Evidence for God from Science

I do not want to write a long discourse so I'll try to be brief and at the end copy 1 Corinthians 12 from the ESV at the end of this for full reference:

1 Co 12:25-27, “…that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.”

It is tragic that that the doctrine of tongues has become so divisive. Originally they were not so but now are so that the body of Christ suffers.

1 Co 12:4-6, “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.”

We see that there are varieties of gifts, service, and activities all by the same Spirit, same Lord, the same God who empowers. Besides another Trinitarian proof text here stating that God wants to empower people, we are being told God's will in all this, in verse 7 is for the common Good of the body of Christ.

1 Co 12:7, “To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.”

If then for the common good, then it will be fought against by who Paul writes about in Ephesians chapter 6 so that there will be division, strife, envy, and evil work so no common good is made known.

1 Co 12:19, “If all were a single member, where would the body be?”

Since each person is a member of the body belongs where God places them as a hand, eye, mouth, ear, etc and etc the point is that different parts of the body should avoid quarreling over gifts, service, and activities. Each part and each member of their respective part has a duty and each individual is empowered to do his/her part as the Lord so wills.

1 Co 12:18, “But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose…'

Not all have the same gifts, services, or activities…

1 Co 12:27-30, “…Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.”

Now we come to tongues. Not all will speak with tongues but what are they? 1 Corinthians 13:1 gives us a hint:

1 Co 13:1, “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels…”

There are tongues of human language. God can use these however he so wills whether it be speaking in a human language never studied or known by the speaker to others who know the language spoken in, or someone who is a linguists, or whatever involving human speech. So be it as the Lord wills it to be used.

Next languages of angels or angelic languages — unknown tongues: used as praying in the Spirit (prayer), personal edification and spiritual growth, words of knowledge and wisdom for believers, etc and etc as however the Lord so wills it to be. Point to remember is that done without love, it is a bunch of noise and division causing.

1Co 12:8-10 , “For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, :9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.”

Some people keep strife and division alive by misapplying 1 Co 13:10, “but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.” Using this verse to insinuate that the gifts have passed away. If this be true, then we have no chance to reach the common good mention in 1 Co 12.

This verse does not mean that as:

Gills Commentary says:

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come,.... When perfect knowledge of God, of Christ, and of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven shall take place; which will not in this life, but in that which is to come. So the Jews say (r) that at the resurrection, upon the reunion of the soul and body,

"the children of men shall attain to דעה שלימה, "perfect knowledge";''

which is what the apostle refers to here:

The gifts, services, and activities have not passed away but are used by the Lord to instruct us all in how to manifest his Love realistically. Henceforth, the first lesson is to expose the lack of love we have toward one another. How? By the evidence of our strife, division, pride, etc that hinders God's love from maturing in our lives to its fullest.

The state of the modern church exemplified below:

1 Co 1:10, “I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”

So what is the tongue issue exposing in each of you as well as me? What is the Lord working in you? What do each of us need to repent of so we can walk that most excellent way? May the Lord grant you and I the words of wisdom and knowledge on this …

Why aren't there more gifts active today? The problem is not with God - Maybe it is our lack of love that hinders God's Spirit to move in our lives more fully and richly? So what is the tongue issue, or the healing issue, or the gift issues, service issues, activity issues showing each of us?
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Contextual Reference quote of 1 Corinthians 12 below:

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.
1Co 12:2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
1Co 12:5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
1Co 12:6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.
1Co 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
1Co 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
1Co 12:16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
1Co 12:18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
1Co 12:19 If all were a single member, where would the body be?
1Co 12:20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
1Co 12:21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
1Co 12:22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,
1Co 12:23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
1Co 12:24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it,
1Co 12:25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
1Co 12:26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
1Co 12:30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

Coming back to this discussion. This reminds me of limescale building up on a kettle.....let me explain - I am not going mad.

God gave the Israelites 10 commandments to follow through Moses. From his time to Jesus - Human "religion" build layer upon layer of legality in the way of salvation to the point where it was a joke (like the limescale building up) Jesus came along and blasted it all away (tearing the veil in the process) - Clean kettle, nice cup of tea - start again....

Now it is happening all again - Human "religion" is building on the Limescale again - putting unecessary tasks and legalisms and conditions in front of salvation when in fact there is only one - believe in the Lord Jesus Christ atoning power in your life and the sacrifice that he made for you in washing away all our sins. Job done.

Speaking in Tongues is a big chunk of that limescale.

Silvertusk.

nice analogy

Lord Jesus Christ atoning power in your life

thats easy.

Kristoffer wrote:

Lord Jesus Christ atoning power in your life

thats easy.

If it is so easy, try it.

Rather, it is very difficult. Very, very difficult. This is why you - and most of the world - cannot do it.

FL

Why are you telling me what I am unable to do? reverse psychology right? Instead forwards psychology might work a tincy bit better, you don't want to be damning me forever to the basement of perpetual punishment do you?

I could accept this atoning power, but I would find it difficult to accept god as a real as opposed to an ideal being. My attitudes are a little bit entrenched I am afraid, so you will have to go with the flow and cut through the grain instead of across it.

Kristoffer wrote:Why are you telling me what I am unable to do? reverse psychology right? Instead forwards psychology might work a tincy bit better, you don't want to be damning me forever to the basement of perpetual punishment do you?

Well, thanks for recognizing that you are unable to accept Christ (''unwilling to'' would be more accurate.)

Kristoffer wrote:I could accept this atoning power, but [#1] I would find it difficult to accept god as a real as opposed to an ideal being. [#2] My attitudes are a little bit entrenched I am afraid, so you will have to go with the flow and cut through the grain instead of across it.

Your second sentence reveals why you are unwilling to accept God. Here they are:

1. You doubt God is real.
2. Your mind is closed.

So, what are you going to do about #2?

FL

#2 Bloom like a flower, Flowers have pretty petals. Roses have Thorns. Roses are very beautiful once they have flowered. Do you not like a good rose?

The following short video may be helpful in understanding the gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi6fIUpvZUI

God bless,
Mick

One thing, 1 Cor 12:30 "Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret?" This is using a specific greek construct for a retorical question, to which the only possible answer is no (they have another one where the only possible answer is yes). Therefore, the idea that all should, even must, speak in tongues, is shown false by the bible. The usual argument is "to be saved, you must have the Holy Spirit, you are shown to have the Holy Spirit by your speaking in tongues, therefore, you must speak in tongues". This turnes your salvation into works rightiousness, speak in tongues, and you are "saved", or at least considered "one of the in crowd", the sin of pride. Since the bible specificly says "Do all speak in tongues ?", to which the answer is no, what to do? Simple, they fake it (not knowing that it is fake). Language experts who have examined them have seen that they are not making any sounds they do not already know from the english language, in other words, they are simply babbling english nonsense syllybals.

The idea that you are shown to have the Holy Spirit by speaking in tongues is taken from the historical account of pentacost. However, that was a one off, previously spoken of beforhand in prophecy, where they spoke in known tongues during a feast day where many had streamed into Jerusalem from all over the roman empire, and who thus spoke many different tonguews. Thus, it was an effective sign to them, and many believed (and many others did not 1 Cor 14:21 ). Later, God told Peter to go to a gentile, as he was to be saved, he did, and as a sign that the gentiles were to be saved, he and his houshold spoke in tongues. A third time, the diciples were together, after having been threatened, and they prayed that they might be able to speak out with boldness. The Homly Spirit fell on them as at Pentecost, but they DID NOT speak in tongues, instead, they spoke with boldness, exactly as they had asked for, and was needed. The first time was human tongues, which fit the time, as many there could only understand them if they did speak those tongues, the second, as a sign of salvation to the gentiles, the third, not tongues as that would have been useless in that circumstance, no one would have understood them, and they did not need a sign.

Therefore, since the bible nowhere specifically says (as it would if it were true) that you MUST speak in tongues, and specifically says that all WILL NOT speak in tongues, the idea that you MUST is shown to be false, a lie, probably originating from Satan. After all, not only can he stimulate the sin of pride (*I* speak in tongues, aren't I spirtual!), he can fool many into thinking that they are saved, when actually they are not (although they may be, fake tongues isn't exactly a sin, just you being fooled). It also goes with what I call "miricleism", where people demand miricles, usually at the behest of money grubbing televangilist types who want a good show to get the dollars rolling. Since God won't do miricles when they say so, "speaking in tongues" (or "laughing in the spirit", or being 'slain in the spirit") is a good substitute, any good stage hynotist can usually get an audience to do this things by various means.

Are tongues then evil? See "1 Cor 14:39 Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 1 Cor 14:40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way." In fact, tongues is but one smaller gift, as seen here "1 Cor 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1 Cor 12:5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 1 Cor 12:6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. 1 Cor 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 1 Cor 12:8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 1 Cor 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 1 Cor 12:10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
1 Cor 12:11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." Note that last, these gifts are only given out "just as he determines", you don't get to choose, you may ask, but it is God who decides who does what. Note also that tongues appears dead last.

So what should we do? "1 Cor 12:31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way. 1 Cor 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." In short, the actual sign that the Holy Spirit is in you are "the fruits of the spirit", the first and formost of which is love. If you don't have that, you can speak in tongues all day, and when you stand in front of Jesus, he will say "Mat 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Mat 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" The bible tells you to desire the greater gifts, but does not demand them, since it is only God who decides who gets what. It DOES demand those things listed as "the fruits of the spirit", starting formost with love. if you have those (at least in part), you have the spirit, if you do not, you don't.

Therefore, Paul said "1 Cor 14:19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue." That was because Paul loved them, and wanted to help them, which could not be done with tongues. This from about 1 Cor 12:4 and on for perhaps two chapeters, seems to be dealing with the same problem many modern churches have, an unhealthy emphesis on tongues. If you read it, you will see what the real priorities are, and where tongues fit in. This has all happened before, it is nothing new.

Brilliant Post. Agree with absolutley everything you said there.

I should think that the fruits of the spirit; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control, are excellent indicators of the Holy Spirit dwelling in an individual as well.

I have never spoken in tongues that I know of. I must admit that I have raised an eyebrow in the past when hearing some folks going "shalla ba ba ba hatta laba mama llama" or something like that. I feel awful to be so cynical though.

- N

hey everybody I have posted on another thread about holy spirit baptism and tongues, but that one was much more long winded than this one. Last year I finished a very long and extensive research and truth-digging project on this very subject. I read TONS of books, several bible versions, prayed many prayers, talked to people in both camps and even studied the original languages and writings. My findings agree with the majority of posts here.
so what is the gift of tongues? The greek word translated as 'tongue' in english bibles is GLOSSOS which means language/s. when the gift of tounges is mentioned it is GLOSSOLALIA which is GLOSSOS (languages) and ELALIA (to speak) i may have that second one spelled wrong as it was a while ago when i last wrote it down . the gift was allways used in the plural with 1 exception of a specific person speaking a specific language. so for the understanding of those who wrote about it originally, it was the ability to speak multiple languages that you didnt learn in a classroom

It had 3 purposes. The main one was to bridge the language barrier set up at the tower of Babel and spread the word of God across the world. This was excercised very well at the festival of Pentecost in Acts. The second purpose was that is was a sign to nonbelivers that this new covenant of the messiah and his fledgling Church are legit! Whether showing the old Jews that they were wrong about the messiah and that his covenant is for EVERYBODY or showing doubting gentiles that, yes this is for real, it was a benefit for NONbelievers not for those already in the church body. The third purpose is the one that throws most off on a tangent. For edification of the church, which initially sounds contradictory to purpose number 2, but on further inspection, it's not. it goes hand in hand with it because edify means uplift and strengthen. When someone new is added to the church body it uplifts and stregthens it, does it not? I know that I feel awesome when we add new members to christ's church so if the ability to speak or understand a language they never learned was neccessary to get someone to believe and join, then hey, God made it happen for them.
this gift was never meant for personal use. It says that "he who speaks in a tongue ( notice it says A tongue, not THE tongue) edifies himself...." This is not supposed to be taken as a good thing. Time and time again Paul stresses that all the gifts are to be done for the benefit of all, for the congregation, for the church or for non believers. So then, when he says "he who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men, but to God..." or "he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself" he's saying that its the wrong thing to do.
I never found any true support for anything the charismatics teach or practice and therefore recently left them. what I did find is that they basically copy practices of pagan religions from around the world that date back to ancient Egypt or later. You can find them still in India, Thai buddism, Korea, Wicca, Tribal African beliefs and Haitian voodoo.

Secret,

Agree 100%. Many forget that the entire context of this section of 1 Cor. is a rebuke and correction. Paul crafted his words in a way that in one sense was to exhibit gentleness to the fragile Corinthian church. But, I think this leads many to think he is endorsing something, when in fact he is not.

If you wrote down any of the stuff you did from this project, I'd love to read.

Thanks

My mother often speaks in tongue... alone in her bedroom when she is praying. I suppose in that case, it is not self- edifinement? or however you spell that