Evidence for God from Science

Another question is, if one does NOT view the Genesis account as a literal 6 day account, is one still suppose to keep the sabbath and how?

PaulSacramento wrote:The sabbath "rule" is to work 6 days and rest the 7, yes?

Yes. If we had ONLY the words of the 4th commandment to go on. However, we have the whole of scripture to help and most importantly we have Christ's living example of the meaning of the Sabbath and how best to keep it as He is the Lord of the Sabbath.

PaulSacramento wrote:So anyone that works 6 days and rest the 7th is keeping the sabbath?

Basically, yes. Techincally depends on whether God left that open to human interpretation. He didn't. He's constantly reminded His people when that day is exactly. ( Manna in the desert ) His actions during His life on earth. The Jews have been "keeping" the Sabbath for thousands of years. Our calendar is based on this cycle God set up. Ask any Jew when the Sabbath day is. The day is known.

The Sabbath commandment is not just a "one in seven" command in that one can simply choose any day we wish. God has reminded us which is THE day He made holy.
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Basically, yes. Techincally depends on whether God left that open to human interpretation. He didn't. He's constantly reminded His people when that day is exactly. ( Manna in the desert ) His actions during His life on earth. The Jews have been "keeping" the Sabbath for thousands of years. Our calendar is based on this cycle God set up. Ask any Jew when the Sabbath day is. The day is known.

The Sabbath commandment is not just a "one in seven" command in that one can simply choose any day we wish. God has reminded us which is THE day He made holy.

Actually the rabbi I asked was very clear that the Sabbath as it is kept now is kept according to tradtion and not based on any "weekly" calender per say.
Some Ultra-orthodox ones keep based on Jerusalem Standard time for example.
But of course, opinions vary depending on what "lineage" one follows.
BUT if we are to keep the Sabbath, are we also to keep all that goes with it?
Of course every Rabbi I have spoken to reminded me that the Sabbath was between God and Israel as per Exodus 31:16-17
The Sabbath

12 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: p 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who q sanctifies 2 you. 14 r 'You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who 3 profanes it shall surely be put to death; for s whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 'Work shall be done for t six days, but the u seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 'It is v a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for w in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' "

PaulSacramento wrote:Another question is, if one does NOT view the Genesis account as a literal 6 day account, is one still suppose to keep the sabbath and how?

I don't hold to a literal 6 day creation. However God did make one day holy and made that day known.

Is one still supposed to keep it? Is it part of God's Law? Did God not write these with His own hand?

Romans 3:31 wrote:Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Romans 2:13 wrote:For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Romans 7:12 wrote:So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Romans 7:14-16 wrote: We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

Matthew 24:20 wrote: Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

The quote in Matthew is in the context of the last days...obviously it is still supposed to be kept.

Luke 23:56 wrote:But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.

Obviously Jesus had not even mentioned a changing of the Law to them, but in fact had been an example of how the Sabbath was to be kept.

So the "how" is answered best by Christ and His actions on the Sabbaths recorded in the bible.
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PaulSacramento wrote:

Basically, yes. Techincally depends on whether God left that open to human interpretation. He didn't. He's constantly reminded His people when that day is exactly. ( Manna in the desert ) His actions during His life on earth. The Jews have been "keeping" the Sabbath for thousands of years. Our calendar is based on this cycle God set up. Ask any Jew when the Sabbath day is. The day is known.

The Sabbath commandment is not just a "one in seven" command in that one can simply choose any day we wish. God has reminded us which is THE day He made holy.

Actually the rabbi I asked was very clear that the Sabbath as it is kept now is kept according to tradtion and not based on any "weekly" calender per say.
Some Ultra-orthodox ones keep based on Jerusalem Standard time for example.
But of course, opinions vary depending on what "lineage" one follows.
BUT if we are to keep the Sabbath, are we also to keep all that goes with it?
Of course every Rabbi I have spoken to reminded me that the Sabbath was between God and Israel as per Exodus 31:16-17
The Sabbath

12 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: p 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who q sanctifies 2 you. 14 r 'You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who 3 profanes it shall surely be put to death; for s whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 'Work shall be done for t six days, but the u seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 'It is v a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for w in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' "

Romans 10:12,13 wrote:For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

You do believe this don't you?

Galatians 3:28,29 wrote:There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you believe this? We are Abraham's seed.

Romans 11:17-19 wrote: If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."

We are all grafted into the Root. Jesus is the Root. The "natural" branches is Israel and we are grafted INTO THAT SAME TREE. Therefore there is no difference between Jew and Gentile.
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You do know that for some branches of Judaisim, a gentile keeping the sabbath is prohibited, yes?
The Jews view it as a covenant between God and Israel.
Jesus' comments about it were directed towards Jews.

EX:
The Sabbath was given as a sign and covenant to Israel, a Gentile is forbidden to observe the Sabbath or to make a Sabbath of their own, a halachah codified in the Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings 10:9.

A non Jew is not allowed to keep Shabbos. Those that are in the process of converting make sure to do at least one thing on Shabbos that would normally not be allowed. For example they might carry something in their pocket.

5.1) The gentiles mustn't found a new religion and invent their own commandments. The only religious options they have are to obey the Noachide commands or convert to Judaism.

5.2) A gentile must not observe the Shabbat, and he also must not establish for himself a religious festival or a religious day of rest. If he does he is to be beaten in punishment (and according to one opinion he is to be executed in punishment). According to one opinion he must not even establish for himself a secular day of rest or intentionally rest for a whole day. According to most opinions this applies to a ger toshav as well.

5.3) A gentile must not study the Torah. If he does he is to be beaten in punishment. This applies to a ger toshav as well.

PaulSacramento wrote:You do know that for some branches of Judaisim, a gentile keeping the sabbath is prohibited, yes?
The Jews view it as a covenant between God and Israel.
Jesus' comments about it were directed towards Jews.

What difference does that make?

Covenant between God and Israel. Which part of Romans 10:12,13 or Galatians 3:28,29 do you not understand/disagree with?

Jesus was/is a Jew! You're a gentile ( I presume ) worshipping a Jew as Savior and as God Almighty and upholding a Jewish book!!

What is your point here? Just to insert more cherry-picking "proofs"?
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BavarianWheels wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:You do know that for some branches of Judaisim, a gentile keeping the sabbath is prohibited, yes?
The Jews view it as a covenant between God and Israel.
Jesus' comments about it were directed towards Jews.

What difference does that make?

Covenant between God and Israel. Which part of Romans 10:12,13 or Galatians 3:28,29 do you not understand/disagree with?

Jesus was/is a Jew! You're a gentile ( I presume ) worshipping a Jew as Savior and as God Almighty and upholding a Jewish book!!

What is your point here? Just to insert more cherry-picking "proofs"?
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Nope, just showing that according to the hebrews and the orthodox teachings and their literal reading of the law, Gentiles are NOT to keep the Sabbath.
And Paul being an orthodox Jew would have agreed, hence him stating that it is up to the individual to keep a day above any other ( festivals, sabbaths or whatnot).
So, that would mean that when Paul says that there is no difference between Jew and gentile that he is referring to something other than the Sabbath and he says so plainly enough stating that ALL the cal on the name of the Lord will be saved, whether Jew or gentile ( of course for the Jew, they believed that was NOT the case).

PaulSacramento wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:You do know that for some branches of Judaisim, a gentile keeping the sabbath is prohibited, yes?
The Jews view it as a covenant between God and Israel.
Jesus' comments about it were directed towards Jews.

What difference does that make?

Covenant between God and Israel. Which part of Romans 10:12,13 or Galatians 3:28,29 do you not understand/disagree with?

Jesus was/is a Jew! You're a gentile ( I presume ) worshipping a Jew as Savior and as God Almighty and upholding a Jewish book!!

What is your point here? Just to insert more cherry-picking "proofs"?
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Nope, just showing that according to the hebrews and the orthodox teachings and their literal reading of the law, Gentiles are NOT to keep the Sabbath.

Great. However that ignores the fact that the Sabbath was made holy prior to any Hebrew/Jew and more so prior to sin entering creation!

PaulSacramento wrote:And Paul being an orthodox Jew would have agreed, hence him stating that it is up to the individual to keep a day above any other ( festivals, sabbaths or whatnot).

Agreed. Speaking of sabbaths of days, weeks, and years and NOT of the Sabbath commandment which clearly by it's own wording from God Himself is a memorial to creation and NOT A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME as evidenced also by the fact that it was made holy prior to sin.

PaulSacramento wrote:So, that would mean that when Paul says that there is no difference between Jew and gentile that he is referring to something other than the Sabbath and he says so plainly enough stating that ALL the cal on the name of the Lord will be saved, whether Jew or gentile ( of course for the Jew, they believed that was NOT the case).

Correct. He's not referring to the Sabbath...as it is separate and He upholds.

What difference does it make WHAT the Jew believes?
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This is a very interesting thread. Good arguments from both sides.

PaulSacramento wrote:You do know that for some branches of Judaisim, a gentile keeping the sabbath is prohibited, yes?
The Jews view it as a covenant between God and Israel.
Jesus' comments about it were directed towards Jews.

EX:
The Sabbath was given as a sign and covenant to Israel, a Gentile is forbidden to observe the Sabbath or to make a Sabbath of their own, a halachah codified in the Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings 10:9.

A non Jew is not allowed to keep Shabbos. Those that are in the process of converting make sure to do at least one thing on Shabbos that would normally not be allowed. For example they might carry something in their pocket.

5.1) The gentiles mustn't found a new religion and invent their own commandments. The only religious options they have are to obey the Noachide commands or convert to Judaism.

5.2) A gentile must not observe the Shabbat, and he also must not establish for himself a religious festival or a religious day of rest. If he does he is to be beaten in punishment (and according to one opinion he is to be executed in punishment). According to one opinion he must not even establish for himself a secular day of rest or intentionally rest for a whole day. According to most opinions this applies to a ger toshav as well.

5.3) A gentile must not study the Torah. If he does he is to be beaten in punishment. This applies to a ger toshav as well.

This may be true, but this is the Oral Torah. The Talmud. There are also differing opinions in the Talmud, as Rabbi Meir said that a Gentile who studies Torah is on the same level as the kohen hagadol (high priest)! Besides, even though this may be a Jewish interpretation of what the Bible says, that doesn't make it more accurate. I don't think it holds weight on this debate, although it is interesting.

I tend to lean towards Messianic Judaism, so I'm sure both sides in this thread will find things to disagree with me on, but, I do believe the question of keeping Sabbath is an important one to ask.

BavarianWheels wrote:

jlay wrote:

Firstly, you ignore that it ( the 10 ) is a ministry of death ONLY to sinners.

According to whom?

Logic.

I found my "logic". It had eluded me and I forgot to go back and find it.

1 Timothy 1:8-11 wrote:We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that law* is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

The Law points to sin ( Romans 7:7 ) therefore the Law ( again speaking of the 10 ) was not "made" for the righteous since the righteous live according to the Spirit ( Romans 7:14 and Romans 8:4-14 ) and naturally do that which the Law requires.
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cheezerrox wrote:This is a very interesting thread. Good arguments from both sides.

PaulSacramento wrote:You do know that for some branches of Judaisim, a gentile keeping the sabbath is prohibited, yes?
The Jews view it as a covenant between God and Israel.
Jesus' comments about it were directed towards Jews.

EX:
The Sabbath was given as a sign and covenant to Israel, a Gentile is forbidden to observe the Sabbath or to make a Sabbath of their own, a halachah codified in the Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings 10:9.

A non Jew is not allowed to keep Shabbos. Those that are in the process of converting make sure to do at least one thing on Shabbos that would normally not be allowed. For example they might carry something in their pocket.

5.1) The gentiles mustn't found a new religion and invent their own commandments. The only religious options they have are to obey the Noachide commands or convert to Judaism.

5.2) A gentile must not observe the Shabbat, and he also must not establish for himself a religious festival or a religious day of rest. If he does he is to be beaten in punishment (and according to one opinion he is to be executed in punishment). According to one opinion he must not even establish for himself a secular day of rest or intentionally rest for a whole day. According to most opinions this applies to a ger toshav as well.

5.3) A gentile must not study the Torah. If he does he is to be beaten in punishment. This applies to a ger toshav as well.

This may be true, but this is the Oral Torah. The Talmud. There are also differing opinions in the Talmud, as Rabbi Meir said that a Gentile who studies Torah is on the same level as the kohen hagadol (high priest)! Besides, even though this may be a Jewish interpretation of what the Bible says, that doesn't make it more accurate. I don't think it holds weight on this debate, although it is interesting.

I tend to lean towards Messianic Judaism, so I'm sure both sides in this thread will find things to disagree with me on, but, I do believe the question of keeping Sabbath is an important one to ask.

yes, that was the Talmud, but the majority consensus by Hebrew scholars is also the Gentiles were not under the Sabbath (though they would get the day of rest if living/working under a Hebrew).
The Sabbath was a covenant between God and Israel proper and while a christian could indeed keep the sabbath if he choose to, he was not under the Peneateuchal Law to do so.
Lets also be clear that for a 1st century Jew, to speak of the Law was to speak of the Moasaic Law, not just the 10 commandments.

We notice that in the NT, when the commandments are spoken off, the Sabbath is not mentioned.
We notice that the Jerusalem council did NOT make a statement about gentiles keeping the sabbath.
We notice that Paul stated on two differen occasions that the keeping of special days was up to the indivudual.

My view?
If one choose to keep the sabbath, then they should.
If one chooses not to, they shouldn't ( God wouldn't want a person to keep the Sabbath is they didn't want to since that goes against the spirit of the Sabbath).
Neither should judge the other.

PaulSacramento wrote:yes, that was the Talmud, but the majority consensus by Hebrew scholars is also the Gentiles were not under the Sabbath (though they would get the day of rest if living/working under a Hebrew).

So our faith now is based on majority consensus. Got it.

PaulSacramento wrote:The Sabbath was a covenant between God and Israel proper and while a christian could indeed keep the sabbath if he choose to, he was not under the Peneateuchal Law to do so.

Agreed. Only under God's handwritten perpetual Law that Paul upholds, doesn't necessarily mention as it was "the custom" and therefore a "given" AND that Jesus lived as example of.

PaulSacramento wrote:Lets also be clear that for a 1st century Jew, to speak of the Law was to speak of the Moasaic Law, not just the 10 commandments.

Not necessarily. The Jews knew the place of the ceremonial laws and that of God's Law. One was a book, the other on tablets of stone placed, by God's word to do so, inside the ark of the covenant. A covenant that has not changed. ( Romans 4:1 Romans 4:12,13 Galatians 3:6-9 ... )

PaulSacramento wrote:We notice that in the NT, when the commandments are spoken off, the Sabbath is not mentioned.

Which bible are you reading?

Matthew 12:1-12 -- Mentioned 7 times directly as a commandment and clarified the HOW by Jesus.
Mark 2:23-28 -- Mentioned 5 times directly as a commandment again clarified by Jesus.
Mark 3:1-6 -- Mentioned twice directly as a commandment. AND FURTHERMORE THE REASON THE PHARISEES PLOTTED TO KILL JESUS!!
Luke 4:16 -- as was His custom...weekly in obedience to His own commandment.
Luke 6:1-11 -- Same as in Mark.
Luke 13:10-17 -- Mentioned 5 times
Luke 14:1-6 -- Mentioned 3 times
Luke 23:54-56 -- in obedience to the...??? Commandment.
Acts 1:12 -- "a Sabbath day's walk...commandment ( although admittedly this was a "tradition of men" in their keeping of it, but it was what they knew and how they accounted for the distance walked. )
Acts 15:21 -- preached since Moses on every...

...and there's others.

PaulSacramento wrote:We notice that the Jerusalem council did NOT make a statement about gentiles keeping the sabbath.

While the Jerusalem council did not, Jesus did. ( Mark 2:27 ) Now who's word are you going to accept as truth?
( Romans 3:29-31 Romans 7:23 )

PaulSacramento wrote:We notice that Paul stated on two differen occasions that the keeping of special days was up to the indivudual.

And I've clearly shown that these "sabbaths" are the sabbaths of days, of weeks, and of years that were celebrated and NOT the Sabbath of the commandments.

PaulSacramento wrote:My view?
If one choose to keep the sabbath, then they should.
If one chooses not to, they shouldn't ( God wouldn't want a person to keep the Sabbath is they didn't want to since that goes against the spirit of the Sabbath).
Neither should judge the other.

The Sabbath is not a "choice" as it were if the Law points to sin. ( Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20 )
Do you have a choice to murder or not? Can you murder willfully and snub your nose at God and say, "It's a choice for the Gentile." No...of course not because you say "your view" is that those that live by the Spirit can choose NOT to obey God. ( Romans 8:5-11 ) Whereas the bible ( Paul ) says that the Spirit submits to God's Law...and we live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.

Let me explain something quickly.

The Law is LIFE to the righteous and those that live according to the Spirit.

Humans are sinful from conception so the Law is death in that the Law condemns, but we, through Christ ARE DEAD. According to the Law, our penalty of sin is paid through Christ. Romans 7 speaks of this. Romans 8:3 speaks directly to this. But the Law was never put into place to save, It can't save a sinner. It can only condemn a sinner. On the flip side, it establishes a righteous person as righteous as it testifies that the person is sinless if living according to the Spirit. Again, we are sinners and therefore in Christ we are dead and set free from the condemnation of the Law. ( Romans 8:1,2 ) Please reread that part of scripture. We are set free from the condemnation of the Law. Totally different from being "released from the Law" as some interpret it to mean we are released from keeping the Law.

Just like in secular life. You get a speeding ticket, you're under the law until you've paid the ticket. Once the ticket is paid, you are released from the condemnation of the law, yet it doesn't allow you to from that point on speed at will...does it?

Logic.
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Bav, you keep the sabbath, as one day holier than others. I'll see every day as being equal. My conscience is clear on this issue. As I'm sure your's is as well.

Anything other than that, and we're going around in circles.

RickD wrote:Bav, you keep the sabbath, as one day holier than others.

Exodus 20:11 wrote: [...] Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

I'll simply do as God has written. You do as you please...as your tradition dictates.

RickD wrote:I'll see every day as being equal. My conscience is clear on this issue. As I'm sure your's is as well.

Clearly God doesn't see every day as equal if He blessed ONE and MADE IT holy. Simple logic.

RickD wrote:Anything other than that, and we're going around in circles.

It is you going in circles. On one hand affirming God's Law and on the other saying God Law is relative.
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