. The Trinity preserves God's uniqueness and explains how Jesus was both 100% man and 100% God as only God can save and deliver from sin and death. That Glory he will not give another.

As it is written in these Bible verses:

Isaiah 48:8-11, “You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened. For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously, and that from before birth you were called a rebel. 9 "For my name's sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off. 10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction. 11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.”

Isaiah 45:17, “But Israel is saved by the LORD with everlasting salvation; you shall not be put to shame or confounded to all eternity.”

Isaiah 45:21-22, “Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other."

1 John 2:2, "He (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Isaiah 42:5-8, “Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it: 6 "I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations, 7 to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in darkness. 8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols."

John 8:58-59, “Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple."

Bible quotes from ESV
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[Byblos]

Nick,

Your last 2 posts in this thread were deleted for violation of board purpose and discussion guidelines. Clearly you are not here to engage in conversion nor are you here as a sincere seeker. You are here to proselytize and recruit. Your arguments are nothing new; we have seen them all and, dare I say, from much abler master christadelphians. We are very familiar with your belief system and do not consider it as orthodox Christian, regardless of what you and your group consider yourselves. This board is not for you, please move on.

Byblos,
Moderator.

[B. W.]

Part One - Study from Psalms 88:

Introduction:

“Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed (shades) rise up to praise you? Selah 11 Is your steadfast love declared in the grave, or your faithfulness in Abaddon? 12 Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?” Psalms 88:10-12, ESV

Those that adhere to the doctrines of Annihilationism, Soul Sleep, and the various other forms of conditional immortality use bible verses from Psalms 88:10-12 as a proof text to bolster their assertions by simply connecting these to other verse such a Ecc 9:5-6, Isaiah 26:14, Isaiah 38:18 without regard to paying any attention to context of scripture, continuity with other parts of the bible, and common sense. In other words, one 'leads the witness' to reach a presupposed conclusion based on personal bias.

This is how error can become doctrine. For example, you can take the word translated 'beat' in our Bibles and connect all the passages that describe 'beat / beating' and teach that is okay to beat up anybody perceived as a fool as a justifiable act of God and then turn it into dogma.

Actually, in fact Psalms 88:10-12, Ecc 9:5-6, Isaiah 26:14, Isaiah 38:18, do not back up such assertions that the dead 'cease to exist' or support some form of 'soul sleep' as we shall soon see. There are other parts neglected in these bible chapters that these dogmas have failed to mention as well as a continued denial of the continuity with other bible passages related to the theme of the subject matter on the hereafter.

Another important note is that all languages of the world are sloppy. One word can be used in a variety of ways. You cannot lock a single definition to a word as concrete and unchanging in all cases it is used. Those that adhere to the doctrines of Annihilationism, Soul Sleep, and the various other forms of conditional immortality dogma do just that. They define a word in concrete terms without regard to how it is used in each case where it is used.

For example, such words translated destruction, ruin, destroyed, annihilate, perish, are all cemented to mean non-existence and nothing else. Here is an example of how we use the word annihilate. The Denver Broncos annihilated the Kansas City Chief's during a Monday night football game. Funny, the Chief's same players still exist and they all will play another game with another team the following week. If the team was annihilated, then all players should have died during the game and now be buried in their grave if 'annihilate' can only mean non-existences. You see how important it is to apply context to the meaning of a word?

To understand Psalms 88:10-12, one should first consider the writer's frame of mind and also keep these verses in context with the rest of Psalm 88. Next, the context of Psalm 88 will also line up with other parts of the bible and thus paints a more accurate picture of what these passages mean (as we shall soon see) without any slight of hand.

In the next few post, I'll point these out in a slow and methodical manner.

By B. W. Melvin — know as B. W. on this thread
Author of: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion
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[B. W.]

Part Two Study from Psalms 88:

The Writer

The writer of Psalms 88 wrote under great duress and was brought low to the point of despair. Why this occurred to the writer can be summed up in Psalms 107:10-14, 15-16, 43.

Psalms 107:10-20, 43, “Such as sat in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron - 11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the Most High. 12 Therefore He humbled their heart with travail, they stumbled, and there was none to help - 13 They cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and He saved them out of their distresses. 14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and broke their bands in sunder. 15 Let them give thanks unto the LORD for His mercy, and for His wonderful works to the children of men! 16 For He hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder. 17 Crazed because of the way of their transgression, and afflicted because of their iniquities - 18 Their soul abhorred all manner of food, and they drew near unto the gates of death - 19 They cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and He saved them out of their distresses; 20 He sent His word, and healed them, and delivered them from their graves. ('their graves' comes from two Hebrew words — meaning 'to be Part of' and 'Pit' (the Pit) — hence meaning 'their part in the Pit.' Also note that the bible does use the word 'grave' synonymously with 'The Pit' and the 'abode of the dead' as well as method of burial. Even more important to note is when later, Jesus, the eternal Logos, Word, came and brought healing that delivers us from the Pit)… 43 Whoso is wise, let him observe these things, and let them consider the mercies (lovingkindness) of the LORD.” JPS

The writer of Psalms 88 was going through such a trial when he wrote this Psalm and relates in this Psalm with those that had no part in the covenant with God and were numbered with those people (nations) that forgot God and whose part was in the Pit (Sheol) banished from God forever. Whatever the writer's sin was, he felt it numbered him with those that rejected God. He was in great duress to the point of utmost despair and wrote his feelings in a manner most human.

The writer eventually, through his trial of great suffering was learning about the loving-kindness of the Lord. Sometimes it takes suffering in order to strengthen faith in God and to be set free from the cause of the suffering. Sometimes hardship is used by the Lord to refine a person's character with the goal of shedding human sin and doubt so one can trust in the Lord explicitly. Sometimes the only way God can wake up a person to there greatest need is through affliction in order to save their souls. The writer of Psalms 88 went through such a trial by being brought to the pangs of death in order to save him sin and death.

Job 33:16-30 speaks of this very thing:

"...then he (God) opens the ears of men and terrifies them with warnings, 17 that he may turn man aside from his deed and conceal pride from a man; 18 he keeps back his soul from the pit, his life from perishing by the sword. 19 "Man is also rebuked with pain on his bed and with continual strife in his bones, 20 so that his life loathes bread, and his appetite the choicest food. 21 His flesh is so wasted away that it cannot be seen, and his bones that were not seen stick out. 22 His soul draws near the pit, and his life to those who bring death. 23 If there be for him an angel, a mediator, one of the thousand, to declare to man what is right for him, 24 and he is merciful to him, and says, 'Deliver him from going down into the pit; I have found a ransom; 25 let his flesh become fresh with youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor'; 26 then man prays to God, and he accepts him; he sees his face with a shout of joy, and he restores to man his righteousness. 27 He sings before men and says: 'I sinned and perverted what was right, and it was not repaid to me. 28 He has redeemed my soul from going down into the pit, and my life shall look upon the light.'29 Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, 30 to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life." ESV - Job 33:16-30
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[B. W.]

Part Three - Study of Psalm 88:1-9

Verses 1 through 5

Let's look at verses 1-9 of this Psalm because these verses define the meaning of verses 10-12 as well as points out clearly the meaning of the text. Let's start by looking at the main points of verse 1-3:

Psalms 88:1-3, “…O LORD, God of my salvation; I cry out day and night before you. 2 Let my prayer come before you; incline your ear to my cry! 3 For my soul is full of troubles, and my life draws near to Sheol…” ESV

Psalms 88:1-3 describes the author's soul being full of trouble and his life drawing near to Sheol. Sheol in the Old Testament refers to the abode of the dead and used synonymously with the Pit, Hell, Hades, Chambers of death, grave, etc. It is a place inhabited by 'shades.'

This abode of the dead was where the shades reside (Shades represent what some one term nowadays as the Spirit of a human being or a departed Soul). The Old Testament does reference that departed souls /spirit remain cognizant and aware in the afterlife. This is important because it unlocks the meaning of Psalms 88 by remaining in continuity with the whole of scripture regarding the subject of the afterlife. For example:

Ezekiel 32:31 speaking what it is like in the Pit it says: "When Pharaoh sees them...." ESV

--- The bible reveals that Pharaoh is in this Pit as well as others and they do indeed see denoting living cognizance after death. Pharaoh was down there a long time when the Ezekiel wrote this ---

Ezekiel 32:21 in the KJV version, most accurate by keeping in line with the original Hebrew word order, reveals that those in the Pit speak: " The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.” KJV

Isaiah 14:9-10 also states: "Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you (Lucifer) when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. 10 All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!" RSV

---Those that go into the Pit do indeed hear, speak, and see denoting living cognizance after death. To 'lie uncircumcised' means these persons were not part of the covenant people of God and that these people now dwell with all peoples (nations) that forget God. Please Note Pslam 9:17, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." KJV---

Job 26:5-6, "The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering." JPS

---The dead - shades - tremble - yes movement denotes a living cognizance after death---

Proverbs 21:16, "The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades." JPS

---A congregation of the shades? How can this be if only one person is buried individually in their own burial grave?---

These are just a few bible passages that show that the after dying people do indeed go to a different realm and are thus not soul sleeping or annihilated into non-being but are indeed alive in some form where they are gathered together.

Now look at Psalms 88:4-5: “I am counted among those who go down to the pit; I am a man who has no strength, 5 like one set loose among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, like those whom you remember no more, for they are cut off from your hand.” ESV

These verses are very revealing and the biblical symbolism is profoundly simple to understand. Notice the writer says he is like one counted among those who go down into the pit, like one set loose among the dead. Like the slain that God remembers no more and 'are' cut off from Him forever.

To gain better insight on what the writer is conveying, you need to ask yourself — Are there specific bible verses that describe those counted among those go down into the Pit and who are cut off from the Lord set loose among the dead? (who are they?) It is easy to build verses one upon each other to build a doctrine, it is another matter to have scripture answer and itself in clear correlations and themes without contradictions.

We shall see in Part Four...
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[B. W.]

9/24/2008

-- Part Four - Study Psalms 88 verses 4-6

The Scriptures - What They Reveal:

I stated this last post:

To gain better insight on what the writer is conveying, you need to ask yourself — Are there specific bible verses that describe those counted among those go down into the Pit and who are cut off from the Lord set loose among the dead? (who are they?) It is easy to build verses one upon each other to build a doctrine, it is another matter to have scripture answer and itself in clear correlations and themes without contradictions.

So let's examine a few of these in more detail:

Ezekiel 31:15-18 describes those whom will be cast down into the pit in correlation with Psalms 9:17 declaration: “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.” KJV

(Note: people make a nation a nation and a nation cannot be a nation without people)

Now note Ezekiel 31:16: “I made the nations quake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to Sheol with those who go down to the pit…” ESV

The Psalms 88:4 says in the ESV: “I am counted among those who go down to the pit….” The writer is not speaking of those called the righteous dead who are in covenant with God. It is obvious from the context he is referring to those that have been cut off from the Lord as verse five states: “for they are cut off from your hand.”

Only those that are cut off from the Lord go into this place called the Pit. The writer is comparing himself as belonging to the worst of the people who have been cut off from God — the uncircumcised who do not belong to the covenant people of God.

Ezekiel 32:18- 32 goes on to describes Sheol as a round pit with cells embedded within its walls where the shades reside. It further describes these cells surrounding in a circular fashion whomever leader these people held allegiance too which places these leaders the middle of the Pit.

Ezekiel 32:21-23, “21 The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: 'They have come down, they lie still (placed with), the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.' 22 "Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, 23 whose graves are set in the uttermost parts of the pit; and her company is all around her grave (an image of a burial chamber), all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living. 24 "Elam is there, and all her multitude around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised into the world below, who spread their terror in the land of the living; and they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit.” ESV

Notice the English Standard Version translation reads the phrase 'lie still'. The context speaks of placing these lost souls into the walls of this Pit: Placed to reside alongside others of like crimes. The KJV follows the Hebrew word order more accurately in verse 21. However the context of verses 21-24 in the ESV substantiates that those that 'lie still' descend to be placed alongside with the uncircumcised within the cells of this pit.

The phrase the ESV uses 'lie still' does not imply soul sleep or non-existence but rather that these persons were placed in with all those mentioned in the text. Since they were placed, confined within the chambers embedded within the walls of the Pit, then they can no longer return to the land of the living ever to be able to ever oppress and cause harm again.

Therefore, 'to lie still' as used in the ESV does not imply soul sleep, and not annihilationism, but rather placement along with others of like mind. The original Hebrew word order and definitions verifies this as well uses words that denote 'being placed' rather than 'lying still.' In other words they were placed with the uncircumcised fully exposed for who and what they are and did. In fact the Hebrew word meanings point this very well. That is why I say that the KJV follows the original word order of verse 21 very well and captures the meaning accurately.

(Note: Eze 32:21, "The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword." KJV)

Ezekiel 32:31, "When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD."32 For I spread terror in the land of the living; and he shall be laid to rest among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord GOD."

These individuals in their 'shade' state are very much alive because the following passages refer to them being able to hear and speak as the rest of text reveals. Notice that those that are placed with the nations (peoples) that forget God are considered dead and that they do hear and speak. These people are described as being cut of from God remembered no more in the land of the living or by God.

Also note what the Lord speaks out from these scriptures as well:

Isaiah 3:11, "Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him, for what his hands have dealt out shall be done to him. " ESV

Nahum 1:3, "The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, and the LORD will by no means clear (acquit) the guilty..."ESV

Isaiah 48:22, "There is no peace (7965 Strongs)," says the LORD, "for the wicked." ESV

Now back to Psalms 88: 4-5: “I am counted among those who go down to the pit…5 like one set loose among the dead.” ESV

Set loose among the dead implies a place where the shades reside — together in a congregation of like minded souls. From other passages from the bible it paints that they are not at rest or peace in any shape or form and instead are reaping what they have sown, justly. The LORD will by no means acquit the guilty.

Now look at Proverbs 21:16, "The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades." JPS and Proverbs 7:27 describes dame folly as: “Her house is the way to the nether-world, going down to the chambers of death.” JPS

There is a congregation of shades as well as chambers, prison cells. Ez 32:23 states: “whose graves are set in the uttermost parts of the pit; and her company is all around her grave (burial Chambers)…” Line up with proverbs descriptions of Sheol — the Pit.

Now read Psalms 88: 4-6 in full context: “I am counted among those who go down to the pit; I am a man who has no strength, 5 like one set loose among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, like those whom you remember no more, for they are cut off from your hand. 6 You have put me in the depths of the pit, in the regions dark and deep…” and notice the correlations with actual other bible verse that describes this area that the writer of Psalms 88 mentions.

To be continued in Part 5...

By B. W. Melvin — know as B. W. on this thread
Author of: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion
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[B. W.]

Part Five —

Study from Psalms 88: Verse 6-9

Review

Before we begin again with Psalms 88, there is a need to clarify Ezekiel 32:31, "When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude…”

I will do this because this passage has caused people to ask questions about Pharaoh being comforted. So I'll address this quickly in keeping with shorter post for easier reading.

How could Pharaoh be comforted if there is no rest for the wicked and as Isaiah 3:11 reveals that it will be ill with the iniquitous, for what they have dealt out shall be returned to them, then how would Pharaoh find comfort in this Pit?

The answer is found in the context of verse 30 and it is this context that narrows the broad Hebrew wording meaning of the word translated here as 'comfort.' Often, well meaning people will look up a word meaning and apply a definition to it that denies the context in which it is used and thus can lead to erroneous assumptions of what a bible verse means. The context defines the particular word meaning from the various definitions a word can have.

This goes for the Hebrew word nâcham used in Ez 32:31.The Hebrew word nâcham can mean to sorrow, or to be very sorry, regret what one has done, as well as comfort and finding comfort, or consoling oneself, or be cheered. The main usage has to do with regret and remorse. When used to speak of comfort it denotes various forms of consoling to bring comfort, etc. Again, the context in how nâcham is used draws out the correct meaning whenever it is used and keep in mind nâcham does not mean a single definition in all cases which it is used.

When it speaks of Pharaoh being comforted inEzekiel 32:31, the context reveals much. Notice it says. "When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude…” Pharaoh is looking at 'all his multitude.' While doing so, he finds comfort. But type of comfort is being described?

Now what type of comfort (nâcham) is he finding? Ezekiel 32:30 defines what type: "The princes of the north are there, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who have gone down in shame with the slain, for all the terror that they caused by their might; they lie uncircumcised with those who are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with those who go down to the pit.” ESV

Those that go into the Pit bear their own shame, even Pharaoh because he is with them in the pit. Pharaoh is looking on and sees the multitudes bearing their own shame. By this he is cheered (NIV, LITV), comforted (ESV, KJV). What does this tell you about this Pharaoh? When someone delights watching someone being afflicted with shame and punishment we call such people — evil or at least Sadistic. The context explains that this 'comfort' is by no means a 'peaceful rest' in any shape or form because all that go into this Pit will bear their own shame.

If anything, the context is showing that either Pharaoh is being cheered by sadistic pleasure (comfort) for bringing his own followers into the pit with him, or at the least, feeling great shame and remorse for dragging others down with him. Both these are plausible usages in Ez 32:30 as the word nâcham can express either in its meaning and it also can be used in a manner that describes both at the same time. You decide.

Part Six will continue and take up where we left oft in Psalms 88 looking at verses 6-9. As I stated earlier — I will be going slow…

Sorry for having to step back a bit...

Next post, Part Six, will continue Psalms 88
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[B. W.]

Part Six

Now let us continue on to Psalms 88:6-9

Psalms 88:6-7, “6 You have put me in the depths of the pit, in the regions dark and deep. 7 Your wrath lies heavy upon me, and you overwhelm me with all your waves. Selah (Selah means to: stop/pause to think on this; Meditate/ponder thus and the last 7 verses)” ESV

Verse 6: 'You have put me in the depths of the pit, in the regions dark and deep' From the references already used in parts 1 thru 5, the Pit is describes as a place dark and deep. It is also described in Revelations 20:1 as bottomless: “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit….” ESV

Psalms 88:7, “Your wrath lies heavy upon me, and you overwhelm me with all your waves. Selah (Selah means to think on this; Meditate/ponder this)” ESV

The writer of Psalms 88 describes the hand of God's wrath being heavy upon him (as was discussed earlier in Part 2) and that he feels he is in the depths of the Pit. Regarding God's wrath, Deuteronomy 32:22 states the fire of God's wrath burns the depths of Sheol: “For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.” ESV

The picture is that God's wrath is compared to molten waves and fire. God's anger flows this way in the great deep, in the depths of Sheol. Is this figurative or literal? In my opinion, when compared with other scriptures regarding fires of hell and God's wrath these descriptions are both figurative and literal. Jesus warns of such fire.

Now notice how the author of Psalms 88 description corresponds with Deuteronomy 32:22 and as well with Job 26:5-6.

PS 88:7, “Your wrath lies heavy upon me, and you overwhelm me with all your waves. Selah” ESV

Notice howJob 26:5-6 reference to a Hebrew word denoting 'deep water': "The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering." JPS

Selah: Stop/pause and think on this; Meditate/ponder.

The Shades 'tremble' indicates cognizance, not soul sleep not annihilation and not even purification. Remember from Ezekiel 32 that one of the purposes of Pit of hell is to uncover the person for who and what they really are. This is termed in Ezekiel 32 as being uncircumcised signifying 'being fully exposed.' In Ez 32:21 the KJV translates, “they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised…” The word translated 'uncircumcised' also indicates being exposed: ones most vulnerable part exposed revealing who and what a one is really like uncovering and making this manifest.

Job 26:6 states: "The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction (Abaddon) hath no covering." JPS

To have no covering refers that a person cannot hide. Who they really are and are like is in the process of being completely uncovered. Compare this with the New Testament when Paul states in the book of Romans that all are under sin and all have a sin nature then you'll grasp better what is being exposed (Romans 3:9-12 and Romans 5).

Abaddon is a place of bringing one into a state of ruin and continual destruction. Ruin and destruction do not denote the non-being of non-existence or cleansing. If you think the fires of hell involve cleansing fires of afterlife forgiveness, think again. It is written, God will not acquit the guilty. Salvation only comes in this mortal life, not in the hereafter.

Why? Again Isaiah 26:10 answers why: “Let favor be shown to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.” JPS

Again Nahum 1:3, “The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked…” KJV

Since the bible reveals that the dead remain alive in another form in the hereafter hearing, speaking, feeling shame, trembling, etc, this is not describing a state 'non-being' but rather indicates living in eternal darkness (doom forever banished from God). This living in a continued state of ruin forever is what living in eternal darkness / doom is all about. In such eternal darkness is where a person becomes fully vested in their sin nature because that is what they wanted more than the Lord as proven by the testimony that their mortal life proves beyond all reasonable doubt (note John 3:18-21, 36).

Now back to Psalms 88:7 “Your wrath lies heavy upon me…”

The writer is in great duress and is relating to those that do not belong to the Lord who reside in the Pit. God's wrath burns like molten waves and these lay heavy upon him. In order to gain more insight into this verse and why this was happening to the writer of Psalms 88 please read Part 1-3 again but if you choose not too, look at Job 33 again:

Job 33:14-26, “For God speaks in one way, and in two, though man does not perceive it; 15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men, while they slumber on their beds, 16 then he opens the ears of men and terrifies them with warnings, 17 that he may turn man aside from his deed and conceal pride from a man; 18 he keeps back his soul from the pit, his life from perishing by the sword.

“19 "Man is also rebuked with pain on his bed and with continual strife in his bones, 20 so that his life loathes bread, and his appetite the choicest food. 21 His flesh is so wasted away that it cannot be seen, and his bones that were not seen stick out. 22 His soul draws near the pit, and his life to those who bring death.

“23 If there be for him an angel, a mediator, one of the thousand, to declare to man what is right for him, 24 and he is merciful to him, and says, 'Deliver him from going down into the pit; I have found a ransom; 25 let his flesh become fresh with youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor'; 26 then man prays to God, and he accepts him; he sees his face with a shout of joy, and he restores to man his righteousness.

“27 He sings before men and says: 'I sinned and perverted what was right, and it was not repaid to me. 28 He has redeemed my soul from going down into the pit, and my life shall look upon the light.' 29 "Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, 30to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life.” ESV

Again note Psalms 88:8-9: “You have caused my companions to shun me; you have made me a horror to them. I am shut in so that I cannot escape; 9 my eye grows dim through sorrow. Every day I call upon you, O LORD; I spread out my hands to you.” ESV

Notice that verses 14-18 takes up this lament: "O LORD, why do you cast my soul away? Why do you hide your face from me? 15 Afflicted and close to death from my youth up, I suffer your terrors; I am helpless. 16 Your wrath has swept over me; your dreadful assaults destroy me. 17 They surround me like a flood all day long; they close in on me together. 18 You have caused my beloved and my friend to shun me; my companions have become darkness.” Psalms 88:14-18 ESV

What more can I say or add except that now we do have a mediator, Jesus Christ, who found ransom for us that we may live!

Look to him and live!

Too be Continued in Part Seven
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[B. W.]

Part Seven - Study from Psalms 88:

Now Finally Psalms 88:10-13

Psalms 88:10-12: “Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah 11 Is your steadfast love declared in the grave, or your faithfulness in Abaddon? 12 Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?”

Now we come to the oft used verses used by those that adhere to annihilationism and soul sleep to support a state of non-being / non-existence of those that have died. As stated early, these verses do not support such doctrine due to the very context of the last nine verses.

As we have seen in context, the writer was going through a time of great tribulation. It was most likely that the writer's health was brought to the edge death. He felt like he was being slain by the Lord and brought to the Pit of Sheol where those who were not God's covenant people resided. Sent to the Pit where the worst offenders were gathered together, along with their leaders, to spend eternity forsaken by God forever to bear their own shame.

This is brought out in verse 5 (ESV): “like one set loose among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, like those whom you remember no more, for they are cut off from your hand.” Let's look more closely:

“Like one set loose among the dead” - correlates to:

Proverbs 21:16, "The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades." JPS

“Like the slain that lie in the grave” — correlates too:

Ezekiel 32:21, "The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword." KJV

“Like those whom you remember no more, for they are cut off from your hand” - correlates too:

Psalms 9:17: “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.” KJV

Ezekiel 32:21, "Elam is there, and all her multitude around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised into the world below, who spread their terror in the land of the living; and they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit.” ESV

The bible speaks metaphorically of those cut off from God as being buried, going to the grave, never to rise to live with God in light, where the memory of them fades in the land of the living. This description is also brought forth by Jesus in Luke 16:19, 22, 23:

"And there was a certain rich man; and he was accustomed to don a purple robe and fine linen, making merry in luxury day by day…22 And it happened, the poor one died and was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich one also died and was buried…23 And being in torments in hell, lifting up his eyes, he sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom…”

This most certain rich man was buried; yet, after death he spoke and saw which correlates with Ezekiel 32 description of those also cut off from God as living in eternal state of darkness (doom) never to rise to live in the light of God. The certain man was also animate and he felt thirst. This correlates to Job 26:5-6 description of the 'shades' trembling — also denoting feeling.

Remember Jesus used illustrations based on truth that he knows as certain. He uses truth to covey more than one thing. Annihilationist interpret Luke's account in disregard of the truth that Jesus knows regarding the afterlife as being true and in exchange twist it by saying that 'Jesus did not mean that because he meant something else.' This negates truth as well as denies context and harmony of scripture.

Now we come to Psalms 88:10, “Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah.”

The dead spoken of here refer to the uncircumcised who never did belong to God as the context of verse 5 implies as well as lines up with what other scriptures reveal regarding this very same subject. These dead are indeed cognizant and definitely not soul-sleeping nor annihilated into non-being.

Psalms 88:10-12: “Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah (stop and ponder)....

11 Is your steadfast love declared in the grave, or your faithfulness in Abaddon? 12 Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? "

It states obviously from the context of verse Psalms 88:5, as well as other scriptures, that those that are cut off, rejected God and wanted no Part of God while they lived in their mortal state; thus, they are not remembered by God. These persons will by no means whatsoever be praising God, or extolling God's love, faithfulness, righteousness where they are at because in the Pit they will be busy bearing their own shame.

The dead here spoken in Ps 88:10-12 are the unrighteous dead and such will not be praising God for any reason on any matter pertaining to God. The writer related himself with those that were cut off from God. Why would those that are 'Cut Off' be praising God? The writer is driving at this point: 'Lord please do not utterly forsake me - let me live!.' This is what, in essence, he was saying. Notice the Selah of verse 10 to tell the reader to stop and think - ponder what he wrote.

The phrase — “Do the departed rise up to praise you?” denotes living cognizance of the unrighteous dead mentioned in verse 5. In fact, other parts of the bible state what some of these unrighteous dead will be conversing. and they are definitely not praising God as it is written:

Ezekiel 32:21, " The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.” KJV

Isaiah 14:9-10, "Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you (Lucifer) when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. 10 All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!" RSV

Luke 16:23-24: “And being in torments in hell, lifting up his eyes, he sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And calling he said, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame.”

Is it any wonder the writer of Psalms 88, who is relating with those that are cut off from God (verse 5), would say in verses 10 through 12 that these dead (shades) will not be praising God nor declaring God's faithfulness in such a place as the Pit? Why would such be therefore praising God whom they reject?

It is not that they cannot because they have ceased to exist, or they're in some state of peaceful non-threatening merciful sleep, but rather they cannot due to their sin nature being made completely manifest and uncovered. They rejected God and in turn are rejected by God. How could they praise God for anything?

For example, the rich man in Luke 16 spoke of his self wants and needs. He was not praising the Lord nor extolling Him by any means. His focus was on himself in the current now. He was not concerned about what his mortal life had proved beyond all reasonable doubt, his selfishness, nor was he trying to leave. He was bearing his shame, forever unrepentant. Listen again to Job 26:5-6:

"The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering." JPS

This certain rich man's selfishness was being uncovered.

Now back tooPslams 88:10-12, “Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah…(pause stop and ponder)…

“11 Is your steadfast love declared in the grave, or your faithfulness in Abaddon? 12 Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"

It is clear from the bible itself that God will do no wonders, such as allow them that are cut off from God into his Heavenly Kingdom, because the Lord will by no means acquit the guilty as it is written: Nahum 1:3, “The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked…” KJV

Why is furthered explained in Isaiah 26:10: “Let favor be shown to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.” JPS

These that go into the pit will remain there, forgotten, alone, and alive in their cells in the deep recesses of the Pit waiting for their final judgment and sentencing. This is terrifying! This is far more terrifying than being annihilated into non-being which in essences is a type of restful peace that God himself will never grant them as it is written in Isaiah 48:22, "There is no peace," says the LORD, "for the wicked." ESV

In closing Part Seven:

Ps 88:13, "But I, O LORD, cry to you; in the morning my prayer comes before you."

The author of Psalms 88 prayer is stated in the closing verses. Please remember what was stated in Part 5 about Job 33:14-26:

Psalms 88:14-18: “O LORD, why do you cast my soul away? Why do you hide your face from me? 15 Afflicted and close to death from my youth up, I suffer your terrors; I am helpless. 16 Your wrath has swept over me; your dreadful assaults destroy me. 17 They surround me like a flood all day long; they close in on me together. 18 You have caused my beloved and my friend to shun me; my companions have become darkness.” ESV

You can hear the Psalmist through these words saying: 'Lord please do not utterly forsake me - let me live! I beg of you! I bore enough and turn away from wrong doing! I'll praise you for this! Those forsaken in the Pit cannot!.'

Last Remarks

We now have a mediator through Jesus Christ and become part of the New Covenant with God.

One of the most important things to remember about the gospel is that God desires us to be restored to fellowship with Him through the work of Christ on the cross. The Gospel is not about escaping Hell but rather being restored back to God, discovering and learning to live a new vivifying life, and being set free from Sin.

In my book, I wrote how someone defined sin for me. It was the best and simplest definition for sin I ever heard that I could really relate too: Sin is whatever makes life ugly . We are all guilty of this. If Christ would not have demonstrated God's great love, we all would remain lost — making life all ugly. God will not let such ugliness into the new heavens and earth to come.

The message of the gospel of Christ is not about escaping Hell but rather preparing them that believe in Christ to enter into eternal life with God forever. Hell is real. The Pit is very real. However, God wants to adopt us out of and away from our fallen state of ugly making and change us into his people. He had intent long ago for a people to take care of his precious things. Adam and Eve blew this: life has become ugly ever since.

The current Hell, Sheol, Pit was designed for the devil and his followers. It was designed as a temporary place of containment until the final Judgment comes. People send themselves there. No one can cleanse themselves of their own ugliness no matter how hard they try. Only surrendering to the Lord can a person be set free from this. The message of the gospel is eloquently stated by Jesus:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed John 8:34-36, ESV

The message is one of freedom. Yet, some people choose to reject the freedom Christ offers and to remain a slave to all their ugly making and excuses. Others accept it and learn how to be free. God's love is such that it is so just as to allow a person to come into his or her own as well as warn them of dangers to come.

Love grants liberty of thought and reason. It also holds one to account as love does not force its way upon one. Love is not afriad to correct and warn and plead. If a person rejects God, God will reject them. God's kind of Love seeks to be loved freely in return. Reject such love — Love will grant you what you desire — a life all ugly without God, his love, his light.

Choose this day whom you'll surrender too! The Lord who restores and sets us free from our own desires and opinions that enslave us to remain all ugly despite all the make-up we put on to cover all our blemishes. The Lord promises new life learning to be free and restores his life back into our souls.

Or choose yourself and remain being fooled by the make-up you're enslave to put on daily that cannot hide all the ugliness 'we' all do create.

Choose...

Part Eight to be continued:

By B. W. Melvin — know as B. W. on this thread
Author of: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion
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[B. W.]

Please note I re-edited the above post and cleaned it up a bit more for clarification on 9/28/2008. Please take the time to read it again if you read in before 5pm on 9/28.

Also, the closing remarks will be dealing with answering several very tough questions regarding why an eternal hell; is an eternal hell really fair; what reason would there be for an eternal hell. I understand that it is difficult to imagine the reality of an eternal Hell but these questions do deserves an answer. I'll be working on this next post but need a little time to complete.

Our human sense of what is right and just and fair is not God's. His ways are way beyond what our minds can fully comprehend. We can gain a glimpse here and there of his ways and that is as much as I can do - just help people gain a simple glimpse; and from this it will be my prayer for the Lord to enlighten your vision more.

I would perfer to speak of the good news of Christ and the Gospel rather than on such subject matter but people do deserve answer. So I'll do what I can according to the grace God grants me to do so...
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[B. W.]

Part Eight

Questions and Objections and Introduction:

As we can see from the context of Psalms 88, that it does not support the doctrines of soul sleep and/or annihilationism. The continuity from other bible passages that directly relate to the topics contained in Psalms 88 reveals that some form of life (spirit) continues on after death. On this very thread and other threads, I previously wrote on this in detail.

For review, the orthodox Christian position states that those that reject God, a pit in Sheol awaits. In this hell such receive degrees, or levels, of just retribution. Next, for those that accept God on his terms through Christ, they'll reside in heaven to be with the Lord forever. Paul wrote that if he departed this life, he would be with the Lord (Phi 1:23). Stephen the Martyr in Acts 7:59-60 saw the Lord and prayed for him to receive his Spirit and then his body died.

Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10: “Because God did not appoint us to wrath, _but_ to [the] obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 the One having died on our behalf, so that whether we are awake [fig,. are alive] or are sleeping [fig., have died], we shall live together with Him.” ALT (Analytical-Literal Translation)

On this thread and elsewhere, I attempted to explain how that when a human being dies, then immediately come Judgment just as Hebrews 9:27 explicitly points out. This Judgment determines if one will go to the Pit (Hell, Sheol) to be held there until the final judgment when they'll be reunited with their bodies to serve out their final sentence.

For example, the current Hell serves a similar purpose that a county jail in the USA does where a person is held, notified of their crime, and charged. There they await there until a future trail date. After trial, the guilty are sent to the State or Federal Prison. In prior post here and elsewhere I wrote how the bible does teach this very same concept (Isaiah 24:17-22, Ezekiel 32:18-31, Job 26:5-6, Job 33:19-24, Luke 16:19-31, Daniel 12:1-3, Revelations 20)

We have seen, from the context and original word order that Isaiah 26:14 does not support annihilationism, or soul sleep, due to the context of verse 13 which refers to the unrighteous mentioned in verses 10 through 13. The unrighteous will inhabit the Pit, alive and cognizant, as other bible verses prove. If verse 14 did support annihilationism, or soul sleep, then it contradicts the contextual flow to verses 19-21 as well as Daniel 12:1-3. Therefore the context of this chapter along with the continuity of other scriptures disproves the claims of annihilationism, soul sleep, as well as universalism.

From Ecclesiastes 9:1-6 we have seen that these passages also do not support the claims of annihilationism and soul sleep. In verse 3 it explains that all humanity 'are' full of evil and madness within the human heart and that, for this, they go to the dead — the congregation of the shades (Proverbs 21:16). Elsewhere in the Old Testament and New it explains where such go and that is in Sheol, the Pit, Hell, Hades and they go there cognizant. After such die with such corruption in their hearts, all memory of them will cease in the land of mortal living after the passage of time.

In Ecclesiastes 3:11-22, it was shown how God fashioned human beings as eternal beings (vs11 and vs 14) and that God will judge the righteous and the wicked (vs17). That God test humanity so that they'll see that they are like beast (vs18) and that either the spiritual eternal part of a human being will either go upward to God or down into the Pit where the beast of humanity reside (vs21). Sheol is described within the bible as inside the earth. Inside the earth is where the bible tells where the pit is. To go down into the earth then refers to the current hell — holding center (Isaiah 24:22).

The claims of annihilationism, soul sleep, as well as universalism deny the context of scripture in exchange upon the proof text method where they lift scripture out of context at the expense of other scriptures that contradict their views. They change word meanings as well, all at the expense of ignoring the contextual continuity from other biblical scripture themes regarding the afterlife. They do this more out of a human centric revulsion to the idea that human beings are as bad as the bible proves unregenerated humanity to be. You can hear them often posit this argument: How dare God punish the poor ol'unregenerated for all eternity, how mean!

They use the argument that they cannot accept God as being able to punish for eternity because that would make God out as a Happy Torturer. Unfortunately, their doctrine fails to note what Psalms 74:20 reveals:

“Have respect unto the covenant: for the dark places of the earth are full of the habitations of cruelty (violence).” Psalms 74:20 - KJV

The meaning is profound and deep. It refers to all dark places of the earth, in the here and now, as well as inside the earth where the utmost cruelty resides.

Place this in the context of Matthew 25:41 where Jesus describes hell as a being a place originally fashioned for the devil and his angels. This explains why there is cruelty in the deep dark places and describes who is really doing the tormenting disproving the happy torturer argument about God. The devil and his minions are whom are doing the tormenting. They hate humanity zillions of times more than a left wing liberal could ever hate George W. Bush.

Hell is a place where eternal recompense is meted out in just degrees as Isaiah 3:11 and Galatians 6:7 reveals. This alone is enough to produce one's own personal torments. The fire of God's wrath banishes one from his presence forever, justly and fairly. This can also be symbolized in Genesis 3:24 by the flaming sword (of God's anger) which guarded the way to the tree of life.

I have been often asked: Why an eternal Hell? How could a Loving God sentence people to an eternity to suffer retribution for temporal sins? (Is sin really temporal, if left un-fixed?) Why can't God just wave his hand and cleanse everyone after they die in an afterlife salvation? I hear people say, “This is what I would do if I were God…” (note Genesis 3:5)

I heard remarks such as, “I can't serve such a God that sends anyone to hell, after all we never asked to be born, how unfair!” I have seen such walk away in smugness after this comment. From this attitude come the doctrines of annihilationism, soul sleep, Universalism, which all contort the scriptures to support each of their respective world views. In other words summed up as demanding that God serve human sensibilities because these are superior to God's.

There are answers to each of these questions, as well as a few questions I left out. Christians need to know how to answer these to both skeptics as well as be able calm fellow Christians on this matter. There are answers to these and these answers are discovered by pointing out by explaining from the bible — God. It is by looking at examples of God's Nature, Character, and Spirit and comparing these to those oft ask objections is where the answer is found. In the upcoming post, I'll attempt to begin to point out a few things about God and pray with me that the Lord will by his grace enlighten our understanding so that we'll fall in Love with such a great and awesome God!

To continue in Part Nine….

By B. W. Melvin — know as B. W. on this thread
Author of: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion
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[B. W.]

Part Nine

What -- Who Condemns God?

Job 34:16-17, "…If you have understanding, hear this; listen to what I say. 17 Shall one who hates justice govern? Will you condemn him who is righteous and mighty...”

Humanity has the tendency to condemn God who is righteous and true for not stopping evil or preventing it existence. Many condemn the Lord for not behaving human like when it comes to exercising justice, mercy, what is right, or even fairness. You hear people say things like, “I cannot, and will not, believe in God who sends any ol' poor soul to hell for an eternity how unfair and cruel! If I were God, things would be different!" (Note: The serpent in the Garden of Eden offered to humanity to be like God)

Our human sense of what is right, just, and fair is not God's. His ways are way beyond what our minds can fully comprehend. Human objections stem from not taking the time to learn of the Lord to understand his ways and neglect getting to know God. Instead many souls simply reject the God of the Bible in exchange for ones they make that support some form of human centricity.

However, by God's grace, we can gain a glimpse of his ways through the Bible. He left us a book in which to find him and who he is. You can reject this about the bible but I caution you not too. The bible is an amazing book that reveals why God does the things he does. It was His gift to Humanity so we can find the right path back to him. In the process of taking the time to read and study His word one learns of the Lord. This is what I'll attempt to do — help people gain a glimpse of the Lord in order to understand his ways. From the bible, let us look to the Lord.

It is Written

Jeremiah 9:23-24 tells us that the Lord God Almighty wants people to understand and know him:

“Thus says the LORD: "Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, 24 but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the LORD." (Jeremiah 9:23-24)

However, people rather boast in their own wise wisdom, strength, and what they can earn for themselves rather than get to know God. Why? Knowing God challenges us and at times causes one to wrestle with the Lord in many diverse ways. It is painful to lay our pride down and surrender to the Lord. So what does the bible reveal about God?

A Few Bible Verses about God:

God is all powerful — omnipotent, all knowing, and everywhere…

Job 36:22, “…Behold, God is exalted in his power; who is a teacher like him?”

Revelations 19:6, “…And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” KJV

The Bible reveals that God created all things for his own pleasure (will). In other words, God proves Himself true and that He is all He says He is.

Revelations 4:11, “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” KJV

God is stable — a Rock. All His works are perfect and all his ways prove an absolute sense of justice profound: He is Faithful and without iniquity. He just and upright, proving Him self true to Himself to the sons and daughters of humanity.

Deuteronomy 32:3-4, “For I will proclaim the name of the LORD; ascribe greatness to our God! 4 "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he."

There no unrighteousness with God:

Psalms 92:15, “…to declare that the LORD is upright; he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him."

God keeps his word:

Psalms 18:30-31, “This God--his way is perfect; the word of the LORD proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him. 31 For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?"

Psalms 33:4, “For the word of the LORD is upright, and all his work is done in faithfulness.”

Isaiah 55:11, “…so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. “

Romans 11:29, “…For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

God will not act wickedly. The Almighty does no wrong and neither will he pervert justice:

Job 34:10-12, "Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. 11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. 12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice."

He is a God of mercy and gracious, slow to anger:

Nahum 1:3, “The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked…” KJV

Also His mercy and grace is displayed to all both saint and sinner proving His absolute sense of justice true and mercy profoundly greater than what humanity has perceived.

Job 36:31, “For by these he judges peoples; he gives food in abundance.”

Matthew 5:45, “…For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”

Psalms 145:9, “The LORD is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.”

Act 14:17, “Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness."

For his people that belong to God he pardons our sins through Christ Jesus cementing his grace and mercy as true proving his kindness absolute:

Micah 7:18-19, “Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. 19 He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.”

God speaking to those that belong to him in Isaiah 30:18: “Therefore the LORD waits to be gracious to you, and therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you. For the LORD is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him."

For those that reject God, his mercy, kindness, and grace is also actually cemented as fact because He lets them remain as they are. Proving that He even respects the gift granted them of an intelligent mind without violating this by use of forceful conversion. That is just, equity, and an act of selfless love profound!

Romans 1:24-25, “Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.”

Many people use this old cliché, 'God offers a bunch of out dated restrictive do's and don'ts - so who wants that?' and thus they go about doing as they please. Do they want God to use force to make them comply? No they do not. In fact, the Lord let's them do as they please, let's them! For this, people blame God for all the wrong in the world while stealing all the credit for all the good in the world.

If God demanded by force for you to turn to him, would you listen or rebel? Such forcing disproves God as just, kind, gracious, merciful, and loving. The entire world is found guilty of taking advantage of God's own goodness for their-own personal gain. For this, He holds humanity to account, and yet, the Lord also offers freely to humanity a chance to return back to Him, be forgiven, and restored to ones rightful place with God.

He offers choice to choose this day whom you'll serve. For this many people condemn God as being unfair, unjust, unmerciful, unkind, restrictive, outdated, and in need of a makeover. Yet God let's them do their own thing. Who is really not just, restrictive, outdated, and in need of a makeover?

The Lord judges with equity all the people of the earth:

Psalms 98:9, “…before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity.”

Romans 2:2-6, “We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man--you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself--that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will render to each one according to his works…”

As you review these verses (there are more) you'll notice that God's ways are perfect, and that He exercises a judgment and justice way beyond how we determine what is Just and Right. Also note that He is fair. He makes the rain to fall on saint and sinner so both have food. He keeps His word, honors his gifts, etc and etc. So ask yourself, how then can God be absolutely just and exercise absolute justice, how will He judge all people with equity, without violating any of His characteristics found within the bible.

Would it be just to them that reject God for God to blast them into non-being? Would this not deny them the gift of life God entrusted them with? Does this not create the condition that proves that people do indeed (can) get away with sin and the effects it causes? Just think a serial killer would get off easier than compared to what he did to his victim. Is that just, right fair? Would this prove God is a God of the Living if He slew into a state of non-being?

Mark 12:27, “He is not God of the dead, but of the living…”

Why could not God just change those that reject him in the afterlife? Would this not violate what one freely desired and wanted — life without God - proven by how they lived in this mortal life? Force them into loving God whom they loved not ? Force an unwilling mind to change? Deny them the gift of reason and choice in order to force compliance?

Such persons that turned away from God have learnt sin in this mortal life. For God to allow them entrance in heaven proves that there is no true recompense — so why not keep sinning in heaven abusing God's good nature and love? What's to stop this unless God acts unjustly to change a person whose mortal life has proven they wanted nothing to do with God?

Is justice without recompense? Would that be really just? Would God unjustly violate changing an unwilling mind? Would that be Just — Fair — Right to them that reject the Lord? Yes, God is that Perfectly Just and Right - way beyond what we can fully imagine.

Job 34:11, "For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him."

Psalms 62:11-12, "Once God has spoken; twice have I heard this: that power belongs to God,12 and that to you, O Lord, belongs steadfast love. For you will render to a man according to his work."

His ways are beyond our ways. His justice is beyond how we determine what justice is!

Jeremiah 9:24, “but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the LORD."

The Lord — all his ways are perfect. Our ways are not. So why do so many decry that God is so unfair when it is in reality our ways that are not fair or truly just. Humanity finds it easier to blame God for our own abuses of His own good nature and kindness in not wiping us all off the face of the earth in complete non-existence (Genesis 6:1-10, Job 34:12-15).

He granted us all his gift of life and the responsibility to live it wisely. He granted us intelligence and reason to use in the gift of life he granted us. It sounds like to me that some would like him to renege of these gifts because that is how we would correct things. God's ways are not ours. He honors his gifts and callings. Therefore, he holds to account those that abuse his gifts, his nature, his character, his ways eternally. There is no unfairness with God! He offers all a chance to repent and return to Him in this mortal life and for this many shout, “God is so unfair, so unjust!”

Ezekiel 33:17, "Yet your people say, 'The way of the Lord is not just,' when it is their own way that is not just.”

Often people use the excuse of Hell as a reason to reject God without ever investigating this matter from God's perspective. God is absolutely just, righteous, fair, in all his ways! There is no wrong doing on God's part. He remains true to Himself proving that He is God.

I have given you enough food for thought. Selah...

To be continued in Part Ten…

(All scripture not otherwise cited above is from the ESV — English Standard Version)
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By B. W. Melvin — know as B. W. on this thread
Author of: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion

[B. W.]

To anyone choosing to read this please note that I will install the next posting soon. I am seeking the best way to covey more clearly without use of volumes of wordy words.
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[Lufia]

Waiting ....

[B. W.]

Part Ten

What of God's Ways?

Introduction:

What I am about to write is not in a style that many are used to reading. It was written in a manner to invoke thought with the intent to promote in whoever reads to think for him or herself. In this way, through posing questions, may the Lord begin to engage your reason bringing to light His truth and Glory (not mine).

Often, people base their arguments solely on what is fair to man (humanity) regarding eternal recompense. You may even have heard and read the same things as I have which pose that it would be cruel to punish human beings for eternity: That God could never allow this because He loves, or that it would be far better if God annihilates into non-being as that would be proof positive that God is merciful and kind.

Some even believe that God lets a person, after dying, slumber in death feeling nothing, thinking nothing, avoiding pain. Then God wakes them up to either annihilate them into non-being or purify them in cleansing torturing flames so they'll be ready for heaven. If one is lucky, they'll wake from peaceful slumber as a believer avoiding these consequences all together.

The crux of these points of view are summed up and easily discerned by the cry that these alternatives are fair to 'poor old human beings who cannot help but be human.' What is fair and right for God is not even addressed nor actually examined in detail. Instead this is obfuscated with pleas declaring how unfair eternal recompense would be for fallen humanity because 'God just can't do that' or 'else they won't believe in Him.'

A Necessary Review

We have seen in part Nine that God's ways are perfect. God exercises a judgment and justice way beyond how we determine what is just and right. The Lord is fair. He makes the rain to fall on saint and sinner so both have food. He keeps His word, honors his gifts, etc and etc. How can God be absolutely just and exercise absolute justice, judge all people with equity, without violating any of His characteristics revealed within the bible?

If God violates any part of who He is, then He is not God. It is not possible for an eternal God to cease to exist or deny himself. Paul reveals this in 2 Timothy 2:13 in a simple phrase that stands alone — “for God cannot deny himself.”

2 Timothy 2:13, “if we are faithless, he remains faithful -- for he cannot deny himself.” ESV

The LITV version reads: “if we are unfaithful, that One remains faithful; He is not able to deny Himself.”

The WNT version reads: "…He remains true--He cannot prove false to Himself."

So you need to ask yourself, how do the arguments posed by those holding dear to Annihilationism, Soul Sleep, and Universalism hold up to the standards of God himself? How do they compare with who He really is and is really like? Since all God's ways are perfect and without fault, would any of these arguments cause the Lord of Glory to deny His own standards of Justice? Love? Right-wise-ness? Wisdom? All Powerfulness? Mercy? Goodness? Holiness?

What happens when one begins this journey that explores who God is and is like is that they discover the need to shed human concepts about God's Love and Mercy. Many well meaning souls insert human reason into these concepts and end up missing God's ways on the matters of God's love and mercy. It may cause one to wrestle with God and have the seat of their power broken. This hurts. Human pride smolders unless erased by God's mighty hand.

It is because God loves that He made a place for the devil and his followers. It is because of His Love that He does not blast them, or portions of humanity, into non-being eternally. It is because of his great mercy that He grants them what they desire — a place of ruin. It is because of his grace that he honors choices freely made. If God would deny them this, He denies Himself. This He will not do.

Lets Begin

Let me rephrase what I wrote in last post: Would it be just to them that reject God for God to blast them into non-being? Would this not deny them the gift of life God entrusted them with? Does this not create the condition that proves that people do indeed (can) get away with sin and the effects it causes? Just think a heinous serial killer would get off easier than compared to what he did to his victim — the bliss of non-being, non-feeling, or for the Universalist they enter heaven anyways. How can justice be true if denied? God is a God of justice. If God denys justice then how can he really be just?

Is it really just, right, fair to blast someone off into non-exsitence? How would doing so prove God is a God of the Living if He slew one into a state of non-being? If God did so, He would be denying Himself as the God of the living — the living God. A Living God creates life. As He lives so does life. He placed eternity in the human heart. Whose reflection were we created in? Is God eternal?

Do not we all live, move, and have our being in him? If He removed His spirit all flesh would cease. Yet, in mercy he refrains from doing so. Why? Why did he not cash in humanity in Genesis chapter 6? To do so would cause Himself to deny Himself as true to His word and disprove His life giving nature. (Genesis 2:7, Job 34:14-15, Psalms 42:2, Isaiah 45:18, Jeremiah 10:10, Mark 12:27) Praise God He remains true to Himself - He is indeed like a Rock - stable and perfect in all His ways! ...Selah...

More to Ponder

The Universalist argument is based on measuring God's love and mercy using the standards human reason: God loves so much that everyone will eventually make it into heaven. They reason: Why could not God just change those that reject him in the afterlife, after all this would prove God to be absolutely all loving, all kind, and good to all?

However, would this not violate what people freely desire and want — life without God - proven by how they lived in this mortal life? Would this not force them into loving God whom they loved not? Would this not force an unwilling mind to change against their will? Would this not deny people the gift of reason to make choices in order to force compliance in the afterlife? How could this be proven Just?

Would this not deny an absolute sense of justice to them that wanted nothing to do with God? Allowing such into heaven would deny them what their mortal life proved beyond all reasonable doubt — living life without God. Would it be fair to let them in heaven? If you say yes — it would be fair; then, God would end up having to renege on his own words/gifts granted to humanity. God will not prove false to Himself by any means.

Tortured to Love God

Universalist claim God cleanses the sinner in the afterlife with purifying flames so they can enter heaven because God's love can't bear any state of torture. Yet they tout and proclaim that these flames hurt and are dreadful to experience and in essence are real torture to experience so as to be avoided through conversion to Christ. Such cleansing flames would then prove that God tortures the sinner until they cry uncle and say, “I love you Lord.” Does this prove God Just? Loving? Kind? When does torture produce real lasting love?

Of such cleansing as this on an eternal being would only produce resentment leading to more sin. Such a person as this in reality learns they can abuse God's good nature on an eternal never ending scale. So death entered the world through sin and stopped sin from continuing eternally. God holds a person to account in the afterlife where they'll either be sealed into sin or sealed by God and healed to be with Him. He made a place for such that desire life without him to be life without him.

In this mortal life, the Lord of Glory honors the choices made. In this mortal life is where the only true change can come justly, rightly, fairly without any violation of trust endowed to the creature. God endowed humanity with the gift of reason, of life, intelligence, and responsibility (Genesis 1:26-30, Genesis 2:15-17, Ezekiel 18:20-32, Jeremiah 32:17-19). God granting such gifts to us proves that He is fair, just, and truly perfectly righteous in all His ways.

To force compulsion in the afterlife against ones will would prove that God is not absolutely fair, just, or right in all his ways as He would do injustice to his own character by reneging on his gifts. If a person will not change in this mortal life, they will not change in the eternal as it is written:

Isaiah 26:10, “If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness he deals corruptly and does not see the majesty of the LORD.” ESV

2 Peter 2:22, “What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire." ESV

Such is how great God honors his gift of intelligence, reason, life, and dominion used responsibly that if these were left unchallenged and unchanged on earth these would be used later to corrupt heaven. Such is how Great God is that He keeps and honors his word!

God's Love verses Compulsion

God's kind of love lets people come into their-own during this mortal life. That is indeed Love profound! Love woos and pleads to return. It test and refines. However, Love continually despised and misused dispenses vengeance and wrath banishing one away from love and light forever. Choose this day who you'll serve is God's fair call. Gods' kind of Love does not enslave, it sets one free to become again what God design for us to be (John 8:34-36)…Selah…

Isaiah 1:18-20, "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. 19 If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; 20 but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be eaten by the sword; for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

So would denying the gift of reason by afterlife compulsion really prove justice? Or would it instead prove that God really does not honor His own gifts to humanity? How then could God be trusted and be found truly faithful if he denies his own gifts of endowment? So should God deny Himself and all that He is to appease human sensibilities concerning fairness? God's ways are not ours. In this mortal life he offers a choice and for this humanity condemned Him and nailed the Lord of Glory on a cross for doing good to an ungrateful humanity.

So who is really fair, just, wise, forgiving, wooing, offering a choice and granting what a soul so desires proving no injustice at all to the creature? …Selah…

Job 34:10-12, "Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. 11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

God's love makes justice just way beyond what we can fully comprehend. He paid the price for our sins and offers us freely to return to him. Reject this, in fairness you'll be judged understanding full well why you'll not be permitted into heaven. Think you'll still get in after rejecting him? God will not pervert justice. His justice grants the freedom to reject him and his great love, or accept him on his terms, this justice he will not pervert. ...Selah...

To be continued in Part Eleven….
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