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Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:29 am
by DannyM
In Ephesians 1 Paul appears to be talking of himself and the others who were undoubtedly chosen. Until verse 13 when Paul then appears to turn to the Ephesians:
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory..
Paul is clearly hinting that the Ephesians, having believed, were saved.
At this moment I'm seeing predestination as being a predetermined provision in Christ that is open to us all.
Any thoughts? Am I way off base?
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:46 am
by Canuckster1127
That's a viable explanation DannyM. Calvinists generally don't accept it because they tie the Sovereignty of God to the formula and conclude that God can't be passive in this regard.
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:15 pm
by DannyM
Canuckster1127 wrote:That's a viable explanation DannyM. Calvinists generally don't accept it because they tie the Sovereignty of God to the formula and conclude that God can't be passive in this regard.
Okay thanks Bart.
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:47 pm
by puritan lad
DannyM wrote:In Ephesians 1 Paul appears to be talking of himself and the others who were undoubtedly chosen. Until verse 13 when Paul then appears to turn to the Ephesians:
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory..
Paul is clearly hinting that the Ephesians, having believed, were saved.
At this moment I'm seeing predestination as being a predetermined provision in Christ that is open to us all.
Any thoughts? Am I way off base?
You are way off base. God predestines people, not an "open" provision (which again would not be predestination),
He predestined us to adoption as sons, not contigent upon belief.
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:22 pm
by Canuckster1127
puritan lad wrote:DannyM wrote:In Ephesians 1 Paul appears to be talking of himself and the others who were undoubtedly chosen. Until verse 13 when Paul then appears to turn to the Ephesians:
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory..
Paul is clearly hinting that the Ephesians, having believed, were saved.
At this moment I'm seeing predestination as being a predetermined provision in Christ that is open to us all.
Any thoughts? Am I way off base?
You are way off base. God predestines people, not an "open" provision (which again would not be predestination),
He predestined us to adoption as sons, not contigent upon belief.
That illustrates well what Calvinism claims predestination means. However, many believe, that the predestination spoken of here is not individuals but rather the character of those who are saved.
One can and many do believe in predestination without putting it into the framework that Calvinism forces it into.
When you look at the whole counsel of Scripture without highlighting and focusing upon those passages favored by Calvinism, you have to reconcile that Scripture also says that God doesn't will that any should perish Tit 2:11; 1 Ti 2:3-4; 2 Pe 3:9.
If you apply the same sovereignty rationale to those verses that Calvinists do to Predestination (confusing foreknowledge and active planning when God seems to be weaving a tapestry of sorts incorporating the decisions He knows will be made, but without actively making those decisions Himself by a purposeful decision on His part to allow men's decision) then you would have to arrive at a conclusion of Universalism in some form. In fact, Ultimate or Universal Reconciliation is very similar in structure to what Calvinists do with these verses here.
Predestination is a Biblical Concept in the context that the Bible presents it. Calvinism imposes a definition and meaning of the word from sources outside the text and this is necessary to meet the needs of the System which again draws primarily upon a concept of determinism from a source of Greek Philosophy. That's my opinion anyway. I respect that PL and Calvinists in general disagree with that, but I make, and neither should anyone else feel constrained to make any apology for viewing it otherwise.
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:11 am
by DannyM
puritan lad wrote:DannyM wrote:In Ephesians 1 Paul appears to be talking of himself and the others who were undoubtedly chosen. Until verse 13 when Paul then appears to turn to the Ephesians:
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory..
Paul is clearly hinting that the Ephesians, having believed, were saved.
At this moment I'm seeing predestination as being a predetermined provision in Christ that is open to us all.
Any thoughts? Am I way off base?
You are way off base. God predestines people, not an "open" provision (which again would not be predestination),
He predestined us to adoption as sons, not contigent upon belief.
I rather expected you to disagree with my statement about a provision in Christ. But what do you do with those passages wich clearly teach belief as bringing justification? I can't see a way round those 'universal' passages; I
can see a way round the predestination passages.
Again, no dogma here - I'm just following the scriptures.
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:23 am
by puritan lad
We are justified "by" faith, not "because of" faith. Faith is the means of our justification, not the cause. Since faith itself is a gift of God, we are still back to unconditional election.
Again, a "predestination" that is contingent is, by definition, not predestination,
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:39 am
by Canuckster1127
Whose definition?
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:03 am
by jlay
We are justified "by" faith, not "because of" faith. Faith is the means of our justification, not the cause. Since faith itself is a gift of God, we are still back to unconditional election.
This follows from Eph 2:8-9
However it doesn't grammatically follow in this verse that faith is the gift. Salvation is the gift. It is by God's grace that it is offered, and through the faith/belief/trust in God's provision that it is received.
The Calvinists equates faith to a pre-programmed trait, implanted by God.
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:41 am
by puritan lad
How about Merriam-Webster? I would suggest this definition is as good as any.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... 1297088776
transitive verb
to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand; especially
If that isn't good enough, we have God's own description of his work.
"remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it." (Isaiah 46:9-11)
God does nothing based on "contingency", but He has already declared the end from the beginning. No event in the history of the universe has taken place outside of what God has declared to be His "determinate counsel". In fact, by his own counsel,
"The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations." (Psalms 33:10-11)
That is the definition of "predestination". We cannot simply redefine certain words just to try an establish some sort of ambiguity concerning the matter. I would suggest that the term is really quit simple to understand. We just don't seem to like it very much, thus the need for ambiguity. "Predestination" and "Contingency" are polar opposites. You cannot have "contingent predestination" any more than you can have "cold heat" or "dry moisture".
jlay wrote:This follows from Eph 2:8-9
However it doesn't grammatically follow in this verse that faith is the gift. Salvation is the gift. It is by God's grace that it is offered, and through the faith/belief/trust in God's provision that it is received.
Not true. Grammatically, this verse establishes that faith is a gift from God, as will be proven shortly.
In the meantime, I have asked this question before and still haven't received an answer. Where does faith come from? How does a person obtain saving faith?
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:12 am
by DannyM
puritan lad wrote:We are justified "by" faith, not "because of" faith. Faith is the means of our justification, not the cause. Since faith itself is a gift of God, we are still back to unconditional election.
Again, a "predestination" that is contingent is, by definition, not predestination,
But again, PL, what about verses 13-14 of Ephesians 1?
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory..
Or Romans 4:5 -
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Just two examples of a belief/trust in God resulting in salvation/righteousness.
What am I to do with these scriptures, PL?
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:35 am
by puritan lad
Danny,
The answer to you question can be found in what you quoted from me. As far as whether or not one can rightly use Ephesians 2:8-9 to teach that faith is a gift from God, there is a great treatment of the passage at
http://timmybrister.com/2007/08/08/the- ... esponse-3/
"...what is the exegetical tradition of Ephesians 2:8a?
According to Dr. Daniel Wallace, there have been four exegetical options for the antecedent of the demonstrative pronoun, tou/to. The standard interpretations include:
1.“Grace” as antecedent
2.“Faith” as antecedent
3.The concept of grace-by-faith salvation as antecedent
4.kai. tou/to to having an adverbial force with no antecedent (“and especially”)
Wallace rules out the first and section option because tou/to is neuter while ca,riti and pi,steuwj are feminine. He notes, “On a grammatical level, then, it is doubtful that either “faith” or “grace” is the antecedent of tou/to.”
Rather, Wallace argues that the more plausible is the third view, viz., that tou/to refers to the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation. The neuter of ou-toj is routinely used to refer to a phrase or clause. In such cases, the thing referred to is not a specific noun or substantive. The singular is used to refer both to an antecedent and a postcedent on a regular basis, while the plural is almost exclusively shut up to retrospective uses. Certain formulaic phrases are often employed, such as di.a tou/to, referring back to the previous argument (cf. Matt. 6:25; 12:27; Mark 6:14; Luke 11:19; Rom. 1:26; Heb. 1:9), or meta. tau/ta referring to the previous events (Luke 17:8; John 5:1; 21:1; Acts 13:20; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 4:1).
What we see from Wallace’s analysis of Eph. 2:8, there is good reason to believe that there has not been a “strong exegetical tradition” to argue that faith is not a grace gift. Wallace rules out the possibility that option one and two that “this” refers to either grace or faith exclusively. Rather, “this” is the conceptual antecedent to the entire preceding clause that leads to the interpretation that both grace and faith are gifts from God.
A second exegetical point worth considering is discourse analysis and the role of prepositions in discovering the surface structure and deep structure of the biblical text. In his semantic study of Ephesians 2:8a, Richard Young argues that “the relational concepts (“by” and “through”) tie the prepositions together,” further confirming the notion that this construction is to be understood as a unit and not individual parts.
John MacArthur, in his commentary on Ephesians, writes, “Our response in salvation is faith, but even that is not of ourselves [but is] the gift of God. Faith is nothing that we do in our own power or by our own resources. In the first place we do not have the adequate power or resources. More than that, God would not want us to rely on them even if we had them. Otherwise salvation would be in part by our own works, and we would have some ground to boast in ourselves. Paul intends to emphasize that even faith is not from us apart from God’s giving it.” As the text reveals, God’s plan in salvation is directed to give all the glory to God (“that no one should boast”). Richard Phillips adds, “The way this is accomplished is through faith alone. . . . Faith is something we do, but it is not a work. Faith is God’s gift through the Holy Spirit, a point Paul makes in Ephesians 2:8-9. . . . Therefore, faith is a way for us to be joined to Jesus Christ for salvation, but a way in which God alone is glorified, because faith is the result of his grace working in us.” Robert Reymond affirms, “However the text is exegeted, when all of its features are taken into account, the conclusion is unavoidable that faith in Jesus Christ is a gift of God.”
From the exegetical evidence, we can see that tou/to can neither have “grace” or “faith” as the antecedent since it is neuter while grace and faith are feminine. No Christian would argue that salvation is “of ourselves,” yet if one says that tou/to cannot refer to faith, then it also cannot refer to grace either since they are the same gender. Moreover, it would be redundant to say that tou/to refers to grace since by definition grace is something given by another. Rather, the antecedent is best understood as a conceptual whole-both grace and faith are gifts of God. Both the surface structure and deep structure affirm this interpretation. And in the broader context of the biblical canon, salvation is attributed to God alone as the sole efficient Cause of brings many sons to glory. Therefore, having considered the exegetical and biblical evidence, Ephesians 2:8a confirms the truth that our salvation, from beginning to end, is a gift from God."
In any case, before we can have a "conditional election" based upon a person's faith, we first have establish how a person obtains saving faith. If, as I have established, faith is itself a gift from God, then we are back to Calvinistic unconditional election, since God would elect on the basis of what He alone can give.
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:53 am
by DannyM
Thanks PL... This is interesting stuff.
I'll respond in full tomorrow. I'm out the office now.
Danny
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:22 am
by Canuckster1127
The definition you provide doesn't identify what it is that God predestines.
I stand by my assertion that Calvinism imputes to God individual predestination in direct contradiction to the entire council of Scripture. I can easily reconcile what God has provided and predestined for those who accept his provision, as God is the one who has foreordained that this is the means by which men can come to know Him. I cannot reconcile Calvinism's stretch which in the end designates God as the author of Evil, (as I've seen you assert in many other places.)
Re: Some general questions about Calvinism.
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:37 am
by puritan lad
That is a common objection, but Scripture is clear that God is the primary creator of evil (Isaiah 45:7). If he's not, then who is? Scripture is also clear that God is sovereignly at work in the evil acts of wicked men. Otherwise, we are left with either the idea that God has no control over evil, or that God is purposely hands off and concerning evil, and has to resort to "Plan B" in order to deal with it.
We already know that God was sovereignly at work in the most evil act in history, the crucifixion of His own Son. Consider how God describes His own soveriegn work concerning Absalom's incest:
"Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house. And I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and before the sun.'" (2 Samuel 12:11-12)
Did God really do that? Some would suggest that God only "permitted" it. Not only does this not agree with Scripture, but for a sovereign God to permit something is to will it.