Evidence for God from Science

jlay wrote:

So it is possible for a Jew, thru God’s divine intervention, come to saving faith in Christ, through Grace by reading the OT.

Can they do that and deny Christ at the same time? I think not. John 3:18

I would think if they deny Christ, then no they are not saved... However, what we are talking about here is a blindness.. Romans 11:25. So... It is possible that right now God is "gifting" grace to them for now Romans 11:5. That is until they realize the fullness of the Trinity. After that, choice time..

jlay wrote:So, are we talking about an issue of revelation here? So we even understand the Jewish faith today? There is a lot of variety. It is not the same as it was in the 1st century. Is a modern Jew even looking at the OT with the same authority as we do? A lot more tradition has crept in. So, if a Jew has knowingly rejected the revelation of Jesus Christ, how can we attribute hope to them?

I think we are to understand Judaism under the cloak of Christ. That is the Trinity. Realizing that our brothers are blinded for now, but will come into the fullness of the grace in due time.

On another note, I too have been teaming up with certain messianic groups and have been learning a tremendous amount more about my Christian faith. I'm really starting to see how their teachings intertwine. I think we often forget that Jesus was Jewish..

Please note that not all Jews are Zionists nor are all Christians Zionists. There are small pockets of Jews that reject it, the Gentiles on the other hand are more numerous. What I see here is a huge collision coming. Possibly soon between the non-Zionists and pro-Zionists parties. More fulfillment of Revelation is coming.

It think a line has been drawn in the sand.. Those accepting it, and those opposing it. I really think this is going to explode.

Gman wrote: On another note, I too have been teaming up with certain messianic groups and have been learning a tremendous amount more about my Christian faith. I'm really starting to see how their teachings intertwine. I think we often forget that Jesus was Jewish..

Please note that not all Jews are Zionists nor are all Christians Zionists. There are small pockets of Jews that reject it, the Gentiles on the other hand are more numerous. What I see here is a huge collision coming. Possibly soon between the non-Zionists and pro-Zionists parties. More fulfillment of Revelation is coming. I think a line has been drawn in the sand.. Those accepting it, and those opposing it. I really think this is going to explode.

One another aside note about the line in the sand thing that comes from John 8:6 -


Did you not know that Jesus was inside the temple area - John 8:2c?

The temple mount where Jesus was had stone floors. According to the rules of the temple, these stones would have been cleaned.

Then John 8:3, 4, 5 happened...

Then in...

John 8:6, "This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear." NKJV

Jesus wrote in Stone with his finger and twice too John 8:8...

Interesting...
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Gman wrote:...I think we are to understand Judaism under the cloak of Christ. That is the Trinity. Realizing that our brothers are blinded for now, but will come into the fullness of the grace in due time.

On another note, I too have been teaming up with certain messianic groups and have been learning a tremendous amount more about my Christian faith. I'm really starting to see how their teachings intertwine. I think we often forget that Jesus was Jewish..

Please note that not all Jews are Zionists nor are all Christians Zionists. There are small pockets of Jews that reject it, the Gentiles on the other hand are more numerous. What I see here is a huge collision coming. Possibly soon between the non-Zionists and pro-Zionists parties. More fulfillment of Revelation is coming.

It think a line has been drawn in the sand.. Those accepting it, and those opposing it. I really think this is going to explode.

The Old Testament is the most Orthodoxly sound Trinitarian set writings ever written! Sadly, due to Christian oppression of the Jews around 100 AD onward, promoted Traditional Rabbinic Jewish scholars became hostile to Christian doctrine and set forth standards to combat the Christian orthodox doctrine of Trinity within the OT. This is a left over from those in the 40 to 135 AD era who rejected Christ as well.

Add to this, the future oppression of the Jews, all helped to cement their ideas into dogma. It is these standards that crept into our modern English translations of the OT so that through the use of LORD, God, Lord, LORD of HOST, God Most High, etc, in English, we miss the richness of discovering the preincarnate Christ in the text. We can however identify the Holy Spirit often in the text.

So when a Jew comes to the Messiah, he is unhardened and see’s the truth of who Christ is and, gets happy, excited, about the Lord Jesus Christ and comes to a richer understanding than most gentile Believers of the bible and how it points to Christ: Amazing thing to see and hear. Jews can come to Christ by reading the OT alone, thru divine intervention and awakening, it has happened, or thru the gospel message they see and hear.

Next, we as gentile believers must realize that Paul mentions in Romans 11, that the fullness of the Gentiles will come to an end, traditional Jews are only partially blind – not fully. They were only persecutors of the first century Church for a very short time. Paul was once one who persecuted Christians; therefore, his phrase ‘enemies’ fits that era, after that, they became ‘hostile’ because of Christian’s misusing Paul’s writings to justify go after the Jews and thus created a HUGE WALL between two quarreling brothers. Two wrongs do not make a right.

The bible is plain in describing when and how the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled and the first things that would mark this, is the 2nd regathering of the Jewish people back to the land God swore to their fathers. This has happened. The rest will unfold as it will and written.

This reminds me of another message that can come from the parable of the prodigal son. The Jewish people wreaklessly spent their inheritance – come back to their senses and return to the Lord. We as the older son (Eph 1:4c), must not hold our nostrils in the air when they begin to return.

Luke 15:31, 32c, "And he said to him, 'Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.' "

Peoples erring doctrines and opinions will not stop God from doing his will, from rejoining all straying peoples back to himself and getting rid of all those that reject him, casting such far from his presence. Amen.
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B. W. wrote:
The Old Testament is the most Orthodoxly sound Trinitarian set writings ever written! Sadly, due to Christian oppression of the Jews around 100 AD onward, promoted Traditional Rabbinic Jewish scholars became hostile to Christian doctrine and set forth standards to combat the Christian orthodox doctrine of Trinity within the OT. This is a left over from those in the 40 to 135 AD era who rejected Christ as well.

Yes antisemitism as we know it today... It's no wonder why it turned off so many Jews.

Add to this, the future oppression of the Jews, all helped to cement their ideas into dogma. It is these standards that crept into our modern English translations of the OT so that through the use of LORD, God, Lord, LORD of HOST, God Most High, etc, in English, we miss the richness of discovering the preincarnate Christ in the text. We can however identify the Holy Spirit often in the text.

So when a Jew comes to the Messiah, he is unhardened and see’s the truth of who Chris is and, gets happy, excited, about the Lord Jesus Christ and comes to a richer understanding than most gentile Believers of the bible and how it points to Christ: Amazing thing to see and hear. Jews can come to Christ by reading the OT alone, thru divine intervention and awakening, it has happened, or thru the gospel message they see and hear.

Next, we as gentile believers must realize that Paul mentions in Romans 11, that the fullness of the Gentiles will come to an end, traditional Jews are only partially blind – not fully. They were only persecutors of the first century Church for a very short time. Paul was once one who persecuted Christians; therefore, his phrase ‘enemies’ fits that era, after that, they became ‘hostile’ because of Christian’s misusing Paul’s writings to justify go after the Jews and thus created a HUGE WALL between two quarreling brothers. Two wrongs do not make a right.

The bible is plain in describing when and how the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled and the first things that would mark this, is the 2nd regathering of the Jewish people back to the land God swore to their fathers. This has happened. The rest will unfold as it will and written.

This is absolute music to my ears Bryan... What you wrote here. This also gives us a chance to try and rectify the problem between the Jews and we gentiles.. The way I see it, if we (with God) can merge these two groups together we will have a MUCH stronger tree. Imagine that.. A tree with Jewish roots and Christian branches. Try and topple that one over... Nobody messes with the Jews and get's away with it.

I'm SO excited!!!! And I like missions from God.

This reminds me of another message that can come from the parable of the prodigal son. The Jewish people wreaklessly spent their inheritance – come back to their senses and return to the Lord. We as the older son (Eph 1:4c), must not hold our nostrils in the air when they begin to return.

Luke 15:31, 32c, "And he said to him, 'Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.' "

Peoples erring doctrines and opinions will not stop God from doing his will, from rejoining all straying peoples back to himself and getting rid of all those that reject him, casting such far from his presence. Amen.
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Yes, yes... I see it too. However, I always saw the righteous son as being the Jew and the prodigal son as being the gentile.. But I see your point.

Also I can't help to remember this verse in Matthew.

Matthew 18:20 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. That is Jew and Gentile in the Trinity.

Gman wrote:

This reminds me of another message that can come from the parable of the prodigal son. The Jewish people wreaklessly spent their inheritance – come back to their senses and return to the Lord. We as the older son (Eph 1:4c), must not hold our nostrils in the air when they begin to return.

Luke 15:31, 32c, "And he said to him, 'Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.' "

Peoples erring doctrines and opinions will not stop God from doing his will, from rejoining all straying peoples back to himself and getting rid of all those that reject him, casting such far from his presence. Amen.

Yes, yes... I see it too. However, I always saw the righteous son as being the Jew and the prodigal son as being the gentile.. But I see your point...

Ahhh – Question Time:

Were Adam and Eve Jewish?

Was Abram in UR a Jew first or a gentile first?

Did God make a specific nation from amongst whom?

Therefore technically the gentiles can be one son, the older, and the youngest, the Jews. Since these refer to having the same Father, both are technically what Eph 1:4 states as predestined and the older was first, then the newest came thru Abram later. Remember these are members of the same household mention in the text. Not all Gentiles or Jews are members of this household. In the example of the prodigal son, it appears to be giving examples of all believers in Christ, called out … to live with the Lord forever. Hence Gentile Believers, older son, and the younger, Jewish believers become one in Christ in God’s household.

That can be one out of many lessons that can be derived from this parable…not the only one. God’s inspired word works many ways and answers many questions…
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B. W. wrote:
That can be one out of many lessons that can be derived from this parable…not the only one. God’s inspired word works many ways and answers many questions…
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I'm digging it...

There is a verse in the Bible.. Can't seem to find it. It's about when two witnesses come together it makes a legitimate witness or something. Think it's in the OT somewhere..

Matthew 18:15-17?

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And...Deut 19:15 as well...

"One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established." NKJV
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B. W. wrote:+
And...Deut 19:15 as well...

"One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established." NKJV
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Yeah.. That's it.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. That is the Jew and Gentile coming together to produce the "one" man. Hey it takes a male and a female to make "one" too...