Evidence for God from Science

Whoops - cannot post the entire response so I'll post a small portion first: Post One

Columhcille wrote:This is an interesting topic and one I've struggled with a lot in the past.

There are many names which Jesus is called by in the scriptures -Teacher, Christ, Jesus, Messiah, etc as His role on Earth is defined in different ways by different areas of scripture, which may cause confusion...

There are also many scriptures including in Genesis where Moses is transcended or Adam and eve walk with God in person, so we know that God Himself is His own distinct Entity in physical form. Just as Christ the Son is a physical being. And God created us in His image also logically tells us that we are a physical likeness to God the Father in Heaven. Etc...

First off, you stated that the bible is the final authority we must go by; therefore, let us do so.

Now what does John 4:24 state about God?

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” John 4:24 – KJV

What forum is a sprit? It is not physical is it? Remember, be true to the context of scripture of John 4 where Jesus is revealing that God cannot be physically confined to the OT temple Holy of Holy because he is a Spirit.

Also what does Hosea 11:9 say God says about himself? What of Numbers 23:19? What of Romans 1:22-23? Please read these aloud to yourself and tell us what you think these mean?

Next, Bible tells us these about God as well… God is Light…

1 John 1:5, “This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.” KJV

Also try this one out - God has feathers…

Psalms 91:4, “He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler” KJV

Do we have feathers, wings– do we glow light?

God is spirit and light; therefore, He is far different than our own physical form, is he not???

Please note: The expressions concerning feathers and wings is used as a metaphor...

The Lord himself also revealed himself in theophanies as well. In some cases as a pillar of fire, a cloud, a still quiet voice, as a messenger, a dove, etc… God can choose to appear howsoever he wants too because He is God as Jesus said – in John 4:24 - “God is a Spirit”

As God spoke of himself – Hosea 11:9

Is the word of God right or Joseph Smith?

Even the Mormon scriptures contradict themselves: Alma 22:10 – “He is a Great Spirit” and Alma 31:15 – states clearly, “thou was a Spirit, thou art a Spirit and thou wilt be a Spirit forever” This means clearly for perpetuity - time without end God was always a Spirit…

Compare this with the Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 and you have a problem… then compare with by reading Romans 1:22-23 to yourself..

Next we'll deal with your next points... God is far different than anything we can think or imagine – He is incomprehensible in his full majesty…

He does not have a physical form - He is Spirit and Light...
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Post Two continued from Above

Columhcille wrote: That being said, the LDS church supports the teaching that the three in the trinity are three separate entities..

I think where some confusion comes into play is certain areas of scripture this:

In revelation and Genesis right off the top of my head, it talks about Satan becoming the Father of Lies and deceit. Satan was a brother of Christ and a brother to us children of God. God bade them come to Him and he asked both Satan and Christ if they would save His children [we who choose to follow Him] from being lost to Him forever. Satan said he would take away our free agency and force us to follow and come back to God…

Christ on the other hand understood God's plan and that we should have Free agency to choose to love God and follow Him or to choose not to; Christ said he would never force us to do anything.

Orthodox Christianity teaches that God is One – not three separate Gods as Mormonism teaches. CRI (Christian Research Institute) defines the Christian Orthodox doctrine of the Divine Trinity like this: God is a perfectly unique and simple being, existing as one infinite Being called God. There is therefore only one God, who is called Yahweh in the Old Testament, and who reveals Himself in the persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…

The teaching that supports three separate gods (tritheism) is not found in the bible for the following reasons:

One-- The Christian Orthodox doctrine of the Divine Trinity lines up with the clear teachings from the bible as stated in Deuteronomy 33: 26, Isaiah 46:5, Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 41:4, Isaiah 45:5, 6, 18, 21, 22 that there is none Like God.

This line up with what God says about himself as well; therefore, God’s form of oneness is certainly unlike all other forms of oneness we can conceive of just as the bible record of what God says about himself states. Best way to describe God is a mystery – One God in three distinct persons of one Divine essence. This is complete accord with scripture that there is none like him.

God’s oneness must be incomprehensible to fulfill this. If you make God into any other image of oneness – you will be in violation of the principles taught in Deuteronomy 5:7-8

By your own admission – Mormonism creates God according to an image of comprehensible oneness just as Romans 1:22-23 warns not to do and Joseph Smith states in D and C 130:22 to do. Is the bible right or Joseph Smith?

More on God’s Incomprehensibility Below from CRI:

From CRI Article wrote: 13. INCOMPREHENSIBLE: God is incomprehensible, not in the sense that the concept of God is unintelligible, but in the sense that God cannot be fully and directly known by finite creatures, because of His uniqueness and His infinitude.

a. None like God (Ex. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Chr. 17:20; Psa. 86:8; 1 Kgs. 8:23; Isa. 40:18, 25; Isa 44:7; Isa 56:5, 9; Jer. 10:6-7; Micah 7:18)
b. Analogical language necessary to describe God (Ezek. 1:26-28; Rev. 1:13-16)
c. God cannot be comprehended as He really is (1 Cor. 8:2-3)
d. God can only be known as the Son reveals Him (John 1:18; Matt. 11:25-27)

This Quote from this CRI Link

Two -- When God says, there are none like him and that only He is God and no other – for God to have a father and his father have a father would prove inexpiably that God lies. This is in violation of his-own nature and character. God is not man that he should lie – God is without iniquity – perfect in all His ways.

For God to clearly state none like him as well as No other Gods formed – He means just that: Read Isaiah 43:10 please…

Three— Mormonism uses the names Elohim and Yahweh in a manner that tries to make these usages of these two names for God to denote two separate Gods. This is error. There is only one God – Yahweh. His name can and does refer to, according to context and grammar usages, to every member of the Godhead which Orthodox Christians call the Divine Trinity. For details on this read the CRI quote below.

As the below quote from CRI article posted below reveals:

From CRI Article wrote:
CRI Link

10. ONE: God is a perfectly unique and simple being, existing as one infinite Being called God. There is therefore only one God, who is called Yahweh in the Old Testament, and who reveals Himself in the persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the New Testament; thus excluding polytheism, tritheism (belief in three gods), and subordinationism (in which Christ is a lesser god subordinate to the Almighty God).
a. Only one God (Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5-7, 21-22; Zech. 14:9; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:5-6; 1 Tim. 2:5; James 2:19)
b. All other "gods" are only "so-called," (1 Cor. 8:4-6; 2 Thess. 2:4)
c. Moses was "as God," not God or divine (Ex. 4:16; 7:1)
d. Satan, idols, and the belly are all false gods (Psa. 96:4-5; 1 Cor. 10:20; 2 Cor. 4:4; Phil. 3:19)
e. Wicked judges called "gods" in irony, not to describe nature (Psa. 82:1, 6; John 10:34-36)
f. Yahweh is Elohim (Gen. 2:4; Deut. 4:35, 39; Psa. 100:3 [thus excluding the view of Mormonism that Jehovah and Elohim are distinct beings])
g. Implied by the doctrines of self-existence, transcendence, and omnipotence

Note Section f again:

f. Yahweh is Elohim (Gen. 2:4; Deut. 4:35, 39; Psa. 100:3 [thus excluding the view of Mormonism that Jehovah and Elohim are distinct beings])

Four – Jesus and Satan are not brothers and the bible refutes this. Colossians 1:16 clearly states Jesus created all things – even the angels. He created all things means precisely that = He created all things – principalities, powers. Note about angelic beings, powers, principalities see Romans 8:38, Ephesians 1:21, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 6:12, Colossians 2:10, 15

Lucifer i.e. Satan is a created angelic Cherub as Ezekiel 28:13-19 and Isaiah 14:12-15 state. Since Christ created all things, all powers, principalities, thrones, dominions, Jesus cannot be related kin to Lucifer – brothers. You have two classes mentioned – the created and the creator.

Fifth – You cannot derive from the Hebrew words that Yahweh (Jehovah) refers only to Jesus and Elohim refers only to the God the Father. Genesis 27:20 refutes this as does Exodus 3:6, 7 and Jeremiah 32:18 as well too… reveal clearly that Yahweh and Elohim are one in the same – note Deuteronomy 6:4. As does CRI article section f scriptures quoted above does too. Read these verses to yourself and tell us what you think?

Yahweh refers to the entire Godhead of the Divine Trinity as does Elohim. It is only by the context of scripture can one begin to comprehend which person of the Godhead is speaking in the OT. This comes by illumination of the Holy Spirit connecting the dots. I will not connect these for Mormons as they continue to do what Romans 1:22-23 states…

Continued below...
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Post Three continued from above

Columhcille wrote:

openminded wrote:

gooooooo B.W. you are on a roll!!

.... Reasoning from the scriptures isn't effective because anyone can put whatever spin on the scriptures just to fit their theology. ...

I don't agree with this. If we believe that the scriptures are the TRUTH and the truth is absolute, then naturally there is one meaning to the scriptures and one path that it lays before us.. Christ did not put many paths before us.. he gave us a set of rules that leads us to eternal freedom and happiness with our Father in Heaven. There is no changing those rules. They are as they have always been. Therefore Reasoning from scriptures is our ONLY WAY of finding understanding and what Truth really is.

If you want to use scripture out of context for your own good and lead people away from the Path that has been laid out before us that is on your conscience, but every one of us needs to PRAY and make sure what they believe is the Truth. READ your scriptures and study them with others to know that YOU know the truth.

Every single one of us is on a different part of our journey along the Path that Christ laid out before us and we cannot judge others for where they are at on their own path, but we can all help eachother by strengthening our own personal testimonies and by praying and by studying together and by LIVING our lives in a Christlike manner. We all have our own experiences that have led us to the point we are at. But in the end there is only ONE TRUTH and that comes from the Scriptures. if anything, the Scriptures are our best source of information and anything else is only Man Made, fulfilling man-made doctrine and completely Fallible.

You cite well that we must use the word of God as our source and then to pray about what is true. Using the word of God, the bible, is correct; however, you stated that… “ but every one of us needs to PRAY and make sure what they believe is the Truth” is not what the bible tells us to do to determine truth. Why, for doing so will set a person up for familiar spirits to deceive.

God wants to reason with us and for us to test all things (Isaiah 1:18) to uncover what the truth is. It is by the word of God we must compare and test things to uncover the truth and principles within the bible and in this I agree with you that we need to stick with the bible. But how 'did' you determine that, we who are of Orthodox Christian faith erred in our posting of scriptures here?

The bible tells us to test all things 1 Thessalonians 5:21, and to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11-12 by testing religious claims against what the scriptures tell us. Also we are to test the spirits as 1 John 4:1 says and as the injunction from Galatians 1:6-8 tells us to avoid. Mormonism leads people astray and away from the bible by reliance on the book of Mormon and its fables as well as to Pray if it is true by feeling a burning in the bosom.

I am glad to hear you believe in the absolute standards of the bible but why the book of Mormon if only the bible is absolutely necessary? The burning in the bosom thru prayer is not how one determines the truth from the bible. It is thru reason and testing so as to avoid being lead astray. The bible tells us in its absolute standards to test and reason from the bible concerning what is true and by this becoming fully persuaded to trust Christ.

Mormon doctrine adheres to twisting the meaning of what James 1:5 says about asking for wisdom. Joseph Smith uses this to have people to just pray about the book of Mormon to see if it is true and adds to the bible another book – Moroni 10:4 to justify this. Why? To advert a person away from the bible mandates to honestly reason, test, and search what the real bible really says. The bible refutes Mormon claims.

Do you need to pray about the wisdom if terrorism is wrong? Adultery? Incest? Or that Premeditated murder is wrong? We don’t need to pray about these things because the bible tells us these things are wrong thru reason and testing and ample examples. God has given his wisdom on the matter within the bible.

In fact the context of James 1:1-15 involves asking for wisdom during times of great temptation as these means to endure, repent, and overcome. It involves the, how too and what do I need to do kind of wisdom to overcome temptations and trials. It has nothing to do about becoming saved, or feeling if the book of Mormon is true or not based solely on a feeling.

If a Muslim asked you to pray if the Koran is true – would you do it? If you did and felt a burning in the bosom – would you abandon Mormonism? Feelings are not faith. Faith is not feelings. Faith involves becoming fully persuaded thru use of reason and examination. Why? Feelings lead astray. Honoring a person’s intelligence, reason, ability to examine is the just thing to do and God is perfect in his Justice. Since God is Just – He is just to us as well in engaging our reason and not our feelings. Please read these and let us know what they tell you - Deuteronomy 32:4, Isaiah 1:18, Proverbs 19:2, and Isaiah 28:16

Now with this before you – Joseph Smith stated in Doctrine and Covenants 130:22, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us…”

The bible, as you stated must absolutely be the arbiter of truth states in Romans 1:22-23, “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things…” KJV

Did not Joseph Smith do what Romans 1:22-23 states?

Bible says about God:

John 4:24, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." KJV

1 John 1:5, "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all". KJV

You see, we must be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11-12, "…These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few..." KJV

Isaiah 1:18, “Come now, let us reason together, says Yahweh…”
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Isaiah 1:18, “Come now, let us reason together, says Yahweh…”

Yea I agree with Yahweh.
I'm having some discussion here with a couple of Mormons doing the neighborhood rounds, and have read a little of their book.
Seems to be a very good novel but sadly lacks the true language of the ancient biblical scribes who wrote in a unique language of symbolism and allegory. Sadly also fundamentalist / orthodox Christians are also unable to comprehend the secretes of the scriptures that Yeshua shared with his disciples. Seems also that one or two of Yeshua's disciples moved away from Yeshua's teachings but this was maybe foreseen and leads to the New Jerusalem of understanding coming down from Heaven as revealed to John. Yea I believe it's time for a New Jerusalem.
As to the trinity, hmmm ....I like to think of God as the spirit of light, of fire, of thought even being the energy or creator of all the infinite energies or foundation of Creation/s.
The Son as being the messenger of the Holy Spirit of mankind and perhaps the devil being the messenger of the unholy spirit of mankind. When one accepts the messenger one accepts the Holy Spirit.
I also believe that heaven is a place on earth as also hell is. And that which we make on earth is made in Heaven. Heaven being the spiritual plane of earth and sadly not the Utopia we long for. We are the hands of God or that part of God, the holy spirit, and it is incumbent upon us to fashion our Utopia based upon the New Jerusalem of understanding.

ManFromHeaven wrote:

Isaiah 1:18, “Come now, let us reason together, says Yahweh…”

Yea I agree with Yahweh.

I'm having some discussion here with a couple of Mormons doing the neighborhood rounds, and have read a little of their book.

Seems to be a very good novel but sadly lacks the true language of the ancient biblical scribes who wrote in a unique language of symbolism and allegory. Sadly also fundamentalist / orthodox Christians are also unable to comprehend the secretes of the scriptures that Yeshua shared with his disciples. Seems also that one or two of Yeshua's disciples moved away from Yeshua's teachings but this was maybe foreseen and leads to the New Jerusalem of understanding coming down from Heaven as revealed to John. Yea I believe it's time for a New Jerusalem.

As to the trinity, hmmm ....I like to think of God as the spirit of light, of fire, of thought even being the energy or creator of all the infinite energies or foundation of Creation/s.The Son as being the messenger of the Holy Spirit of mankind and perhaps the devil being the messenger of the unholy spirit of mankind. When one accepts the messenger one accepts the Holy Spirit.

I also believe that heaven is a place on earth as also hell is. And that which we make on earth is made in Heaven. Heaven being the spiritual plane of earth and sadly not the Utopia we long for. We are the hands of God or that part of God, the holy spirit, and it is incumbent upon us to fashion our Utopia based upon the New Jerusalem of understanding.

Hi ManfromHeaven,

I am not sure I am understanding what you are saying regarding fashioning a Utopia here on earth or what you mean by heaven being on earth, etc...?

Can you explan this better??? Thanks
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I also believe that heaven is a place on earth as also hell is. And that which we make on earth is made in Heaven. Heaven being the spiritual plane of earth and sadly not the Utopia we long for. We are the hands of God or that part of God, the holy spirit, and it is incumbent upon us to fashion our Utopia based upon the New Jerusalem of understanding.

That smiley is the, I'm confused symbol. And I sincerely am. Perhaps you can clarify what you are trying to say here.
You totally lost me here. Is this something you have arrived at by a particular doctrine, or are you just making this up in your own mind? And yes, that is a serious question.

I believe all mans reasoning is concluded within our minds with objective learning from the world around us, and past reasoning from others. True I have a good imagination and am able to make reasonable understandings to satisfy my personal beliefs. As to doctrine; This is often contrived to suit and dress the many different churches. I do not hold store of any other church doctrine. I have not been indoctrinated!
I wonder where you have seen Heaven? or believe Heaven to be. Heaven can only be seen in the minds eye!He who cannot see is spiritually blind. Yeshua healed a man born blind by covering mud over his eyes so that he could not see, for heaven is a place to imagine within your mind and is not yet seen here on earth.

Yeshua heals a man born blind. John 9.5; “While I am in the world I am the light for the world.” What I mean is that you cannot see in the dark, I am the light in your minds eye. After he had said this, Yeshua spat on the ground and made some mud with the spittle; he then rubbed the mud over the eye‘s of the man so he could not see, and told him, “Go wash your face in the pool of Siloam.” [Meaning sent] So the man went, washed his face and came back seeing. For now he could see with his minds eye. Siloam is the pool of knowledge [sent] or rained down from Heaven. This also is the water upon which I walk!

On spiritual blindness Yeshua said; John 9.39; “I come to this world to judge, so that the blind should see, and those who see should become blind.” Some Pharisees, who were there with him, heard him say this and asked him, “You don’t mean that we are blind too.” Yeshua answered, “If you were blind, then you would not be guilty; but since you say, “We can see,” that means that you are still guilty.” Oh I think the smiley is a grimace and look away in disbelief! perhaps like when two blokes look to one another to support and confirm their opinion that... This guy is a nutter!

To be more explicit in regards to Heaven; I believe that Heaven is the spiritual energy plane of Gods creation and mirrors our physical or light energy plane here on Earth and all creation. I also believe; that which we make on earth shall be made in Heaven! We therefore must make Heaven a place on Earth. Prayer alone is like wishful thinking without getting off your butt to make the changes come about.

Like Yeshua; I have an innate gift to understand the language of symbolism and allegory. This understanding does however require mindful thought and contemplation, perhaps even a small degree of second reasoning.


“For to him who has will more be given,” Yeshua told them, “and he will have great plenty; but from him who has not, even the little he has will be taken away...

Again - not sure if I understand you. You maybe someone trained in Jewish thought to look for signs (language of symbolism and allegory) so in order to respond, I need to know what you are trying to say. about Heaven and Hell on earth. If in the language of symbolism and allegory, then yes, I can see your point - but if heaven and all only exist on earth - then you are not reading the bible correctly concerning these two plains...

So can you clarify?

Thanks
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B.W.
No certainly not trained (indoctrinated!) as previously stated. May I ask again where Heaven is according to your understanding.
From my understanding (what I like to believe) is that Heaven is within the spiritual realm of energy planes. Earth is in the physical realm or light energy plane. Both Heaven and Earth co-exist simultaneously so; That which is made on earth is made in Heaven, and that which is desired in Heaven, needs be made upon earth.

Certainly also there is the spiritual world or the world of faith/belief. (Rev 21; Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had vanished, and there was no longer any sea.) I believe this revelation relates not to our good old physical earth, but rather to the faith/belief of earths people. And the sea or oceans of mankind's prior understanding is no more. Then; (Rev 21:2; I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,...) I believe this is the new city of faith/belief that within, one spiritually abides.

No worries; Yeshua healed a man with a paralysed right arm (The arm of God), who was in a spiritual hole and unable to reach out to God. The teaching of Jesus healed the man with the crippled arm, and when asked by the Pharisees why he worked on the Sabbath Jesus replied “If one of your sheep had fallen into a hole would you not help that sheep out of the hole?”

But we seem to digress; This is perhaps not in keeping with this forum thread. Mormons / Trinity.
Perhaps I shall post a new topic; Hidden meanings revealed, starting at Matt 1.
I would be interested to understand your reasoning as to why Matthew tells us Matt 1:17, (There were thus fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David until the deportation to Babylon, and fourteen from the deportation until the Messiah.)

ManFromHeaven wrote:

Isaiah 1:18, “Come now, let us reason together, says Yahweh…”

Yea I agree with Yahweh.
I'm having some discussion here with a couple of Mormons doing the neighborhood rounds, and have read a little of their book.
Seems to be a very good novel but sadly lacks the true language of the ancient biblical scribes who wrote in a unique language of symbolism and allegory. Sadly also fundamentalist / orthodox Christians are also unable to comprehend the secretes of the scriptures that Yeshua shared with his disciples. Seems also that one or two of Yeshua's disciples moved away from Yeshua's teachings but this was maybe foreseen and leads to the New Jerusalem of understanding coming down from Heaven as revealed to John. Yea I believe it's time for a New Jerusalem.
As to the trinity, hmmm ....I like to think of God as the spirit of light, of fire, of thought even being the energy or creator of all the infinite energies or foundation of Creation/s.
The Son as being the messenger of the Holy Spirit of mankind and perhaps the devil being the messenger of the unholy spirit of mankind. When one accepts the messenger one accepts the Holy Spirit.
I also believe that heaven is a place on earth as also hell is. And that which we make on earth is made in Heaven. Heaven being the spiritual plane of earth and sadly not the Utopia we long for. We are the hands of God or that part of God, the holy spirit, and it is incumbent upon us to fashion our Utopia based upon the New Jerusalem of understanding.

I think Ken Ham is wrong. Are you Willis poster boy? or just a cryptic messenger. I'm talking about understanding scripture. Are you aware that Yeshua came with a sword! to divide fathers and sons. That he asked his disciple to bring with him a sword, with which the disciple cut off the High Priests slave's ear! Do you think this sword is a real sword? Do you think the New Jerusalem city is a real physical city coming down from Heaven? Do you think a man literally walked on water? Do you know the meaning of turning water into wine, healing the blind, the dead, and the lepers. Do you understand the miracle of Jonah and what Yeshua means when he said " How evil the people are of this day that they expect a sign in the sky to show Gods approval." To understand the the miracle of Jonah you must first understand the meaning of the great fish(whale) in which Jonah was in prayer for three days. Here is a clue; After Yeshua fed the hungry gathering with bread and fish, he gave the meaning of the bread to his disciples. The bread is the mana from Heaven. Cast your line into the lake of knowledge and you shall find a gold coin in the mouth the first fish you catch. The gold coin will pay for your temple tax's. Pray to God.

MOH,
thanks for clearing that up.

ManFromHeaven wrote:B.W.
No certainly not trained (indoctrinated!) as previously stated. May I ask again where Heaven is according to your understanding.
From my understanding (what I like to believe) is that Heaven is within the spiritual realm of energy planes. Earth is in the physical realm or light energy plane. Both Heaven and Earth co-exist simultaneously so; That which is made on earth is made in Heaven, and that which is desired in Heaven, needs be made upon earth.

Certainly also there is the spiritual world or the world of faith/belief. (Rev 21; Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had vanished, and there was no longer any sea.) I believe this revelation relates not to our good old physical earth, but rather to the faith/belief of earths people. And the sea or oceans of mankind's prior understanding is no more. Then; (Rev 21:2; I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,...) I believe this is the new city of faith/belief that within, one spiritually abides.

No worries; Yeshua healed a man with a paralysed right arm (The arm of God), who was in a spiritual hole and unable to reach out to God. The teaching of Jesus healed the man with the crippled arm, and when asked by the Pharisees why he worked on the Sabbath Jesus replied “If one of your sheep had fallen into a hole would you not help that sheep out of the hole?”

But we seem to digress; This is perhaps not in keeping with this forum thread. Mormons / Trinity.
Perhaps I shall post a new topic; Hidden meanings revealed, starting at Matt 1.
I would be interested to understand your reasoning as to why Matthew tells us Matt 1:17, (There were thus fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David until the deportation to Babylon, and fourteen from the deportation until the Messiah.)

Before I answer you, please let me know where you came up with that Heaven is within the spiritual realm of energy planes etc and etc...

To be able to answer you, need to know where you are coming from. Since this is a thread that involves Mormonism - then I'll asume you are speaking of' 'Higher Reasoning' or however it is called in Mormonism. But I do not want to wrongly asume and then go in a direction you are not. So help us out a bit.

Thanks
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To quote B.W. "To be able to answer you, need to know where you are coming from. Since this is a thread that involves Mormonism - then I'll asume you are speaking of' 'Higher Reasoning' or however it is called in Mormonism. But I do not want to wrongly asume and then go in a direction you are not. So help us out a bit."

Well like I said "What I like to think" and which also fits comfortably with my perception which I happily made up all by myself! Not that I would call it higher reasoning for there is no scientific reasoning other than perhaps science has found energies within energies like dark matter and a theory of dark energy. I think I would rather have a delusional (perhaps) belief that with which I can find a small amount of reasonable understanding than just blind faith with no reasoning that Heaven is a literal other world or place of being to which one hopes / prays / has faith. I understand that no person has seen God in the literal sense of meaning, and God does reside in Heaven, so I guess no person has seen Heaven in the literal form. Only he (Yeshua) whom the spirit of God descended upon in bodily form as symbolized by the dove has seen the nature of God and the nature of Heaven. I suppose many prefer a literal interpretation of all things relating to Christ and scripture, including the Mormon Church in their own unique way, which is enticing to think we become Gods ourselves Perhaps I am a God of my own creation If I were a Mormon that is. I'm sure however that Joseph's intent was noble in creating a faith belonging to Americans in the aftermath of much despair from the revolution period. Ma hummed also created unity form tribal warfare. Unfortunately religion also becomes somewhat tribal with many churches holding differing beliefs and political influences perhaps.
Now back to; where is your heaven? and would you like to start a discussion on New Testament hidden meaning / interpretation beginning from Matthew 1. Why are we told and what is the significance of the three periods of fourteen generations? I have an answer but would like to know your understanding. Though to be totally honest I intend to trip you up with knowledge that you may not be aware of Perhaps you believe that Matthew was just creating a symmetry of numbers.
Anyway thanks for the opportunity to express my view's; I thought perhaps I may be a little off base with main stream belief and perhaps a unwanted spice to the dinner table of orthodoxy.

Hi ManFromHeaven and anyone else following this. The current topic has moved away from Mormonism to more questions that do not pertain to Mormonism.

I am moving the topic of this post off the Mormon Vehemently deny the Trinity Thread to begin a new topic in a more appropriate place titled Where is Heaven

Please see link below and respond...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =3&t=34665

If a reader or poster has more to say concerning Mormonism please continue posting.

Thanks you!
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